doctordoolittle
Well-Known Member
I know there have been quite a lot of posts on ulcers and I have gone back and read a lot of your advice. However I have a few specific questions about my particular horse/scenario.
Horse is Welsh X TB 16.2hh, 15 years old who I have had for nearly 3 years. Previously I have had him turned out all year round during the day (albeit with limited grass in winter) and fed ad lib hay. I also had him on magnesium oxide as he was very overweight when I got him.(which i have recently heard can help ulcers) He was on garlic for a while due to flies but not for over a year (link to ulcers). Moved counties last summer and he is now on full livery due to my work. There is no winter turnout on grass, we are allowed to turnout in the school and he goes on a horsewalker for stretch of legs. There is only haylage available which is v good quality.
Autumn time last year I noticed his droppings were v loose and thought it was likely due to the haylage. He also has put weight on more easily with having more haylage over winter and lack of turnout for some exercise. I stopped feeding the magnesium oxide as this can cause loose droppings and I had heard there was some controversy regarding mg and liver function. Schooling has been erratic over winter due to my illness.
When I started working him regularly in spring I noticed that he was lethargic (but he was carrying extra weight) and not keen on working and started being funny when girthing (at time thought it was due to saddle which was checked and altered etc) and was tense over his back which even chiro noticed. Generally though he is a pretty happy chappy and doesn't complain about anything. For him his coat condition wasn't quite as it normally is but to everyone else he looked fine. I had some bloods done which showed that he was anaemic. He has had low grade anaemia for quite a while which was initially thought to be linked to a virus that he had.
He has been scoped today and I saw the video and there was pretty extensive gastric ulceration. In the glandular mucosa around the pylorus there was some grade 2-3 ulcers and in the squamous mucosa there was extensive grade 2 with some areas of grade 3 and some scarring.
So I am now going to treat as per vets advice with one month gastroguard and equitop pronutrin. I know that its £££ but hoping insurance will pay out and ive never claimed before! and also I know that no matter how much you change the management, give normal antacids etc as long as they have ulcers and not treated they will not heal properly. So will do that and then have repeat scope in 1 months time.
However I obviously want to try and look at the cause and change the management (vet suggested treating and seeing if that makes a difference to him and if it makes a big difference then try and change management as much as possible - only problem is it was mainly when he was ridden I noticed changes in him and hes currently on box rest due to lameness (another long story!)) so I would rather change management as much as I can to give him the best possible chance of remission and being comfortable etc. So when looking for cause, its possible he has had them for many years with flare or only just developed, cant tell from the lesions. Before I had him he was on restricted turnout and fed lots of cereals. So looking at whats changed recently...
So what are likely factors in this case?
1)haylage?
2)less than ideal amount of fibre (less haylage given than previous amount of hay due to weight and loose droppings)
3)no winter turnout
4) stopping magnesium oxide?
5) garlic?
6) stress of not being worked over winter and not turned out/much time to play?
7)period of time over winter when he had handful of mix in feed as wouldnt eat it
Likely to be multifactorial and combination of above. what do you think?
So looking at trying to alter these:
1)He is fed haylage, I try to make sure he has something at all times but he was putting on quite a lot of weight so was cut down slightly and fed in haynets. he does get a decent amount and has access at most times except overnight when he probably scoffs it all by midnight. Also to get more fibre out of haylage due to water content would need to feed more! (leading to fatter horse with looser droppings!) So I know that the best solution would be to feed hay - could then give it more ad lib with less problems. Problem is yard wont provide it so will have to look at buying it myself and will unlikely get livery discount. Also vet said its vital he has access to hay all day so will make sure yard give him ad lib during day ( I assumed they do but will actually have to press the point!) as apparently this is worse than no fibre overnight. So ad lib hay double netted, more than one net in stable to make him move between them was suggested by vet.
2) Feed - currently on 1/2 scoop Alfa A (was on hi fi over winter but swapped back as its meant to be better for ulcers) and handful of pony nuts twice a day. Has Haemavite, suppleaze gold, seaweed for coat and fennel for gassy bowels. Currently had pony nuts in snack ball few times a day whilst on box rest. I did feed topspec until few months ago when i cut it out due to weight. is dengie Alfa A the best form of alfa a chaff to feed? Would he benefit from some speedibeet instead of pony nuts to a)give him more energy and b)disguise all the supplements?! Should i consider restarting magnesium oxide? Any evidence that fennel or seaweed are problematic in ulcers?Also need to check the make of pony nuts and look at starch content. Did wonder whether some sort of fibre feed overnight like fast fibre would be good?
3)Turnout - no option currently as he has to be on box rest. Unsure how long this will be for. having lameness workup in 1 weeks time so will hopefully have better idea then (started today but was shod yesterday so was showing signs of foot pain so have to wait for it to settle!) But long term obviously the longer the better. unfortunately he isnt a horse that really likes to stay out especially in rubbish weather. Yard has no turnout over winter but vet thinks that as long as feeding adequate amounts of hay should be ok. I really don't want to move yards as it is a really good one and there is hardly any winter turnout at part/full livery yards in this area but will be looking into possibilities.
4) work/stress - doesn't really have a stressful life! Out of work at moment (although i suppose could cause him stress? as i think he quite likes to work) and when I start again (fingers crossed!!) will only be schooling 3-5 times a week with perhaps a show a month (dressage). Over winter will make conscious effort to make sure he had daily playtime/interaction/some sort of exercise other than horsewalker.
In terms of what to feed to reduce likelihood of re-occurence in the long term I have identified the following options:
1) Coligone - buffers, yeasacc and prebiotics
2)Neigh Lox - antacid
3) gastrisoothe herbal blend - slippery elm and aloe vera and herbs
4) succeed - oat flour and oil, amino acids and yeast
5) prebiotics - restart topspec? or pink powder? or haylage balancer - has natural antacid and protective clay? (succeed and coligoen would provide biotics)
I have heard antacids rarely make a difference but they can help and that products that coat the stomach are useful.
So can anyone give me an idea of their experience with these products and the cost per month?
Sorry for the v long post and lots of questions. Any advice and help would be much appreciated!!
Very concerned horse-mother from lancashire :S
Horse is Welsh X TB 16.2hh, 15 years old who I have had for nearly 3 years. Previously I have had him turned out all year round during the day (albeit with limited grass in winter) and fed ad lib hay. I also had him on magnesium oxide as he was very overweight when I got him.(which i have recently heard can help ulcers) He was on garlic for a while due to flies but not for over a year (link to ulcers). Moved counties last summer and he is now on full livery due to my work. There is no winter turnout on grass, we are allowed to turnout in the school and he goes on a horsewalker for stretch of legs. There is only haylage available which is v good quality.
Autumn time last year I noticed his droppings were v loose and thought it was likely due to the haylage. He also has put weight on more easily with having more haylage over winter and lack of turnout for some exercise. I stopped feeding the magnesium oxide as this can cause loose droppings and I had heard there was some controversy regarding mg and liver function. Schooling has been erratic over winter due to my illness.
When I started working him regularly in spring I noticed that he was lethargic (but he was carrying extra weight) and not keen on working and started being funny when girthing (at time thought it was due to saddle which was checked and altered etc) and was tense over his back which even chiro noticed. Generally though he is a pretty happy chappy and doesn't complain about anything. For him his coat condition wasn't quite as it normally is but to everyone else he looked fine. I had some bloods done which showed that he was anaemic. He has had low grade anaemia for quite a while which was initially thought to be linked to a virus that he had.
He has been scoped today and I saw the video and there was pretty extensive gastric ulceration. In the glandular mucosa around the pylorus there was some grade 2-3 ulcers and in the squamous mucosa there was extensive grade 2 with some areas of grade 3 and some scarring.
So I am now going to treat as per vets advice with one month gastroguard and equitop pronutrin. I know that its £££ but hoping insurance will pay out and ive never claimed before! and also I know that no matter how much you change the management, give normal antacids etc as long as they have ulcers and not treated they will not heal properly. So will do that and then have repeat scope in 1 months time.
However I obviously want to try and look at the cause and change the management (vet suggested treating and seeing if that makes a difference to him and if it makes a big difference then try and change management as much as possible - only problem is it was mainly when he was ridden I noticed changes in him and hes currently on box rest due to lameness (another long story!)) so I would rather change management as much as I can to give him the best possible chance of remission and being comfortable etc. So when looking for cause, its possible he has had them for many years with flare or only just developed, cant tell from the lesions. Before I had him he was on restricted turnout and fed lots of cereals. So looking at whats changed recently...
So what are likely factors in this case?
1)haylage?
2)less than ideal amount of fibre (less haylage given than previous amount of hay due to weight and loose droppings)
3)no winter turnout
4) stopping magnesium oxide?
5) garlic?
6) stress of not being worked over winter and not turned out/much time to play?
7)period of time over winter when he had handful of mix in feed as wouldnt eat it
Likely to be multifactorial and combination of above. what do you think?
So looking at trying to alter these:
1)He is fed haylage, I try to make sure he has something at all times but he was putting on quite a lot of weight so was cut down slightly and fed in haynets. he does get a decent amount and has access at most times except overnight when he probably scoffs it all by midnight. Also to get more fibre out of haylage due to water content would need to feed more! (leading to fatter horse with looser droppings!) So I know that the best solution would be to feed hay - could then give it more ad lib with less problems. Problem is yard wont provide it so will have to look at buying it myself and will unlikely get livery discount. Also vet said its vital he has access to hay all day so will make sure yard give him ad lib during day ( I assumed they do but will actually have to press the point!) as apparently this is worse than no fibre overnight. So ad lib hay double netted, more than one net in stable to make him move between them was suggested by vet.
2) Feed - currently on 1/2 scoop Alfa A (was on hi fi over winter but swapped back as its meant to be better for ulcers) and handful of pony nuts twice a day. Has Haemavite, suppleaze gold, seaweed for coat and fennel for gassy bowels. Currently had pony nuts in snack ball few times a day whilst on box rest. I did feed topspec until few months ago when i cut it out due to weight. is dengie Alfa A the best form of alfa a chaff to feed? Would he benefit from some speedibeet instead of pony nuts to a)give him more energy and b)disguise all the supplements?! Should i consider restarting magnesium oxide? Any evidence that fennel or seaweed are problematic in ulcers?Also need to check the make of pony nuts and look at starch content. Did wonder whether some sort of fibre feed overnight like fast fibre would be good?
3)Turnout - no option currently as he has to be on box rest. Unsure how long this will be for. having lameness workup in 1 weeks time so will hopefully have better idea then (started today but was shod yesterday so was showing signs of foot pain so have to wait for it to settle!) But long term obviously the longer the better. unfortunately he isnt a horse that really likes to stay out especially in rubbish weather. Yard has no turnout over winter but vet thinks that as long as feeding adequate amounts of hay should be ok. I really don't want to move yards as it is a really good one and there is hardly any winter turnout at part/full livery yards in this area but will be looking into possibilities.
4) work/stress - doesn't really have a stressful life! Out of work at moment (although i suppose could cause him stress? as i think he quite likes to work) and when I start again (fingers crossed!!) will only be schooling 3-5 times a week with perhaps a show a month (dressage). Over winter will make conscious effort to make sure he had daily playtime/interaction/some sort of exercise other than horsewalker.
In terms of what to feed to reduce likelihood of re-occurence in the long term I have identified the following options:
1) Coligone - buffers, yeasacc and prebiotics
2)Neigh Lox - antacid
3) gastrisoothe herbal blend - slippery elm and aloe vera and herbs
4) succeed - oat flour and oil, amino acids and yeast
5) prebiotics - restart topspec? or pink powder? or haylage balancer - has natural antacid and protective clay? (succeed and coligoen would provide biotics)
I have heard antacids rarely make a difference but they can help and that products that coat the stomach are useful.
So can anyone give me an idea of their experience with these products and the cost per month?
Sorry for the v long post and lots of questions. Any advice and help would be much appreciated!!
Very concerned horse-mother from lancashire :S
