Gastric Ulcers Now Gone but horse still won't trot - anyone?

Have been thinking about this. Could it be your grass if it is high in potassium it may trigger the behaviour? I was going to suggest salt but in view of the ulcers I would suggest that something like Safesalt from Science supplements might be worth a try and also they do a trial pack of Prokalm which can have astounding effects if it is a stress related thing. Years ago I had a nappy horse that upset all the others and me too. We all upset each other in the end. It was grass based as the fields were grazed for years and never fertilised, salt sorted them out I then calmed down too. Nappy horse still nappy but only hated hacking out alone so we just avoided that. He competed fine even cross country so just had to give him best on that one.
 
I have got them on a mycotoxin binder called mycosorb due to someone else posting about toxins developing on clover and I have a lot of clover in the grazing. They have free access to a salt lick in the field. I had my soil tested last year and the land is acidic but I will dig out the results and see what the potassium levels are thanks Old Hand.



old hand said:
Have been thinking about this. Could it be your grass if it is high in potassium it may trigger the behaviour? I was going to suggest salt but in view of the ulcers I would suggest that something like Safesalt from Science supplements might be worth a try and also they do a trial pack of Prokalm which can have astounding effects if it is a stress related thing. Years ago I had a nappy horse that upset all the others and me too. We all upset each other in the end. It was grass based as the fields were grazed for years and never fertilised, salt sorted them out I then calmed down too. Nappy horse still nappy but only hated hacking out alone so we just avoided that. He competed fine even cross country so just had to give him best on that one.
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OP I suggest you take a look at the website www.calmhealthyhorses.com it explains all about potassium inbalances caused by things like clover and high calcium levels in feed.
All of mine get 2 tablespoons of salt daily in their feed it reall is NOT suffice just to offer salt licks in the field. The website is very interesting indeed. I buy a 25 kg bag of sea salt online it lasts for ages.
Another informative site about ulcers is this
http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm

I have done so much research in the past for my WBs problems hence the herbal gut remedy etc. these things worked for my boy who is changed beyond recognition.
 
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Mine has scoped for ulcers showing grade III ,currently on a course of Ulcergold full dose for 1 month ( re scoping Wednesday) hopefully they will be able to see if she has glandular / pyloric this time as madambe had been eating shavings !!! I also suspect she has hind gut problems so I've removed all known irritants wheat feed,oat feed, sugar beetand alfalfa from diet. Currently on micronised linseed, chaff ( from agrobs) with pre/pro biopics and trying l glutamine. Starting simple if symptoms go happy days if not will then try the million supplements out there. My thinking is hind gut acidosis cause by to much u digested food creating lactose changing ph = unhappy. Keep feeds small and free from as much crap as possible with plenty of hay/grass we should see a difference. And also remove as much stress as possible which is also a trigger.
 
I have started adding salt to the diet now thanks.


YasandCrystal said:
OP I suggest you take a look at the website www.calmhealthyhorses.com it explains all about potassium inbalances caused by things like clover and high calcium levels in feed.
All of mine get 2 tablespoons of salt daily in their feed it reall is NOT suffice just to offer salt licks in the field. The website is very interesting indeed. I buy a 25 kg bag of sea salt online it lasts for ages.
Another informative site about ulcers is this
http://www.lunatunesfreestyles.com/horse_ulcers.htm

I have done so much research in the past for my WBs problems hence the herbal gut remedy etc. these things worked for my boy who is changed beyond recognition.
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Both horses went to equine hospital to see specialist dealing with this last Friday. As they were scoped clear of grade iv pyloric ulcers 3 weeks ago but still won't trot I asked for further investigation. Ultrasound of colon was ok, blood tests were ok, they took a biopsy from colon and poo to test for nasties and I am waiting for results. Specialist has advised that pyloric ulcers take a long time to heal (there can be inflammation underneath still healing although the top looks healed) so we agree to give the horses another 2 months in the field and then if no improvement he would have to start "thinking outside the box". He said he could try what they do with foals - get poo from a healthy horse and tube it into the stomachs of my horses to reintroduce healthy gut flora. Both my vet and the specialist advised feeding a probiotic that reaches the hind gut - I can't remember the name now but apparently there are only 2 that are proven to get to the hind gut. I have bought some from the vet but just discovered I can buy it from my feed merchant too. While the gelding still kicks out when groomed the mare can now be touched all over with no response. We also managed to get her to trot in hand on the yard the other day which surprised me so I am cautiously hoping she is finally starting to improve after 3 months. The gelding seems to be taking a bit longer.



Lulup said:
Any update on this situation? I'm following with interest x
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Ok :( have you removed all nasties out of diet ? Sugar/starch/soya/wheat feed/oat feed sugarbeet and basically anything chemical based that can irritate gut. We had a big difference on doing this. When my girl lost her forward gear, and did the turning in rearing trick very reluctant to bend ,sore back,grumpy,spooky............. Diagnoised with KS,PSD hinds,SI pain , Osteo hocks ulcers which all have very similar symptoms and behaviours. A complete nightmare when she starts to go off as process of elimination to find which bit is causing the trouble.
 
They are out on grass 24/7 with hay that hasn't been sprayed with propionic acid. Probiotic is put in a small amount of chaff so it can't be down to food they are eating at the moment.



Darcydoo said:
Ok :( have you removed all nasties out of diet ? Sugar/starch/soya/wheat feed/oat feed sugarbeet and basically anything chemical based that can irritate gut. We had a big difference on doing this. When my girl lost her forward gear, and did the turning in rearing trick very reluctant to bend ,sore back,grumpy,spooky............. Diagnoised with KS,PSD hinds,SI pain , Osteo hocks ulcers which all have very similar symptoms and behaviours. A complete nightmare when she starts to go off as process of elimination to find which bit is causing the trouble.
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Darcydoo said:
Ok :( have you removed all nasties out of diet ? Sugar/starch/soya/wheat feed/oat feed sugarbeet and basically anything chemical based that can irritate gut.
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Just out of interest darydoo, if you were to irradiate all of those things from the diet what would you feed? (I am in a similar position to vanrim). I am currently trying to remove those things but finding it hard as I need to feed hard feed due to the pills/supplements mine has.

Finding it particularly difficult to irradiate soya!
 
Mine gets Agrobs chaff totally free of all nasties( red rufus ) micronised linseed and her hoof sup and yea saac. She's a TB so just up the linseed in winter. Forage plus are good supps. I also stay away from alfalfa as she's also barefoot and makes the daft and footy. L glutamine is also helpful . X
 
Company's like Thunderbrooks,Agrobs and simple systems good stay clear of the commercial big feed company's feed straights so you know what your feeding.
 
Have you tried treating for liver fluke? They can make horses very lethargic, when mine had fluke most of them found trotting up the field a huge effort. Fasinex is fairly safe so wouldn't harm to dose them and rule it out, although it takes a few weeks to see a difference in them.
 
I believe the SS feed caused grade iv gastric ulcers in both my horses. Having spoken to a friend's husband who used to work for Spillers - all major feed companies spend huge amounts of money testing their products and trialing them before releasing on the open market to make sure they are safe. With huge turnovers we would all know about it if people were having problems with one of their feeds. These smaller companies do not have the budgets to test or trial. When I asked SS if I was soaking the Lucie Nuts for too long and they were going off I was gobsmacked with their reply "You should be ok for up to 24 hrs in this weather" - DON'T THEY ACTUALLY KNOW!!!!!! They don't even put any advise on the bag as to how long you should soak for - they just expect you to guess.
This has cost me £4k as I had to pay myself and the ulcers on both horses only started to improve once I had changed back to good old Dodson and Horrell. I have come across other people on these forums whose horses have actually colicked on the SS feed. I consider myself lucky that I realised in time that the food was making my horses ill - before they got colic or colitis. I would now NEVER use feed from a company that has not tested it first.

Darcydoo said:
Company's like Thunderbrooks,Agrobs and simple systems good stay clear of the commercial big feed company's feed straights so you know what your feeding.
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Liver Fluke would have shown up on the blood tests and these were all ok for both horses.

Silverfire said:
Have you tried treating for liver fluke? They can make horses very lethargic, when mine had fluke most of them found trotting up the field a huge effort. Fasinex is fairly safe so wouldn't harm to dose them and rule it out, although it takes a few weeks to see a difference in them.
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vanrim said:
Liver Fluke would have shown up on the blood tests and these were all ok for both horses.
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Actually they don't always, unless horse is very poor. Some might have a mild anemia. My horses had fluke back in 2013. I blood tested three, the two worst weight wise and the third one who was just lethargic no obvious weight loss. The two had raised Fibrinogen and were Anemic but had normal WBC, GGT and Albumin, the third her GGT was just over normal at 51 (5-50). All were treated with Fasinex twice two weeks apart, and six weeks later blood tested back to normal and the two were slowly regaining weight and the third no longer lethargic, their GGT all tested lower too.
I remember reading an article somewhere about the first recorded cases of liver fluke in horses back in the 1950's or 60's. It said that often there was no change to bloodwork but horses would be lethargic - fit racehorses and hunters would tire easily, showjumpers refuse fences and broodmares would rapidly lose weight after foaling.
Probably your horses don't have fluke but if you don't find anything else then it may be worth thinking about.
 
Thanks for taking the time to post and I will certainly mention it to my vet. I have just googled it and apparently it is on the rise in the North West. You learn such a lot on these forums!


Silverfire said:
Actually they don't always, unless horse is very poor. Some might have a mild anemia. My horses had fluke back in 2013. I blood tested three, the two worst weight wise and the third one who was just lethargic no obvious weight loss. The two had raised Fibrinogen and were Anemic but had normal WBC, GGT and Albumin, the third her GGT was just over normal at 51 (5-50). All were treated with Fasinex twice two weeks apart, and six weeks later blood tested back to normal and the two were slowly regaining weight and the third no longer lethargic, their GGT all tested lower too.
I remember reading an article somewhere about the first recorded cases of liver fluke in horses back in the 1950's or 60's. It said that often there was no change to bloodwork but horses would be lethargic - fit racehorses and hunters would tire easily, showjumpers refuse fences and broodmares would rapidly lose weight after foaling.
Probably your horses don't have fluke but if you don't find anything else then it may be worth thinking about.
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Just to say after mine went on to SS he had a huge reaction and months later with substantial vets fees still isn't right, I had a feeling it was the feed and swapped him straight back to his Top Spec feed. I've had him 11yrs and he has always been very straightforward to do, he is such a good doer and has always rippled with energy. He was blood tested, major organ functions fine but massively raised fibrynogen levels which calmed down 4wks later. The lethargy was my biggest worry as so unlike him, my vet said allergy/viral infection - I still don't feel he is 100% despite the blood tests showing within normal levels - never ever again will I be persuaded to go to a small feed company & their attitude to me was dreadful, utter denial!!
 
Vanrim that is very interesting. I changed to SS last week for my mare who has been thru a lot during last 6 months (had peritonitis whilst on box rest for PSD and a clot in her jugular vein). Have been concerns over her gut health after peritonitis and poss ulcers - girthy and ruggy. Swapped over to SS as heard good things and its more natural no wheat / molasses etc. First feed was on the Friday - mixed in with old feed. Rode her in the school on the Monday and OMG ... she was awful. Reluctant to go forward , disunited , hoppy rearing , terrible transitions. First thing I said to trainer was my goodness I would think this is a case of bad ulcers? After everything bother myself and she have been thru I have almost decided I wont put her thru further poking and prodding and maybe I should turn her away. But maybe it was the feed. It was the only thing that had changed? I stopped it straight away and she is back on basic D&H high fibre nuts again. riding her in the school tomorrow and vet wants an update. Any thoughts ?
 
Have you had her back checked?? mine had ulcers and she had back problems due to the way she was holding herself, i went to Mark Windsor worked wonders!!! also i could not ride in the manage even though she was ulcer free she would just not go forward so i decided to make life fun for her and did lots of hacking and canter work in big fields made a massive difference changing her whole routine of work, now she is forward and easy to ride, i think she associated the manage with pain!!! worth a try hun wish you all the best xxxxxx
 
Suddenly occurred that I should add on from my previous post to say that having been so worried about the lethargy, my very forward horse would just utterly give up like the power switch had been turned off after a few minutes of riding I decided to give him a blood detox. Was amazed at the results after a few days on Global Herbs restore, it really perked him up, might be worth a try. I am still not convinced he is 100% but he has been a lot better and happier since, but I still think there might be something underlying going on - my vet also said that the best thing to avoid ulcers is plenty of turnout and good old fashioned grass! Good luck I completely understand your frustration - mine has also become very stale in the school which he never was before, am just trying to build up some muscle in walk on some hilly hacks to help get him a bit fitter in the hope that loss of condition could be adding to it!
 
This is funny because I had the vet check their backs last week. Both horses are very stiff so I have a physio coming on Sunday. If this doesn't help I will look into taking them to Ashbrook as Mark Windsor does clinics there. I have also decided that if they get to a point where I can sit on them I will ride in the field and not the manage to keep things easy for them.




fuzzle said:
Have you had her back checked?? mine had ulcers and she had back problems due to the way she was holding herself, i went to Mark Windsor worked wonders!!! also i could not ride in the manage even though she was ulcer free she would just not go forward so i decided to make life fun for her and did lots of hacking and canter work in big fields made a massive difference changing her whole routine of work, now she is forward and easy to ride, i think she associated the manage with pain!!! worth a try hun wish you all the best xxxxxx
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I'm convinced the clover was causing hind gut with mine and like you after changing paddock and feeds she is a different horse
 
I was really interested to read this thread, Catembi could have been writing about my horse. Very interested to hear any updates. My horse doesn't react as violently as yours, Vanrim, she just 'shuts down'. Been down the Omeprazole route also. She has actually been a little bit better since farrier put her in heartbar shoes as she has a foot imbalance on RF and she is stronger on this diagonal pair. She has a thickened suspensory on her RH so this is always in my mind too - she is like the girl with the curl - when she is good, she is very very good, but when she is bad, she is horrid! I'm not prepared to whip her till she moves as directed by vet, who thought it was behavioural.
 
Hi there

I've been reading this thread with interest as my gelding was successfully treated for ulcers last year after a summer of awful behaviour and improved dramatically. Bad behaviour started again in Jan so had him scoped again and found new ulcer. He has been bone scanned and nerve blocked as well to find out if underlying cause but nothing major showed up.

He has finished 4th week of full dose of gg as is slightly better but still snappy, girthy, air bites when mounting and won't trot in the arena. Just plants and kicks out. Although fine lunging and happy as Larry out hacking.

Did your horse improve in the arena in the end? Mine was scoped clear today but still will not trot, sometimes he will work through the planting and do some really lovely work but I hate pushing him through in case he's still in pain.

Am wondering hind gut issue? Although vet dismissive :/

Any advice on hind gut supplement?

Thanks


fuzzle said:
Have you had her back checked?? mine had ulcers and she had back problems due to the way she was holding herself, i went to Mark Windsor worked wonders!!! also i could not ride in the manage even though she was ulcer free she would just not go forward so i decided to make life fun for her and did lots of hacking and canter work in big fields made a massive difference changing her whole routine of work, now she is forward and easy to ride, i think she associated the manage with pain!!! worth a try hun wish you all the best xxxxxx
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Silverfire said:
How are your two horses doing Vanrim?
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Both horses are finally improving after being on field rest for 6 weeks after being scoped clear of ulcers. Vet thinks their hind gut bacteria was out of kilter and they have been on a probiotic that reaches the hind gut - protexin gut balancer. They have had physio as both were very stiff from holding themselves funny with the ulcers and I am about to try acupuncture as I have read reports that this can help. Both horses are now trotting and cantering in the field whereas up to this point they would go no faster than walk even if the other horses were running around. I am cautiously optimistic that they are on the road to recovery and I am planning to try sitting on one of them next week.
 
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