Gelding just diagnosed with cushings. Tell me all you know!

[haras]

My 20 year old gelding has just been diagnosed with fairly bad cushings disease. He is due to start on pergolide (prascend). I just need to speak to the vet about the dose.

His symptoms were his coat, weightloss, fat distribution, muscle loss, tripping and also his teeth have been affected, despite only having them done three months ago He is being seen by a vet specialising in dental work in a couple of weeks time.

The only good thing I can see is that he has never had laminitis. so how can I now manage him? If he gets laminitis he will have to be put to sleep as he is a rescue pony and was beaten in small spaces, so will not stable without stressing/panicing. so obviously I want to do everything I can to avoid it.

Any hints/tips welcome. He lives out 24/7 on un-fertilised grazing and is currently underweight and fed baileys number 4. He can't at the mment eat hay or chaff due to his teeth and is very very fussy.

Thanks

 

[Luci07]

Before you start him on Peroglide, just see if your vet has any thoughts about you trying other supplements such as Cushineze (Naf) first. Firstly because Peroglide does go some way to suppressing the immune system and leave the horse open to other viruses (found that with my mare) and secondly it is very expensive. There have been good reports on this board with other people using it on horses with Cushings and fairly old ones too. You vet has obviously taken bloods to find that your boy has cushings and will need to take more in around 3 months to see if his bloods are going back to normal.

Cushings does not automatically mean laminitis, but obviously increases the risk so its something to keep an eye on.

I would place asearch on this vet forum - there have a large number of really helpful postings on this.

 

[Amos]

Not much help I'm afraid only to say that we are in exactly the same position but with much younger pony. Pony had bloods yesterday to confirm. No laminitis at present. Wild pony that can't be stabled. Would also be interested if anybody has any other suggestions regarding medication.

Good luck with yours - please let us know how you get on.

 

[Clava]

Before you start him on Peroglide, just see if your vet has any thoughts about you trying other supplements such as Cushineze (Naf) first. Firstly because Peroglide does go some way to suppressing the immune system and leave the horse open to other viruses (found that with my mare) and secondly it is very expensive. There have been good reports on this board with other people using it on horses with Cushings and fairly old ones too. You vet has obviously taken bloods to find that your boy has cushings and will need to take more in around 3 months to see if his bloods are going back to normal.

Cushings does not automatically mean laminitis, but obviously increases the risk so its something to keep an eye on.

I would place asearch on this vet forum - there have a large number of really helpful postings on this.

Vitex Agnus castus is in cushinaze, I supplement it to my pony and it has helped him a great deal (the swellings above the eyes were reduuced dramatically).

 

[bensababy]

I had my 18 year old cushinoid on pergolide last year, he cottoned on to the tablets being in any feed and point blank refused to eat anything either from my hand to bucket of feed, hidden in apples, mints - i ran out of food i could try and bribe him with, i had to end up syringing it down his throat - unsuccessfully, causing much distress. So after much internet research and consulting with my vets i made the choice to go down the herbal route - i now have him on Cushylife, Nettle, Dandelion and Burdock root.. and have never looked back - his coat is amazing, feet improved dramatically after a bad Laminitis bout and his general mood improved from a pony looking to say his goodbyes to a cheeky little devil in the field.

I always have him muzzled during day, if weather is ok he stays out overnight from 8pm to 6am muzzleless on a strip grazed paddock or he comes in at night.

You soon learn to slip into a good routine and find what is best to deal with it, good luck and keep us informed.

 

[Borderreiver]

My cushings pony had a lot of abscesses rather than lami. He looked perfectly well but his immune system was not so good. Watch out for worm problems. His first sign was an inexplicable increase in his worm count.

 

[alsiola]

Before you start him on Peroglide, just see if your vet has any thoughts about you trying other supplements such as Cushineze (Naf) first. Firstly because Peroglide does go some way to suppressing the immune system and leave the horse open to other viruses (found that with my mare) and secondly it is very expensive.

Pergolide is not an immune suppressant. High cortisol levels due to uncontrolled cushings can be an immune suppressant. Treating the underlying cushings disease with pergolide will go a good way to improving many Cushingoid horse's resistance to infections.

Products containing Vitex agnus castus have been definitively proven not to treat Cushings in horses.

The cost of Prascend (pergolide) cannot be denied, but if you stop paying for ineffective supplements this can go some way to paying for it.

 

[palomino698]

Can I ask what people with uninsured ponies are paying for pergolide and for metformin, please? Depending on results of bloods to be done this week, we may be looking at one or other option for a 14hh Welsh D mare, has been overweight at 450kg but she has dropped in a very short time to 400kg.

 

[Luci07]

Pergolide is not an immune suppressant. High cortisol levels due to uncontrolled cushings can be an immune suppressant. Treating the underlying cushings disease with pergolide will go a good way to improving many Cushingoid horse's resistance to infections.

Products containing Vitex agnus castus have been definitively proven not to treat Cushings in horses.

The cost of Prascend (pergolide) cannot be denied, but if you stop paying for ineffective supplements this can go some way to paying for it.

Can't agree with you as you are directly contradicting what my vet told me. Neither can I agree that other supplements are ineffective as both board members have had considerable success and again, my vet was in favour of trying these out. Vet is a highly respected equine vet. Where is your proof that these have been proven NOT to work?

 

[Crazy Friesian]

Can't agree with you as you are directly contradicting what my vet told me. Neither can I agree that other supplements are ineffective as both board members have had considerable success and again, my vet was in favour of trying these out. Vet is a highly respected equine vet. Where is your proof that these have been proven NOT to work?

Alsiola has a complete downer / block on anything that is not chemical...

OP - there are 2 very good yahoo sites (1 is also on FB) The FB one is run by a very well respected Dr Kellon. The other is in UK.

These guys work on balancing the horses diet and using products which are as stressless to the horses system as possible. (they do advocate using prascend where appropriate too)

EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com
MetabolicHorse@yahoogroups.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/ECIR-Group-Equine-Cushings-and-Insulin-Resistance/159957040718910

My guy (28) has just succumbed to this and is doing well so far on Agnus Castus.

 

[alsiola]

Can't agree with you as you are directly contradicting what my vet told me. Neither can I agree that other supplements are ineffective as both board members have had considerable success and again, my vet was in favour of trying these out. Vet is a highly respected equine vet. Where is your proof that these have been proven NOT to work?

Well here is the direct text from Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook:

Adverse Effects

Pergolide appears to be very well tolerated in horses. Adverse effects reported in humans include: nervous system complaints (dyskinesia, hallucinations, somnolence and insomnia), gastrointestinal complaints (nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, constipation), transient hypotension, and rhinitis.

Excess cortisol production, as found in uncontrolled Cushings Disease can be immunosuppressive. Treating the Cushings Disease will lower the cortisol production, and hence alleviate any related immunosuppression. Experience and respect mean far less than facts.

Unfortunately there are no published trials on VAC for Cushings Disease - the laminitis trust started and abandoned a trial without publishing. Reading the preliminary results on their website a cynic might suggest it was abandoned because it was doing nothing. The burden of proof does not rest with me however. If I told you that shaving a swastika in your horse's coat was protective for foot abscesses, you would (rightly) tell me that I was being absurd. However, where is your proof that this doesn't work?

Alsiola has a complete downer / block on anything that is not chemical...

This is a ridiculous statement on several levels.
Firstly, how do you think herbal products work? It's not by the power of magic, it's due to the chemicals contained within the herbs. Just because it has a nice tub, a pretty picture of a pony and says natural on the front doesn't mean that chemicals aren't mediating any effects it may or may not have..
Secondly, I have no prejudice against any treatment no matter what it is based on. I have prejudice against treatments that are not supported by evidence. This is not to put a downer on herbal medicine, but because if I am spending good money on a product, I want to know that it actually works! If you can show me evidence it works then I will readily accept it as a valid treatment. For example, atopic dermatitis in dogs has been shown to be helped by a combination of chinese herbs marketed as Phytopica. I couldn't care less that the product is herbally based, because it has been proven to work.
Aspirin is the classic example of a drug derived from natural sources. People noticed that chewing willow bark helped toothache - this observation was tested and found to be true - the active ingredient was isolated - testing showed the active ingredient was effective against pain. This is what happens when there are natural products with real effects - the product is studied, and becomes medicine. What is left over when all the effective bits have been removed is alternative medicine.
Instead of making ad hominem attacks, why not spend the time seeing if there is any evidence that the products you espouse actually work or not?

 

[Crazy Friesian]

Well here is the direct text from Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook:



Excess cortisol production, as found in uncontrolled Cushings Disease can be immunosuppressive. Treating the Cushings Disease will lower the cortisol production, and hence alleviate any related immunosuppression. Experience and respect mean far less than facts.

Unfortunately there are no published trials on VAC for Cushings Disease - the laminitis trust started and abandoned a trial without publishing. Reading the preliminary results on their website a cynic might suggest it was abandoned because it was doing nothing. The burden of proof does not rest with me however. If I told you that shaving a swastika in your horse's coat was protective for foot abscesses, you would (rightly) tell me that I was being absurd. However, where is your proof that this doesn't work?




This is a ridiculous statement on several levels.
Firstly, how do you think herbal products work? It's not by the power of magic, it's due to the chemicals contained within the herbs. Just because it has a nice tub, a pretty picture of a pony and says natural on the front doesn't mean that chemicals aren't mediating any effects it may or may not have..
Secondly, I have no prejudice against any treatment no matter what it is based on. I have prejudice against treatments that are not supported by evidence. This is not to put a downer on herbal medicine, but because if I am spending good money on a product, I want to know that it actually works! If you can show me evidence it works then I will readily accept it as a valid treatment. For example, atopic dermatitis in dogs has been shown to be helped by a combination of chinese herbs marketed as Phytopica. I couldn't care less that the product is herbally based, because it has been proven to work.
Aspirin is the classic example of a drug derived from natural sources. People noticed that chewing willow bark helped toothache - this observation was tested and found to be true - the active ingredient was isolated - testing showed the active ingredient was effective against pain. This is what happens when there are natural products with real effects - the product is studied, and becomes medicine. What is left over when all the effective bits have been removed is alternative medicine.
Instead of making ad hominem attacks, why not spend the time seeing if there is any evidence that the products you espouse actually work or not?

Alsiola - IF you took the time to stop being so aggressive I might take the time to find my references for you. As it is I really cant be arsed! Suffice to say, I HAVE done my research and have been involved with all kinds of Complimentary Medicines for over 20 years.

Do you really think that I would pluck statements out of the air. Perhaps you should spend a bit of time researching yourself. There are studies out there on Agnus Castus, just take the time and open your eyes to what IS out there and not what YOU want to see...

I am VERY aware of the effects of pergolide on humans and that it has now been withdrawn from use on humans.

My goodness, I have never "met" anyone so aggressive and hostile...

 

[Kellys Heroes]

*hides head and enters crossfire...!!!*

Our girl was diagnosed at Christmas with the top level of Cushings - she is 17 now. She was constantly riddled with lami, and very miserable and completely uncoordinated.
Possibly going against what people have said on here, the vets put her on 1mg Pergolide (Prascend) straight away. She has improved ten fold and is now going back out in her little field, and not far off starting walks. The farrier and vet are absolutely amazed and keep saying they are so pleased with her!
Please PM me if you want any more details or reassurance.

This is her when she just got diagnosed - she was walking 3 steps at a time here before faltering.
- a few months of Pergolide later...(video)

- today!

She is also on a supplement called Cushy Life, 15mls a day in her feed. It IS expensive, but so be it...
K x

 

[alsiola]

Alsiola - IF you took the time to stop being so aggressive I might take the time to find my references for you. As it is I really cant be arsed! Suffice to say, I HAVE done my research and have been involved with all kinds of Complimentary Medicines for over 20 years.

Do you really think that I would pluck statements out of the air. Perhaps you should spend a bit of time researching yourself. There are studies out there on Agnus Castus, just take the time and open your eyes to what IS out there and not what YOU want to see...

I am VERY aware of the effects of pergolide on humans and that it has now been withdrawn from use on humans.

My goodness, I have never "met" anyone so aggressive and hostile...

I could be arsed to find some papers - there appears to some evidence of efficacy of VAC in treating post-menopausal syndrome in humans. If you have some published research showing any effect in horses then please let me know.

Perhaps I would stop being so "aggressive" if, just for once, someone responded to me with a published reference, rather than comments on me and my writing style, comments on their own experience and other such irrelevancies. I do find it interesting that I am considered "aggressive" for questioning your claims, maybe if the evidence existed you would just post that and shut me up, rather than spend your time judging me.
Again, I am not against VAC, or herbal treatments, I have just not seen any convincing evidence that they work. If the evidence exists, then I will change my position with immediate effect. I await eagerly.

 

[Danny Vet]

I hope you're still "awaiting eagerly" the published references for treating Cushings with complimentary medicine... seems to be taking a while.

 

[lornaA]

i would just like to say my 18 year old mare was diagnosed with cushings in march and started pergolide straight away and it has made a massive difference to her. She is having trouble with an abscess but other than that she is 100% better than 12 weeks ago. I noticed a huge differnce in her in just 3 days!

 

[Mystified]

Hi I have a mare mid-late 2o's who was diagnosed with Cushings about 2 years ago.

Her seasons were prolonged and she got very agressive at this time when tacking her up or put her rugs on.

She would drink alot so had a wet bed, was quite lethargic when ridden and started to get fatty deposits on her back. She had an attack of laminitis in the winter which led to us getting her tested.

She is on 1/2 a tablet of prascend (pergolide) a day and as long as I keep an eye on her weight she is out 24/7 has been since February. I also try and keep her feeding routine the same as winter in that she still gets hay everyday and a feed and I also give her a spoonful of NAF magic which has got a gut balancer and magnesium which is good for fatty deposits and lamnitics. We have been sound for over a year on this routine and she is out in about an 1 acre with her companion with no muzzle.

She looks absolutely fabulous and probably looks fitter than the other two ponies we have even though she is the oldest. I have her feet trimmed every 8 weeks.

It is just keeping everything balanced, I don't put her out on the frosty grass but she went out during the day in the snow no problems but she had a feed first and hay in the field.

Hope this helps.

 

[tojo]

I have never had a horse with cushings however my friends horse had it and one thing that she found out was that the drug they prescribe for it you can get from the chemist for like a 1/3 of the price.

Vets don't tell you that you can get it from a chemist but if you ask them they can give you a prescription form which you take to the chemist and they give it you like they would a human. My friend said that the tablets were really expensive from the vet but from the chemist it halved the cost at least

 

[Kellys Heroes]

I have never had a horse with cushings however my friends horse had it and one thing that she found out was that the drug they prescribe for it you can get from the chemist for like a 1/3 of the price.

Vets don't tell you that you can get it from a chemist but if you ask them they can give you a prescription form which you take to the chemist and they give it you like they would a human. My friend said that the tablets were really expensive from the vet but from the chemist it halved the cost at least

Not anymore unfortunately as the drug which WAS Pergolide, is now Prascend - basically the same drug but only meant for horses and new laws mean it is only legal for vets to prescribe the equine only drug which isn't available from pharmacies.
K x