gelding with Pilot and Samber grandsires difficult behaviour

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rachel_ezcurra

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Hi

I really hope that someone can help, I have a gelding - lovely looking just like his grandad Samber. I bought him 6 months ago. He is 5 years old and when I bought him had a lovely temprament, is bombproof as they come alone or in company and seemed very chilled.


More recently though I believe his temprament is erring more to the side of Pilot, he is very difficult - bolting off when leading, bucking, having strops, napping even on he lunge.

He is very calm, doing what you ask, almost at the click of a finger he switches a bit like Jeckyll and Hyde. I have handled difficult horses before but he takes it to a completely different level.

He is in a rope halter and now a chifney to turn out (it is the only thing that stops him). We have had his back and saddle checked, his teeth are fine, he is on a managed low sugar diet.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can approach his training - have any of you got or had a difficult horse out of pilot and succeeded. I dont want to give up on him but wont be able to keep him if he continues down the road he is going.

He has so much potential and I want us both to enjoy our work together but if he continues on this path.

Any advice much appreciated.

Many Thanks
 
I don't think you can put it down to one grandsire or the other. (And, for what it's worth, I haven't noticed that the Samber lines have particularly great minds, certainly not to the point where they are reliably prepotent.) If the horse was okay and now he is not then presumably he can be returned to his previous state and it's probably not an issue PRIMARILY of innate temperament. It's impossible to accurately assess the situation without seeing the horse so perhaps consult an expert in young or "problem" horses in your area and get them to advice on the specific situation.
 
The Pilots I have known have been characters but generally nice amenable horses with good brains.

To get back to your point, it sounds like your horse is telling you something is wrong, possibly uncomfortable. As TS says, if he had been difficult since birth ai may suspect a difficult temperament but it sounds like this isnt his normal behaviour
 
I have a Warmblood mare she is 13 now and Pilot is her Dams grand Sire, She is great to handle most of the time but can get quite upset over nothing at times, she then turns into a bit of a strop almost like a spoilt child not getting its own way if you know what I mean, I have only had her 3 years and dont know much of her background, she also does not like being on her own although she has really improved in the 3 years I have had her, she prefers to live out and once she is in at night she can get more tense, I also cant feed her anything heating she lives on fresh air and only gets chaff and unmolassed sugar beet. She also thrives on routine can get stressy if anything is changed suddenly.

Has your horses routine changed recently? Is he getting less turnout? I would really cut the hard feed and maybe up his work and see how you go, failing that maybe get your vet out, you could ask about ulcers they can effect horses so many different ways, I think some horses are just very sensitive with things whereas others are not, I hope you manage to get to the bottom of it, please let us know how you get on or what you decide.
 
You haven't started feeding carrots have you? They can sometimes be a trigger to turn something sensible into an idiot and it's not something a lot of people think of immediately.

Other than that it does sound like he could be turning into Kevin the teenager if you can't find anything healthwise that could be causing it.

Our warmblood started off lovely like yours and turned into a nightmare to ride/lead when he was 7 (always a gentleman in his stable though), his favourite trick was a high speed pirouette on his back legs - but when he got a bit older all of that stopped as suddenly as it started.

Hubby found that the key to getting through it was not to have the arguments when the horse tried to start them so after a bit of a strop when he didn't get the reaction he was after he usually gave up. Our boy shares the Pilatus/Pilot line with yours through his mothers side, she was by Polydor.
 
Another who thinks he's having a stroppy teenager phase. I'm convinced it's more prevalent in WBs!

Mine is as chilled as they come, but he had a phase last winter of being slightly the same - would flip to monster from nothing. Took the form of some napping, bit of bolting and taking off on the way to the field. Just kept plugging away with the same things, making sure I was consistent with handling him and upped his bit for hacking....he seemed to get over it in a couple of months. Had one episode since but generally he's gone back to bombproof and quiet.
 
My WB definitely went through a stroppy 5 yr old phase and I have heard of plenty of others! I think they have gained strength and confidence and start thinking what if......!!! As others have said minimum hard feed, plenty of exercise and good routine, keep correcting him and hopefully he will turn into a calm pleasant 6yr old!
 
My normally dope on a rope TB went through a stroppy teenage stage about 5/6. If they are bright and have something about them they usually do test the boundaries to find out whats right and wrong, otherwise how do they know?!
I can remember swinging underneath him while lept around turning him out, I had to use a stallion chain for months. I remember hanging on as we went flybucking across the school because he got excited and watching him hoon around at a zillion miles an hr on the lunge legs flying everywhere. Hacking was fun, monster round every corner and i'm trotting through the village with him snorting and me screetching 'FORWARDS!!!'. It seemed we get over one trick (spinning) and then another one would pop up (rearing while being led). Tbh it didn't last long, 6 months ish and he would be really good for weeks and then would have a week of being a norty poo lol. I knew he wasn't in pain as he was good 80% of the time and he got better the more he was worked not worse. I used to work him twice a day. Lunge in the morning and canter round the fields in the afternoon sort of thing. I think he got so bored of me cantering him to expel energy that in the end he just became really calm again :p.
 
Coloured in my sig is by pie in the sky and he too can have a strop for no reason at all ( has been dangerous at times too ) think its def the WB in him. On the other hand he finds everything so easy and works really nice once he has come back to earth lol !!
 
I had a mare by E-Pilot

Pilot being the grand sire

She was a pain in the.....

So talented though when it came to jumping - when in the mood - otherwise a nightmare

When I got her everyone had given up on her being a ridden horse, so nappy, spooky dam right dangerous at times

I tried for two years and did her some good out of her , when she was good she was really good and would pick up 1st at the BS

Next time the bell would go and she would refuse to move etc

Had ovaries scanned, scooped for ulcers all manner of things no one found anything wrong. Gave up at age of12 and retired her. She died 2 years later

Quite sad really as she was a sweet mare to people

Lethal with her hind legs though but not meant at people but if a horse even looked at her wrong , she would lash out

Once breaking someone leg so bad they were air lifted to hospital.

I'd never own a Pilot horse again lol

This is her

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But if you have a horse with Pilot as a grandsire then it's got 4 other, equally important grandparents.

We assess on the basis of stallion lines because that is how the registries (other than Trakehers to some extent) place their emphasis, but that has as much to do with numbers as influence. Good breeders look closely at the mare lines and it's generally considered that the dam has the most influence of all, especially for naturally conceived foals. It's not fair to have one horse out of one line and make huge assumptions about heritability.

(I agree Pilot did not have a good rep himself but he has produced lots of winners so they can't all be THAT tricky.)
 
TarrSteps said:
But if you have a horse with Pilot as a grandsire then it's got 4 other, equally important grandparents.

We assess on the basis of stallion lines because that is how the registries (other than Trakehers to some extent) place their emphasis, but that has as much to do with numbers as influence. Good breeders look closely at the mare lines and it's generally considered that the dam has the most influence of all, especially for naturally conceived foals. It's not fair to have one horse out of one line and make huge assumptions about heritability.

(I agree Pilot did not have a good rep himself but he has produced lots of winners so they can't all be THAT tricky.)
Click to expand...
The Dam is 60-70% of the equation when breeding as she rears the foal and teaches it manners.For example a flighty mare will on the law of averages have a flighty foal ,not because it inherited it but because it copies its mums reaction to events.
People get so hung up on sires and forget about the mare the only stud book that bucks this trend is the TB where the Dams line is very important to buyers.
It is also a quirk of breeding that good or bad traits sometimes skip a generation.
Does the OP know anything about the Dam of their horse as this is where I would first look rather than blame the Grandsire.
However as I posted above ,I dont think the breeding is the issue here otherwise it would have been evident earlier.
 
My mare on dam side was Roemer

But personally after her I'd not have a Pilot horse then after my last horse I'd now not have a Indoctro horse as I had a nightmare plus if you research him it says Indoctro horses should be left to professionals. So for me those stallions are no goes for me lol
 
interesting thread, I have a ID x TB gelding, not a bit of warmblood in sight! - had him since yearling backed and brought on by me and now is 12 years old- so I know him inside out. he is sane as you like 99% of the time -in fact almost a dope on a rope and known to be pretty lazy, but occasionally he will just throw the biggest tantrums ( not sure what else to call them) freezes looks into the distance, knaps big time, threaten rearing (nothing very high, but big bucking and dear leaping ( all four feet off floor at once) lots of snorting and growing at least two hands bigger ! :-)) he used to do it more as a baby and I can normally tell which situations will set him off and just can now avoid them. it is never at events or shows or anything like that, just random places and things. He has been a superstar all weekend off out for lovely hack Saturday, had lesson with a wonderful trainer at her yard on Sunday and was quiet as you like, in fact he can be hard work to get forward!! and I was talking to her about his occasional "kevin" moments and she was surprised as never seen a hint of it, despite us asking him to work pretty hard in the school learning new things, it is never this that sets him off though. by the way all usual checks back teeth etc so no excuses for him. anyway I go to ride Monday evening we head off down the drive to the field, all ok, half way down he spots a dog 100 yards away just stood still ( he knows the dog and has no problem with dogs) and that was it, big big tantrum. driveway is narrow and fenced both sides and he was bucking so high was worried get legs caught in or over one of the fences. so we walked back to the yard (I dont ever give in to him , but in the interest of safety!) so headed out in the other direction instead, bit tense but no trouble, took him to top field and did some homework from the day before and within couple minutes he was fine)when we were finished brought him back down the drive he didnt want to go out of , no problem! he is a funny thing and part of the reason i got him dead cheap as yearling is he was being very bargy and really mucking the person who owned him . his TB side is out of Delta Dancer not sure if that has anything to do with it as i know very little about TB bloodlines) horses are strange creatures at times, i guess that si what makes us love them :-))
 
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