Gelding with Stallion behaviour

[MazzMara]

Hi all..
I'm a new,1st time owner with a, up to now, lovely cob.. We've had a challenging time over the last 3 months but have turned positive corners and doing OK slowly but surely...
Here's a new big problem..
2 friends have brought their horses to the livery yard meaning I've got opportunity for more hacking.. Great.. But my lad has suddenly become quite aggressive with the new horses, nothing too bad, aiming to bite and kicking out @ rear horse, but all without actually touching..
But.. Today riding in arena w friend, @ end I dismounted, about 4-5 good paces away from other horse, rider on board, my horse, in a split second, VERY aggressively lunged for other horse, knocking me down and full on attack on him, teeth bared, the lot.. Very frightening, luckily no injuries; I had held on to rein so my horse didn't actually touch other horse..
As I was on the ground, and didn't see him from the front, my friend told me he was in full stallion mode..
I did give him a substantial slap on his neck, but by the time I got up, it was probably seconds too late.. (didn't have a crop/whip)
So.. Is my cob only partly gelded.? Or just a dominant horse.. This is new behaviour with the arrival of 3 new horses.
I've had him since mid April, full clean vetting, very unsettled for 2 months, but much better now, calmer and apparently happy.. Follows me around, good to ride out..
What can I do about this dangerous behavior..? Worried re this happening on the roads, @ events etc.. ?
Help.. ?

 

[MazzMara]

PS.. He's 9yrs old, he's only hunted a little, hacked, fun rides etc before me. Backed @ 4yrs, same owner since then. I'm beginning basic schooling etc.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It's certainly very aggressive behaviour but may not be related to hormones. You can get a blood test to check hormone levels, so talk to your vet about that. Some horses get very aggressive when they are in pain, so this is another thing to discuss with your vet.

 

[MazzMara]

Thank you MC.. I'm getting g a TTOUCH person in to assess and go from there if need be..
My yard owner thinks he may have had a late cut.. I've messaged previous owner re same.. He's mad for mares too.. Paddocks are individual and geldings separated from mares.
I may have to get tough w him too.. ?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Was he kept happily in a herd previously? Some horses become quite miserable on individual turnout.

Obviously if he is dangerous due to being a genuine rig (cryptorchid) or another reason, then herd turnout wouldn't be safe.

 

[MazzMara]

He was with no more than 2 or 3 horses in a field in the country, now in a very new environment, but has seemed to settle..
He has mellowed quite a bit from constant neighing.. This behaviour is new..

 

[Meowy Catkin]

How long did the constant neighing go on for?

So until 3 months ago he was happily in a small herd with no aggressive behaviour to your knowledge?

 

[MazzMara]

Yes, exactly.. He has gradually reduced neighing over the last month or so, although hasn't stopped.. Will neigh seemingly randomly @ times out hacking, but much less now..
I'm a bit shocked @ the level of aggression today.. He seemed very laid back when I viewed him, was totally bonkers on arrival to this new yard, stable and ground manners had to be retrained, VERY unsettled for a month, gradually better over 2nd month and now almost 4 months very calm in stable, lowers his head for me, joins up, easy catch, and He's very gentle w me now.. It seems to be the arrival of new horses.. I don't know.. Strange... He has only shared arena once or twice, I'm mostly in there with him only. Maybe that's part of it.???

 

[Shay]

I'm getting g a TTOUCH person in to assess and go from there if need be.

I'm really sorry - but you need a vet. If he is a rig - and it is possible - you will need a vet to confirm it and an operation to resolve it. An alternative practitioner really cannot help.

 

[Cortez]

Sounds like he's just rude. A quick slap and a firm "No!", and keep an eye on him in future to nip any aggressive behaviour in the bud. Some geldings are more masculine than others. If he really was a rig he'd be genuinely a handful, and it doesn't sound like that bad.

 

[MazzMara]

Thanks Shay and Cortez..
YO thinks he was a late cut.. Which is possible and I've messaged previous owner re same. The TTouch is actually not really related to this episode, I think I confused you on that..
I agree fully w you Cortez.. I'm not used to being hard on horses, but this fella needs it now, I'd be so mortified if he became a danger to other horses and riders on the yard.
I am worried re this happening out on the roads.. Here in Ireland we don't have the luxury of nearby bridle paths.. Just lanes and quiet roads. Also re travel w other horses.. ?
I'm hoping this can be resolved, or he and me will be pariahs.. ?

 

[bubblensqueak]

we used a supplement called perfect gentleman from dodson and horrell, for my horse who displayed riggish behaviour, after being gelded late, it worked really well, although we only used it once we knew he wasnt in any pain.

 

[Auslander]

My horse is riggy- I suspect he was cut late, and has covered mares, as he knows exactly how to woo the ladies, and what to do when they agree. However, he has NEVER acted up when he's had a human attached to him - the most he would do is wolf whistle under his breath (and he gets put firmly back in his box if there's any of that nonsense when I'm riding him!). Although he was gelded correctly, I keep in the back of my mind that he thinks he's a stallion and treat him accordingly. I don't tie him up next to mares, i don't let him chat them up when I'm attached to him, and I keep a solid hedge in between him and my mare herd.
He has never shown aggression to another gelding though - and I would be taking that very seriously. In a nutshell, when I'm on or next to a horse, I'm nice to them as long as they are behaving in a civilised fashion. If they start acting feral - incl biting, kicking, lunging at other horses, or paying more attention to what's going on around them than to me I unleash the wrath of Satan upon them - I have zero tolerance for having 500+kg of danger going on in my space. This applies to every horse on my yard, whenever I am in their space, and I enforce the rule regularly. With a horse like yours, who has previous for being a bit emotional, you need to make it clear to him that he has to behave when you're near him. He can do what he likes on "His" time, but absolutely cannot be allowed to be a rude, aggressive thug when people are around.

 

[MazzMara]

Thanks Auslander..
This behavior towards another gelding has come suddenly out of the blue..
I'm not an experienced horsewoman, this is my 1st horse and I'm certainly rattled @ this episode. My YO only told me now that he's spikey w mares, (why didn't she tell me all along.?)
He's a smashing little cob and as I said, calm and mannerly now, gentle and workable. So where this came out of baffles me.. Other than his true colours coming out w these new horses.. (he was fine w this particular horse out hacking 2 days earlier..)
So to be exact, what exactly is your 'Wrath of Satan' approach.? Ridden and on the ground..?
I would hate to have to sell him .. I'm devastated @ this but willing to work w it. The supplement 'Perfect Gentleman' from Donson & Horrell, for Riggish behavior with a late geld, has been suggested ested to me and w positive reviews.
I wasn't expecting this.. I don't feel equipped to deal w it.. ?

 

[HeyMich]

The sudden onset makes me think it's a pain reaction. Please get the saddle checked (did you buy a new one for him or did he come with tack?) and get a vet out to give him a good check over.

 

[Shay]

Can you get a good instructor to work with you on the ground? Reminding a horse of its manners needs timing that is best taught personally. Cobs can get a bit above themselves - anything can but cobs seem quite good at it! Otherwise you could try books like "perfect manners" by Kelly Marks.

I don't know precisely what Auslander means by thier "wrath of satan" approach - but if a horse behaves in an unmannerly fashion around me I make it absolutely clear that that is not acceptable.. gosh now you want to ask me how and typing it out is long and complicated. And to an extent depends on the horse. So - for my little 13.2 cob if he behaves badly I can move his feet. Moving thier feet is a horse way of saying "i'm the boss" and becuase he is relatively little I can actually physically shove him if I have to. But normally its better to reinforce your space by asking them to move back or over, shaking the lead rope a little or growling at them. As long as they have origionally been taught to move away you only need to reinforce it. But with DD's last 148 ISH he would probably have tried to kill me. He was surprisingly agressive - most horses are not - all born out of fear and bad handling. So for him he needed a more gentle better timed reminder - and also a keen appreciation of what was bad manners and what was a genuine fear reaction which he could not control. DD's current baby connie is such a honey on the ground he really only needs a gesture to be reminded to be mannerly. But she allows him to rub on her and I don't so he does sometimes get a tap on the nose - and really do mean a tap not a slap or a blow - to remind him to keep his nose out of my space.

Its all so individual - and I've had horses for 50 odd years so it is also instinctive. I'm not an instructor to explain better how this works. So back to my first point - can you get soemone to help you?

And heymtich is absolutely right about being sure there is no pain.

 

[MazzMara]

Thank you HeyMich,
We had been working with our horses in the arena, my guy was unusually sluggish, but there was no indication of aggression at all. We were finished and I dismounted, the attack came as I was pling up near side stirrup. The two horses were standing quietly about 3 good paces apart.. It was a split second attack out of nowhere..
Saddle on loan from friend, fits well and no issues so far.. Got no tack from previous owner.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Talk to the previous owner. Get as much information as possible. I would essentially ask for their help rather than accusing them of anything. Maybe they would even come over and help you?

Do they know when he was gelded?
Was there trouble finding the testicles or not?
Was he turned out with geldings only?
Was he in a mixed herd?
Did he take a while to settle in with them?
Has he been very vocal with them?
What was his normal behaviour like with people and with horses?
Did he ever push his boundaries?
If yes, how did they keep him in line?
Was he ever that aggressive towards another horse with them?
What tack did they use with him?
Etc...

Unfortunately you need to work out what's going on because you can't just ask the horse. Maybe he is a rig (so Vet to help determine that), or you've given him an inch and he's taken a mile. Possibly he's in pain or he could just be really unhappy at the new yard. It could also be a combination of these things.

ETA - or maybe something else... eg food intolerance. Check what he was fed before.

 

[MazzMara]

Thanks Shay..
My question was to Auslander re 'Wrath of Satan' approach.!
Thank you though for your long response.
I'll investigate the pain thing.

 

[MazzMara]

Thank you MeowyCatkin,
I've left a msg for previous owner. Will try again.. All good to know.. Thank you.. ?

 

[planete]

I had one cob type who did the same thing once, nothing riggish about him, he was also the kind to deliberately tread on people's feet (he had a history of it when I mentioned it to previous owners). He was just a bully and indulged himself if he thought he could get away with it. The 'wrath of God' from me was an almighty roar while making him forcibly walk backwards as fast as I could make him do it. He was in no doubt he was in serious trouble and never did it again in my presence after that first and only time.

 

[MazzMara]

Thank you Planete..
Well I did give him an almighty whack on his neck, but methinks that won't be enough if he's riggy or late cut.. He knocked me flying and displayed full on stallion mode to other gelding minding his own business.. Scared me and worried for future repeats.. ?

 

[Auslander]

My wrath of Satan approach depends on the situation really - there's nothing prescriptive about it. If my horse did what your did, I'd probably have near enough pulled his head off to get him back facing me, and not where he could reach the other horse - and I would then have made myself extremely large and scary indeed, and backed him right up the school at speed - away from the other horses. It has to be done as the situation is "live" though, so you need to be totally on the ball every second now you know what he's capable of.

 

[MazzMara]

Good advice Auslander..
As he had floored me, I was seconds too late in reprimanding him.. And no doubt nowhere near fierce enough it seems..
The question is now.. How to anticipate as this was split second attack from calmly standing 3-4 paces away to an explosion of stallioness..
He's @ a large livery yard and I don't want to alienate myself w an aggressive horse owned by a less experienced rider like me.. .
Interestingly, this has not shown itself before the 3 new horses arrived..

 

[MazzMara]

Also.. We were out hacking with the same horse a few days previously, with no problem at all, very peaceful, thought the 2 of them got along fine..

 

[Auslander]

Good advice Auslander..
As he had floored me, I was seconds too late in reprimanding him.. And no doubt nowhere near fierce enough it seems..
The question is now.. How to anticipate as this was split second attack from calmly standing 3-4 paces away to an explosion of stallioness..
He's @ a large livery yard and I don't want to alienate myself w an aggressive horse owned by a less experienced rider like me.. .
Interestingly, this has not shown itself before the 3 new horses arrived..

I think you just need to work on the assumption that he is going to do it again (and hope that he doesn't!) and make sure you're always alert, and always far enough away that he doesn't feel like the other horse is in his space.
Is he turned out with the one he attacked

 

[Auslander]

I wouldn't think of it as "stalion" behaviour, btw. He's being aggressive and dominant, but a lot of geldings are like that, so are a lot of mares. Stallions tend to be more interested in making love than war

 

[MazzMara]

There is individual padocking w electric lines for all horses...except for the 3 new horses who have a paddock to themselves as they are from the same yard and know each other
The thought of anticipating trouble isn't great for my confidence.! But I know what you mean... ?

 

[planete]

Totally agree with Auslander. if you ride a stallion, you make sure there is plenty of space between you and other horses and you never let your guard down but a well-trained stallion will not behave like a thug. Thuggish behaviour is just that. Now you know what he is capable of, you will need to be prepared by not putting yourself and him in situations where he will be tempted to do it again. It may also help if you become much stricter in the way you handle him. Whatever you ask him to do, as in standing still for instance, you do not let him get away with moving one foot, ever, and if he does he is made to put it back exactly where it was straight away, as many times as necessary. If he invades your space, you move him back where you want him, always. If you are coming into his stable, he steps back. If you are feeding him, he politely stands back until you have moved away from the food. That is discipline, it is fair, and it keeps people safe around horses who are inclined to throw their weight around. All this can be done calmly and quietly of course, you reserve the wrath of God (or Satan!) for horrible transgressions.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I wouldn't think of it as "stalion" behaviour, btw. He's being aggressive and dominant, but a lot of geldings are like that, so are a lot of mares. Stallions tend to be more interested in making love than war

Absolutely this.

Having had a good number of working stallions, I tend to get grumpy when I hear of a gelding having 'stallion like behaviour'. Nope, its being a bloody rude/agressive thug.