Geldings not getting along...

[laurenmariethompson]

I’m at my wits end.. advice or past experiences needed please
So I have two geldings, Tommo 14yo 16hh ID x Cob owned for 11 years and Dougal 14.2hh fell x dales 25yo owned for 9 years. They have always got along well and never had any issues with them, until recently.

I moved yards august 2019 from a large yard with separate mares/geldings herds to a small yard. They went out to grass in a geldings herd and all was well. Came in for the rough winter months and were turned out together during the day.
Come April 2020 my yard owner (owns 3 mares) decided to mix the herds together due to field rotation issues (both my geldings been out with mares previously and never had a problem) so this was fine and all went well for about 3-4 weeks.
my younger larger gelding Tommo establishes himself as top dog of the herd pretty quickly. However my older gelding dougal mounted one of the mares (all witnessed by us) and Tommo preceded to attack him. Dougal came in for box rest as he injured his leg and was fit and well not too long after. During this time Tommo then began attacking the other geldings (even a similar sized cob) and even attacked one of the older mares. And when I say attack I mean it, galloping towards them neck down, teeth out and pinning them to the ground. It was getting dangerous at this point so the mares and geldings we’re separated again.
Tommo still continued these behaviours towards the other geldings so was subsequently separated and put in a field by himself (can still see other horses along the fence lines) as he was being dangerous towards the other horses and didn’t want to put anyone else’s horses at risk. He is content by himself.
Disclaimer: Tommo has never shown aggression like this towards other horses in the 11 years I’ve had him, He is fine with people and under saddle through all of this, the perfect gentleman. He has been checked by vet for teeth and any other issues, he is physically fit and well.

Now my problem lies here, Tommo seems to have got over it with the other horses, they walk past his stable and no issues. But he has an absolute vengeance for Dougal. When dougal is brought into the barn he will lunge over and bite him, chase him and lunge at him against the field fence line if we are walking him past. Dougal is petrified and will physically urinate. It is breaking my heart to see them like this. Dougal is being moved to a different stable tonight so that Tommo can’t get to him when he is being brought in/out of his box. Why is he still doing this to him? I am longing for the days where I could lead them up from the field side by side... any advice to bring my boys back together??

 

[chaps89]

This might sound a bit odd. But with Dougal being a bit older, has he had a health check too?
I've seen it in herds before where as the older horse drops down the pecking order, the younger more dominant horses force them out, picking up on any weakness or illness and essentially don't want that within the herd. Could it be Tommo has picked up on something with Dougal?
Or it could just be that yard doesn't suit them, the moving fields/herds has unsettled things and they need re-introducing gradually?

 

[emilylou]

We have a horse at our yard that cant be out in mixed herds. He is very possessive of the mares and is vicious towards the other geldings. He is turned out with two mares and has no issues, but as he has decided the mares are 'his', even if we were to turn him out with geldings only he would attack them if the mares were in sight. May be that Tommo is equally possessive and sees Dougal as the biggest threat.
No solutions unfortunately as the can of worms has been opened. They may be okay together if they moved to a geldings only yard but that is a bit of an extreme solution.

 

[laurenmariethompson]

This might sound a bit odd. But with Dougal being a bit older, has he had a health check too?
I've seen it in herds before where as the older horse drops down the pecking order, the younger more dominant horses force them out, picking up on any weakness or illness and essentially don't want that within the herd. Could it be Tommo has picked up on something with Dougal?
Or it could just be that yard doesn't suit them, the moving fields/herds has unsettled things and they need re-introducing gradually?

He has had 2 vet checks this year, vet said all is fine.
We tried introducing a 15.1hh chunky cob in with tommo (who he had been out with previously before) and he still went to attack. So Tommo is currently still out to grass by himself.
They have been on this yeard previously so I dont think it's that. Dougal is settled with the geldings and Tommo seems content and no beavioural chanegs under saddle or on the ground. I just would have thought that he would have gotten over it, but is still going for Dougal whenever he sees him, but not any of the other horses
We are always careful and I bring Tommo in before i get Dougal as i don't want to stress Dougal out anymore, as i said he physically will not walk past Tommo, starts to shake and urinate. It is horrible to see after they were best pals for so many years.

 

[Tarragon]

Don't you so wish you could just ask them what is wrong!
I feel for you as it a tricky situation but it seems you have done everything you can. Is there anyway you can separate your two from the rest of the liveries completely for a bit to try and re-establish their old relationship?

 

[WandaMare]

I have seen horses personalities completely change when there are changes to the herd. It sounds as though before you moved to this livery yard there was a different herd leader, but here Tommo has taken on the job and been slightly too effective! You would probably need another dominant horse to put Tommo back down the pecking order before he would change but it could risk injuries so probably not worth the risk.

 

[dorsetladette]

I have a gelding who is very particular about who shares his field. It takes ages to introduce anyone over the fence and he is possessive of me. We have found that hacking him out with others before they are introduced in the field helps as he is not the most confident out hacking and is happy for another horse to go in front or first past the scary stuff.

Unfortunately he just doesn't know how to be top dog and the role stresses him out, he spends much of his time just being a bully for seemingly no reason. he is much better if out with a gentle matriarch or leader to keep him in his place.

 

[Goldenstar]

The incident has triggered very dominant behaviour in Tommo .
I afraid he probably needs to stay alone as although I am sure he would be ok with a mare you can’t risk it in a livery situation .
I guess that if you could persuade the vet to prescribe him regumate ( the stuff for mares ) that would solve your problem .
It acts a testosterone Inhibitor in a gelding I used it in a life and death situation with a gelding who was breaking through things and getting to the others it solved it entirely .
I could graze with others ( although I would not have done so unless they where not mine )after regulate and in time he settled and came off the drug .
The other possibility is that something is wrong with Tommo ( tumours can trigger strange behaviour) however I think it’s extremely unlikely because of how the behaviour is presenting .
I think your yard owner is nuts doing mixed herds in a livery situation.

 

[Blanche]

Many years ago I had a problem with two tb geldings. The elder one started grabbing the other by the throat until the he collapsed. The vet gave him a jab, I think(?it was many years ago) of possibly a female hormone. Whatever he gave it did calm things down so they could remain together. Speak to your vet.
I’m not sure I would ever risk putting them back together again, it wouldn’t be fair on Dougal as he seems so terrified.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

We had to separate 2 mares, well a mare and a 2 yr old filly because they just did not get on to the point of fighting. We have almost always, for the last 30 yrs had a stable herd of 4, occasionally 5 mares and never had any trouble between them. These two were in danger of doing each other serious injury so they had to be kept in pairs with a companion each - a complete pain! The older one was later tested positive for Cushings and I have wondered if the filly picked up on the weakness before we did.

 

[LegOn]

Dont suppose Tommo has been tested for being a rig?? He might have been fine with his hormones until he saw or was literally tiggered by seeing Dougal mounted on a mare and his hormones kicked in! Could be worth getting him tested?

 

[Gloi]

Poor Dougal. It often happens when they get older and can no longer hold their own the others that have previously got on with them spot the weakness and bully them. Keeping him well away from Tommo is the best bet.

 

[laurenmariethompson]

Update: They have never made friends and subsequently have been seperated ever since! Hard work but better for them both!