Gem Twist clone coming to stand in UK

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LEC

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I see Murka have bought a Gem Twist clone and its coming to stand in the UK. Will be very interesting and a dual market with eventing and Sjing especially now FEI rules have relaxed.
 
Sounds like it's going to get a good chance at proving its worth in the sport as well. I'll be watching with interest!
 
Will be interesting to watch his competition career, but I would never use a clone to breed from.
 
I read an interview with Murka saying they were pleased about the FEI rule being lifted but that there are currently no plans to have him competed as he has been bred to be a breeding stallion. Will be interesting to see how he develops still although I too wouldn't breed from a clone.
 
I think the FEI should allow the clones to compete, why can't we see if they can actually do the job themselves. Then at least mare owners can make their own minds up regarding if they want to use them or not!!!

I would never breed from a clone either, there is something not right about cloning bloodlines so predigrees go round and round in never ending circles!!!
 
I dont really buy the 'reduced gene pool' argument as this is a clone of a gelding who has no progeny- therefore these are effectively untried genes which will add in something new. No different really to all the countless Contendros, Baloubets, Cassinis etc that are about, many bred from very similar damlines.

However, I wouldnt use the genes until the horse had proven itself in its own right as there are just too many unkowns with cloning
 
My comment was not directed purely at this clone, I was talking about clones in general. I know that frozen can keep a stallion going for longer than nature intended, but with clones it becomes the never ending story. I can see in the future, as a stallion reaches his twilight years up will pop his clone to carry on where he has left off! If that is not bloodlines going round and round in circles, then I don't know what is...........
 
I was reading something very interesting about cloned bulls:

I am referring to the PBR finals this week. The clones are 4 of the 6 from the world champion bull, Panhandle Slim. Of the 6, one died (not sure why), one "would not buck" (don't have the info other than that statement) and the other 4 are very good bulls, chosen as part of the herd of only 120 to compete at this year's finals, but according to Ty Murray, 9 time world champion and one of the founders of the PBR, they are competing at "just a notch under the donor bull's abilities". Also, the original Slim was one of the meanest bulls ever to buck, he would get you EVERY time. But the clones, while more tempermental than some, are not as mean as the donor. So at least in this experiment, when compared to each other and then back on to the success of the original.......they are good.... but not as good as the "ole man himself".

Interesting because bulls are not trained they either have it or not. Also I am guessing their environment, handling etc would all be very similar where as with horses it can vary hugely. So its interesting from a purely physical and mental side.
 
Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

I do hope that all the clones get out there and show us that it is the bloodlines and not the fact that the original horse was in the right place at the right time resulting in his success. It is interesting regarding Gem Twist, as I wonder if he would have been so successful if he had been a stallion, or would the hormones have got to him.
 
I would use a clone but only if it was competed and proved itself.

I get the feeling many don't want to compete the clones because if they don't get the results the stud fee will be less and less people will be willing to use them.
 
I am not keen on clones, although I am happy to see that they will be able to compete. Re the cloning of geldings.....well you have to ask yourself why they were a gelding in the first place, also the fact that they were good in sport could have been down to that fact. Would they have had the concentration as a stallion had they been entire.....time will tell.

I think you will need at least 10 years + to know whether they will work or not, as who it to say that mother nature does not put any kind of defective gene in there that wont be known until their offspring come of age.

For instance we now have two Jazz clones on top of the original.......do we really need three Jazz's in the world? I agree with Cruiseline that this could in effect reduce a gene pool because we could still have a Jazz standing at stud in 200 years time and can we REALLY call that progression in the world of breeding.......only time will tell.

Wonder what would happen if this was done in humans, if we started cloning our parents and children........ Mother nature always has a way of putting a sting in her tail.
 
I also agree the clones should get out there and compete, we all know that what makes a good horse isn't solely down to the genes so for this horse to maximise his potential coverings surely most would want to see him getting out there and doing it himself. Braveness and the will to win can't be cloned so I think these animals do have something to prove to a certain extent. I know I would want to see some sort of proof before using one, although I have nothing against it in theory.

I actually think it would be an awesome experiment to clone the same horse ten times, give a clone to ten different top producers and then have them compete against each other. Would then see the extent of nature versus nurture!

There's definitely no doubt Gem's Twist was the best showjumper in the world at that time, but it is a different game today and it does make you wonder if he would have been quite as exceptional in current times.
 
Pippin79 said:
we all know that what makes a good horse isn't solely down to the genes .
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but what a stallion passes on can only be its genes, whether those genes have been proved competing in that animal (the clone) or in another animal I don't really see that it makes a breeding difference.
 
One of the genetic cloning scientists said that epigenetics maybe the thing that might make the original stallion a superstar in sport whilst its clone fails. It is known that epigenetic cause the difference in markings. I would love to hear some one independent look at the Jazz clones when a bit older and say whether they are a complete mirror of Jazz. Will they move the same, have exactly the same conformation or is that something epigenetics affects that as well? Maybe when technology is a bit better they can tweak the clones DNA so it is a Jazz with not such a hot temp ;-) Where does it end? I have my Jazz mare already thankfully so I know she is from the real one!

I said a while back on here that we would not be breeding soon but choosing our horses out of a catalogue. My French is rubbish but I think the first catalogue is out!!! http://www.cryozootech.com/index.php?m=152a8e0df8f6&d=152a8e0df8f6&l=en

I don't think I will use cloned stallions.

If every dressage rider at the Olympics was riding Jazz it still would not make a level playing field as riders tend to suit different horses and how boring would it be :-(
 
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ester said:
but what a stallion passes on can only be its genes, whether those genes have been proved competing in that animal (the clone) or in another animal I don't really see that it makes a breeding difference.
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I understand this but as Gem's Twist was unproven as a sire, by his clone competing it should give an indication as to the extent of which the attributes that made Gem's Twist as great as he was are passed on in his DNA, and will have a good chance of being passed onto his offspring. I realise anyone makes this decision when using an unproven sire, but with the clone I'm sure there could be other factors/unknown quantities with the epigenetics that I don't understand, so for me personally I would like to see the owners producing the clone to perform. I'm sure plenty will use him though so they may not need to, and as DNA wise he is effectively a world champion already you can of course say he has nothing to prove, but to me its all still a bit unknown and I'd be interested to see what his abilities are himself.

As there is already another four year old Gem's Twist clone on the ground who is now available for use over here, I'm not sure how people would choose which of the clones to use once they are both available, I'm guessing it would come down to price or their own performance record, as effectively they're both going to grow into the same horse. I'm sure there is an agreement for these two clones between their owners but could get a bit complicated if in the future clones were ordered en masse from a catalogue?!?
 
I think it's already been proven that you can have an identical set of genes in a horse but they won't be in the same league as a performer or as a sire.

Like saddlers wells full brother Fairy King - very low class as a sire nowhere near the same degree of potency or success at stud

Shutterflys full brother sir shutter fly - useless as a performance horse and as a sire .
 
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