Gem Twist Reborn!

AndyPandy

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Reposted from EqRepro.com

The latest cloning news comes from the European cloning firm Cryozootech, who have today announced the birth of a clone of the three-time "American Grand Prix Association Horse of the Year", legendary American Thoroughbred gelding showjumper "Gem Twist".

Gem Twist - owned and bred by Frank and Mary Chapot - was much loved by followers of the sport of showjumping for an entire generation, winning two Silver Medals at the 1988 Seoul Olympic Games under Greg Best, as well as Team Silver at the Pan-American Games, and numerous other Grand Prix. In 1990 he was named the "World's Best Horse" at the World Equestrian Games in Stockholm.

The only real "downside" To Gem Twist was that he was a gelding - and therefore unable to pass on his excellent genetic material to please future generation of showjumping fans - but now, with this clone, he can!

How exciting
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That is a very interesting website, thanks for the link.

A clone, as I understand is an identical copy of the original?????

The clone of Poetin has an extra white sock, just goes to prove that white markings on horses are environmentally determined and not genetically pre determined.
 
Yep - genetically identical.

So when people say "Oh, but it doesn't have the same spirit, and hasn't competed to the same level, and hasn't had the same nurture etc." that is an irrelevance. The GENETIC endowment of a clone is exactly that of the animal it was cloned from. The clone therefore passes on the exact same genetics as the original animal.

And yes, markings are heavily influenced in-utero... base colour though, is not, as that is genetically determined.

Very cool
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OK, Nature V Nurture,

As Gem Twist was a gelding, there is no evidence that he will pass on his talents to his offspring. His was a proven performer, but an un-proven producer.

Also, if he had been in different hands, would they have even considered cloning him if he hadn't has the nurture that took him to the top.

I can understand the clone of Chellano Z, as he has proven that his genes are passed to the next generation.

Interesting!!!!
 
Of course, but the fact that the genetics are the base for his performance is very important. His environment and nurture occurred in addition to his genetic endowment, so therefore it must be possible for him to pass on those same genetics. It's possible that his genetics were more important than the nurture, or vice-versa. He may have performed as well as he did under a variety of conditions/different trainers & riders/different nurturing.

We won't know until he has some kids on the ground and they are out competing (or not if they are -that- bad
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), but the potential IS there, and I think that's the important thing.
 
It is fascinating, just think of all those geldings that were outstanding in their field, that may now become producers of the future.

It is also a little scary, are we now going to see the legends of the future actually being the legends of the past.
 
Quite interesting this as the Americans have moved away from using thoroughbred's for showjumping and using more european bloodlines because courses are more technical with lighter poles so the horses need to be more accurate than in Gem Twist times. This does raise the question of the purpose of the clone.
 
I am pretty sure that with the markings on clones the percentage of white on the body is the same, however with solid-coloured horses, the genes will code for the white to generally move distally--away from the body--and towards the face or hooves ... but the exact location where the white ends up is determined by factors in utero.

I have mixed feelings about cloning animals which have already had the opportunity to contribute their genetics to breeding (less qualms about cloning a gelding which hasn't had any offspring, or cloning a mare which is capable of having fewer), but it certainly makes a fantastic exercise in learning about nature v. nuture factors! I suspect that we will find that cloning demonstrates to us the importance of having a reproductively excellent recipient mare for both cloned and E.T. foals.

I am watching all of this cloning news with great interest ... and can honestly say I wouldn't turn down Gem Twist semen if I had the right mare, and it was offered in the future!
 
The only way we will find out if it really is nature v nurture is if the clone actually goes out and competes itself.

Or are these clones just going to be living sperm banks!!!!!!!!!

What are the QdR clones doing now competitions, sperm bank, or are they too young????

The Arab clone on the website is only going to be used as a sperm bank apparently.
 
I think their sole purpose is going to be to exist as a living sperm bank. The costs involved in producing a clone are so great I'm not sure they could justify sending it out competing - I may be wrong though
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I really does all sound a bit scary. Are we looking at the future of competition horses, a never ending supply of semen from the greats!!!!! Every other horse in the arena will be related, the excitement of a new great sire turning up to stamp his legacy on the history of the sport will have gone forever.

When the clone dies, are they just going to clone it again.
 
Surely that situation is fairly unlikely to occur? Stallions go out of fashion... so I very much doubt that it would be financially viable to keep doing it, as people just wouldn't keep buying the semen, or using those stallions to breed from.
 
Thats why I don't like cloning. Leave it to the decision of the breeder to chose and leave the rest to nature and training. Didn't Hitler want to do the same by breeding the 'perfect race' ........ Where will it end?

Actually they are also starting to clone riders. Stick a hat on Whitaker and they all look the same
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Actually they are also starting to clone riders. Stick a hat on Whitaker and they all look the same
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that made me chuckle too.
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A Clone class, where all the horses shared the same genetics would give us a chance to judge how well riders were producing the horses and less about the horses ability. Now that would cut the wheat from the chaff!

That said, identical twins can have some big character differences, so there is no accounting for that. Also the donor mare may make a difference to the clones aptitude to life. Some maternal traits much surely pass through the umbilical cord? Anyone agree??
 
Yes I agree.

Here in the UAE, they decided to try and breed some big arabians for racing and endurance, so they imported some big mares, shires I think to carry the ET foals.

Yes the foals were on average bigger than normal, but the mares were so placid they did not discipline their feisty babies. They turned out to be the most obnoxious, unmanageable little sh@ts you have ever met. Completely off the chart. Not one of them ever got to the track, several never even got under saddle. The whole project was squashed.

I think that the surrogate mother has more to do with a foal, than anyone really wants to admit.

I have also seen an ET foal from stunning blood lines, the surrogate mare that it was with was not nice!!!!! The foal looked just like her, ewe neck, weak back, hind legs in another county. I know it could have been a bad combination from the biological parents, but they had produced some stunning foals in the past.

Interesting!!!!!!!!

A clone class would be great
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I don't think that £350K is a lot of money how much would someone pay for another Milton, Arko, Ratina Z? How much did Oki Doki get sold for? As long as you could jump them they would be worth millions.
 
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There is a great deal of variation, but £100,000 - £350,000 is the current average range of costs, as far as I am aware.

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A stallion could make that return quite quickly, especially on of the Greats. As the technology develops and more companies get involved the cost usually goes down.
 
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