Gene pools.

[severnmiles]

Are small gene pools responsible for health issues in dogs?

As shown on 'Pedigree dogs exposed' some breeders will use a father on daughter. In the wild, male wolves and other such wild mammals will often 'cover' their own daughter and its even been seen for brothers and sisters to start a new pack together. There are approx 200 dingos on Fraser Island, all whom descend from several foundation dingo's, there are however no double headed dingos or diseases wiping the breed out.

Yet a few members of this forum seem to believe that small gene pools are creating health issues in dogs...

So discuss.

 

[Acolyte]

Personally I dont believe that the sort of problems highlighted in 'Pedigree Dogs' are a result of limited gene pools... I think they are a result of selective breeding.

Think how Darwin proved that finches on the Galapagos (sp?) islands had evolved different types of beak to allow them to focus on one type of food source?

I think the same has happened in the breeding of some pedigree dogs, where the selection of breeding stock which has particular physical characteristics has resulted in breeds which now show extremes of that physical characteristic. In some cases these specimens of the breed are so extreme that they are no longer healthy.

Quite where (for example) syringomyelia has come from in cavaliers I have no idea, although Mum has been a breeder for 27 years now.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I'm not a genetics expert, but Horand v Grafath is recognised as the 'Adam' of the GSD breed and most lines can be traced back to him, as far as I am aware.

 

[severnmiles]

H_H, you're pretty clued up on GSD's. Do you know of the Rustenberg kennels?

 

[severnmiles]

I agree regarding selective breeding.

Did you see in countrymans weekly the English Bull Terrier, have to admit I prefer the one from a hundred years ago.


When did they first start to see Syringomyelia in Cavs?

 

[kirstyhen]

Sometimes I think small gene pools, or small numbers in a breed can contribute to health problems, but not in a direct way. People are so keen to re-populate the breed/enlarge the gene pool that they breed willy-nilly and dogs that otherwise would not be bred from, be it due to health problems or a lack of quality, are used and we end up with huge numbers of average dogs possibly with a text book full of health problems.

So what I am trying to say is it is not the small gene pool which creates the problem, but breeders seeing it as a problem and reacting in the wrong way.

Not sure if that makes any sense!

 

[Henbug]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I dont believe that the sort of problems highlighted in 'Pedigree Dogs' are a result of limited gene pools... I think they are a result of selective breeding.

Think how Darwin proved that finches on the Galapagos (sp?) islands had evolved different types of beak to allow them to focus on one type of food source?

I think the same has happened in the breeding of some pedigree dogs, where the selection of breeding stock which has particular physical characteristics has resulted in breeds which now show extremes of that physical characteristic. In some cases these specimens of the breed are so extreme that they are no longer healthy.

Quite where (for example) syringomyelia has come from in cavaliers I have no idea, although Mum has been a breeder for 27 years now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absoloutley agree with you here the perfect examples are pugs. They've been selectivley bred for their squashed in noses and now many of them have breathing problems because of it.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Not off the top of my head, SM.

Heard of Rustanville (sp?) though....how far back are we going? Location? Working/show/obedience?

I prefer 'geek' to 'clued up'

 

[Ravenwood]

Personally I think that the health issues arise from the lack of integrity of some breeders. There are many cases (I know a few myself) who will breed from a show winning/good standard of breed even though it may have a health fault (such as high hip scores) because the pups will be valuable due the name in the pedigree.

I know breeders who will dismiss some health problems in the belief that there is little chance that it will be passed down (they can't ignore the pound signs in their eyes).

I own a Lab with OCD in his elbows - an hereditary disease. The breeder (my friend) did not know that this was present in the line. She wanted to breed from my Lab's sister to continue her line but I persuaded her to have the dog elbow scored (along with hips and eyes) - it got the worst scores.

My point is however, had I not told this person about the elbow problem, she would not have had the bitch tested and therefore would have continued breeding and hence the disease would multiply in this breed of dog - and this is just one small time breeder I am talking about.

I also believe that there is a lot of ignorance where it comes to people buying pups aswell and that breeders feed on that.

I also know people who have used a small gene pool to increase the number of dogs of a dying breed - they were extremely selective and have had good results. Luckily they now have contacts abroad and have had foreigns studs come in and vice versa.

PS: I didn't see the pedigree programme - I wish I had!

 

[Acolyte]

I always have been a fan of EBTs but I was quite shocked to see them on that programme, sure they (the programme makers) selected their photo angles etc but they seemed to be more extreme than I had remembered? I would agree about preferring older versions...

Not sure about the syringomyelia TBH, Mum has only mentioned it over the last 18 months or so as far as I can remember... but then I dont encourage her to talk dog showing/breeding when we get together

 

[Acolyte]

Ravenwood - the programme was still on BBC I Player earlier this evening?

 

[severnmiles]

Geek it is!!

They were in Germany, show/breeding. Will have to find her papers, she's 10 now so I assume they're still going.

 

[severnmiles]

Totally agree!

 

[Bess]

This is not something I know a lot about but it is interesting. The BBC programme said that CKCS were breed from a gene pool of about 50 dogs, less than the Ruandan mountain gorillas and God knows they are endangered but for other reasons.

 

[severnmiles]

Regarding the lab aren't those health checks mandatory before breeding if you want to register the pups?

Our friend has an ESS who is kc reg etc and works but has had two operations as she had no/shallow hip sockets which is also hereditary.

 

[kirstyhen]

We have a Irish Water Spaniel (I may have mentioned that once or twice before

) and their numbers are reletively small, but his breeder has gone to huge lengths to increase numbers whilst retaining the breeds integrity. I think alot of breeders lose sight of that goal one the breed becomes "endangered".

 

[CorvusCorax]

Right, SM, you've piqued my curiosity now, must find out more! Was it someone from here who moved there with a new prefix or is it a German kennel?

 

[severnmiles]

One more question, can health problems, whether in people/horses/dogs e.t.c ever be fully eradicated?

 

[pingpong]

Its not the size of the gene pools with established breeds, its breeders breeding too close. With a type like the BI/NI they are very inbred due to a lack of breeders in the first place. I have a pedigree here with 6 lines back to the same dog in 4 generations, this is what causes the problems. Mahlek bred Dogs dominate, how many could there have been to establish an entire breed?

I think health testing sould be like on the continent, if your dog doesnt pass health, conformation and temperament testing, it cant be bred from.

 

[Acolyte]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not something I know a lot about but it is interesting. The BBC programme said that CKCS were breed from a gene pool of about 50 dogs, less than the Ruandan mountain gorillas and God knows they are endangered but for other reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that was pugs? But probably right about CKCS too, I remember as a kid doing a 10-generation pedigree for my cavalier and the same names came up 10 generations ago...

But I would think that is common with most breeds of dog if you go back that far? To me that is an indicator of the selective breeding idea that I have put forward?

 

[severnmiles]

[ QUOTE ]
I think health testing sould be like on the continent, if your dog doesnt pass health, conformation and temperament testing, it cant be bred from.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, similar to grading in horses... But with certain bent establishments and a who's who of dog breeding could we really trust this system?

 

[kirstyhen]

[ QUOTE ]
One more question, can health problems, whether in people/horses/dogs e.t.c ever be fully eradicated?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because there will always be at least one irresponsible breeder, and people are far too soft! The age old thing of, we'll just let her have one litter, because won't the puppies be cute and I bet she would love to be a mum. Or let's create a new breed with a cute name and not one person will ensure the stud dogs are healthy... Labradoodle anyone!

People would never be health problem free because no one regulates our breeding, although I can think of many cases where it should be!

 

[Acolyte]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think health testing sould be like on the continent, if your dog doesnt pass health, conformation and temperament testing, it cant be bred from.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, similar to grading in horses... But with certain bent establishments and a who's who of dog breeding could we really trust this system?

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree with that - I think it is the way we SHOULD be going in the UK but I don't believe it will ever happen. I think the Kennel Club are weak and ineffectual, dog showing generally seems to operate as some kind of world of its own, and as Henmeister says I think there are always people who will try and do something different....

 

[antiantianti]

IMO It's not the size of the gene pool it's people breeding with low quality dogs. In the wild the inferior dogs don't get to breed.

 

[severnmiles]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO It's not the size of the gene pool it's people breeding with low quality dogs. In the wild the inferior dogs don't get to breed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right...is that the problem with the human race too

 

[severnmiles]

[ QUOTE ]
Right, SM, you've piqued my curiosity now, must find out more! Was it someone from here who moved there with a new prefix or is it a German kennel?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they were German though there must be a link to England otherwise I doubt Heidi would have ended up here.

 

[Serenity087]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO It's not the size of the gene pool it's people breeding with low quality dogs. In the wild the inferior dogs don't get to breed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right...is that the problem with the human race too

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to say both points myself and got beaten to it! Dammit!

Eejits who breed 'pure' and 'true' tend to ignore pressing health issues. They don't want the dogs to look perfect or have extreme anything, it's simply snootiness with the lines.

It's the same in horses as well. To be able to brag so and so lines, or such and such as a sire, they'll ignore pressing health issues because who really gives a damn if the thing suffers and dies, as long as it breeds good lines.

The trend is spreading, what with the UK's first lethal white foal this spring. What sort of blithering idiot breeds two most white coloured horses? Someone going for lines and not caring about the welfare of the horses involved, thats who!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Damn you SM, I am now reading a Gallery of Champions from 1955-1958 just to see how much inbreeding and linebreeding was going on (a lot, by the way) and my mother is laughing her head off at me and calling me a nerd.

Lots of the popular males are appearing at least twice in a three-gen pedigree.

Interesting that some bred on certain lines were the ones that were riddled with epilepsy and were scared of their shadows (anecdotally, I wasn't around at the time), others just as inbred but on different lines were renowned in the breed for their brains and working ability and collected multiple titles and are still talked about today.

This place is doing nothing for my reputation.....

 

[Acolyte]

[ QUOTE ]
Eejits who breed 'pure' and 'true' tend to ignore pressing health issues. They don't want the dogs to look perfect or have extreme anything, it's simply snootiness with the lines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not with any of the dog breeders I have ever known.... and sadly I have known a fair few....

They want perfection from a show point of view, end of.

 

[Starbucks]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO It's not the size of the gene pool it's people breeding with low quality dogs. In the wild the inferior dogs don't get to breed.


[/ QUOTE ]

True - but in the wild the superior dogs would be the fittest/healthiest/toughest etc. In the case of puggs, CKCS etc. the superior dogs are those which we think are most fitting to the breed type - so a completely different thing IMO.

I think the point with the small gene pool is that certain breeds do have serious problems with genetic conditions, for what ever reasons, and if other genes aren't brought into the the breed, they will not improve, in fact get worse.

That is my understanding of it anyway.