General questions about horse ownership including from charities

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VP2009

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Hello, I have some general questions I have always wondered and have never been sure about.


1.) When you have a horse on loan, is there any reason, or under any circumstances the loanee would have the passport changed to their ownership? I know they retain a copy for vaccinations / travel etc but surely the owner remains the owner unless the horses eventually becomes gifted or the loanee buys the horse from the owner.


2.) What are the rules with gifting? Surely this is where you don't pay any money for the horse but you own it and can do what you like with it e.g. selling it.




3.) What's the point of getting a horse from a charity whereby ownership is changed? I'm not familiar with all charities but I think one of the charities that do this is "horses4homes", what's the point of changing ownership in this case if the horse can never be sold on? Why don't they just do a permanent loan like the blue cross do?




4.) If you are the owner in a horse's passport and it's been stamped by an organisation / official / sales then is there any way this can be defied??


5.) Are there any other main differences between a permanent loan and ownership apart from selling on?


6.) What does lease mean? And do you own the horse here? Is this like a payment scheme to buy the horse or is it just renting the horse like you do when you share it? In which case, why would anyone want to pay to lease a horse and then pay running costs on top if it wasn't to eventually own it? Wouldn't a loan be better?


7.) If you buy a horse that has had a contract previously i.e. a showjumper that 5 years ago was sold to never jump again on contract but these people had sold it on and those people had sold it on and eventually it got to a dealer that brought it back into work and sold it as an allrounder ? Would the new buyer be any wiser? The dealer may not know either? How could this be traced? If it was traced back who would be at fault? If the new new new new new owners several years down the line were happy to keep the said horse despite discovering a contract it once had many moons ago is that ok?


Many friends have said people sell horses on contracts and people never stick to them.

8.) When selling or buying a horse under contract does a solicitor/lawyer have to be present when both parties sign in order to make things legally binding? A lot of people have told me these contracts are only as good as the paper they're written on... Whatever that means.


I'm completely clueless when it comes to buying and selling having only ever sold one horse in my life time but have always been put off by charities due to the restrictions and I've never needed a companion. You hear about dealers getting away with all sorts of things and they're still trading.

Oh which brings me to another question

9.) Do any of the above clauses/factors/points change as to whether you're a private seller or a trader? Can trading standards only get involved if it's a business?


10.) If you buy a horse on contract but are unable to get in contact with the previous owner who put the contract in place and need to sell the horse what do you do? If the contract was only drawn up by the seller not an organisation? Presumably you can't keep the horse forever if the old owner is unreachable? So can you just sell it?

Sorry for the questions but I have never loaned before. Friends have loaned their horses out in the past with those BHS loan agreements and apparently there's nothing to make the loaners stick to these and essentially they can get away with more or less anything apart from selling the horse as that's presumably stealing. In either case, I've heard bad experiences about loaning whether loaning a horse out or being a loanee.


　


Thanks ever so much to anyone that can even attempt to answer some of these wonders that have been niggling away at me for some time. x x x
 
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No time to reply to all, but number 6 re leasing. Yes it's like renting the horse, not buying in installments. It's usually confined to high quality performance, show or breeding horses, often leased for the season. It would not be sensible to lease the average horse.
 
A lot of questions!!!

1 the loaner should have the passport but the owner retains ownership and it can be recorded with the issuers that the horse is on loan and the passport should not be changed.
2 I don't think gifting has rules, usually a token amount changes hands so that there is a receipt, it is more of a moral dilemma, if the gift is done to secure the horses future expecting the new owner to keep it for life, whether it is then morally right to sell it on possibly at an increased price but there is nothing to stop this being done.

6 leasing is usually done to enable the person to have a more valuable, experienced horse than they could otherwise afford, sometimes done with good ponies to enable the owner to keep control but recoup some of the value rather than selling, friends of mine leased a pony paying £1k per year, the owners over a 5 year period got it's value but still have him back when he retires, the people who leased got a very good pony with little risk of losing anything other than the £1k each year they paid.

7 I think any contract would be void once the horse changed hands the next time, even a LOU branded horse can return to the job it was not able to do at the time the claim was made, you just cannot insure for that purpose.
 
Nothing to do with my racehorse as she's not on loan and not from a charity and not gifted. Just general questions I have always wanted to know and my friends and I have been discussing it and a lot of them don't have accounts on here.
WindyStacks said:
Is this about your racehorse? I'm sure an equine lawyer can help. Have you spoken to the bhs yet?
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My mistake. It read EXACTLY like you were trying to offload the racehorse without the trainer finding out (point 7).

What a coincidence!
 
A horse can not return to racing once the old owner has put a non racing agreement on it .
Racing is effectively a club and they make their own rules and it's a good rule it allows horses that owners do not want to return to the rigours of training to find new homes and new jobs .
I have a horse where I made an agreement with the old owner that I would offer him first refusal on the horse if I sold it on .
Of course I would set the price ( I made sure that clause was in ) it's unlikely they would want him back he's a TB and it's an attempt to establish a horse in a new home while trying to make sure it can't end up anywhere unsuitable .
A solicitor does not have be present to make a contract binding and a contract can be formed without anything being in writing contacts can be written verbal or in some cases implied .
Of course written is best .
I also have a gifted horse .
We wrote and agreement which I signed and the owner which was I would not pass the horse out of my ownership and I would PTS at home ( or the vets ) or elsewhere in an emergency , it does stop me loaning him say if my OH ( it's Fatty )died but it stops me selling him .
Whether either of these would stand up in court I have no idea it's not relevant because I would never dream of going back on an undertaking I had given .
There are difference between private sellers and businesses and with a TB the contract might with an owner ( private individual ) not a trainer .
Trading standard will involve themselves with dishonest horse dealers passport irregularities etc , but a miss sold horse say a horse for a novice that rears will probably mean you need to take the dealer to the small claims court yourself .
You need to have your eyes open when you buy and sell .
 
On point 7 if you are referring to returning a horse to racing , once it's been subject to a non racing agreement it would not be permitted to race again ( I 've had a couple of these in the past ) .
 
I think its very hard and expensive for any owner to trace and reclaim a horse it is sold/passed on. I have had a couple of ponies passported one was 13 and both occasions the vet did not check for a previous chip. As to passport enforcement, Trading standards do not see it as a priority, as the horse is not normally in the human food chain. Evidence of this lack of concern in the response from Leicester Trading standards and the lack of passports for animals in their area.
'Trading standards state, they will not entertain enforcement of welfare law on any animal which is not destined to enter the food chain, end of. They will not enforce any passport regulations in Leicestershire.
'https://www.facebook.com/pages/Help-the-horses-of-Fosse-Park-Leicester/215018828693901?fref=ts
So an owner would have to track the animal, get evidence, (how do you get near an animal on someone else's premises?), and proceed under the civil courts which for most people would not be worth the value of the animal, an animal charity may have the funds and the will.
For some reason I do not understand the theft of horses seems to be treated differently by the police than the theft of any other property, and they seem unwilling to investigate even if there is a 'smoking gun'. So basically when you loan or sell with conditions I think unless you have money or have studied the law you are relying on peoples integrity and your own judgement. The chances that DEFA, Trading standards or the police are going to help you are zilch.
 
Thanks you seem really knowledgeable. A couple of my friends have sold horses on contracts with kissing spines etc that have been sold on and have be brought back into work when they were meant to have "forever homes". Disgusting I know, but when people moan about it on facebook people often reply with "well if you valued the horse that much you shouldn't have sold it in the first place or should have had it pts / companion".

It's hard with these things.

A friend put a horse out on loan and used the BHS loan agreement and stated she needed notice to return the horse as she was working abroad and the people just said they didn't want it anymore and there was nothing she could do and just had to make other arrangements.

honetpot said:
I think its very hard and expensive for any owner to trace and reclaim a horse it is sold/passed on. I have had a couple of ponies passported one was 13 and both occasions the vet did not check for a previous chip. As to passport enforcement, Trading standards do not see it as a priority, as the horse is not normally in the human food chain. Evidence of this lack of concern in the response from Leicester Trading standards and the lack of passports for animals in their area.
'Trading standards state, they will not entertain enforcement of welfare law on any animal which is not destined to enter the food chain, end of. They will not enforce any passport regulations in Leicestershire.
'https://www.facebook.com/pages/Help-the-horses-of-Fosse-Park-Leicester/215018828693901?fref=ts
So an owner would have to track the animal, get evidence, (how do you get near an animal on someone else's premises?), and proceed under the civil courts which for most people would not be worth the value of the animal, an animal charity may have the funds and the will.
For some reason I do not understand the theft of horses seems to be treated differently by the police than the theft of any other property, and they seem unwilling to investigate even if there is a 'smoking gun'. So basically when you loan or sell with conditions I think unless you have money or have studied the law you are relying on peoples integrity and your own judgement. The chances that DEFA, Trading standards or the police are going to help you are zilch.
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None of my questions are in reference to thoroughbreds or racing. I often see quite nice sports horses etc on these charities websites hence why I was asking the question. I also don't know anyone that has loaned a horse from a trainer I meant more in regards to an allrounder and like someone pointed out above, you only really lease expensive competition horses, presumably not a 3yo ex racer or something so I'm not sure where you have got that idea from sorry.
Goldenstar said:
On point 7 if you are referring to returning a horse to racing , once it's been subject to a non racing agreement it would not be permitted to race again ( I 've had a couple of these in the past ) .
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The quick answer is that getting involved with anything other than a straightforward sale / purchase is a PITA.
 
Unfortunately I have had a couple of friends who have had to use both the law and the police to try and get property and money returned and even through the value has ben thousands the legal costs made it so expensive, then you still have to win and get the people to pay up it was better not to bother.
 
I got a horse from Horses4Homes last year. The reason the ownership is signed over is to stop the horse being sent back to the original owner, although it may be written in to the contract that they are to get first refusal on the horse. It also removes any liability from them, as they are no longer the legal owner.
 
Sorry I might be a little thick but could you expand on this a little more. And do they get first refusal on the price you paid for the horse or market value? And oh I see about liability... Do you mean with injuries and such?
Regandal said:
I got a horse from Horses4Homes last year. The reason the ownership is signed over is to stop the horse being sent back to the original owner, although it may be written in to the contract that they are to get first refusal on the horse. It also removes any liability from them, as they are no longer the legal owner.
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I can't speak for others who have taken on horses from Horses4Homes, but in my case the transfer of ownership agreement states that if I can no longer look after him (I assume financial or health probs) then I have to offer the previous owner the chance to have him back. Free, as I paid nothing for him. Various things can be written into these agreements I assume, tailored to the situation, but mainly to stop the horse being passed on to unsuitable homes. Their vetting is rigorous. Not sure how these agreements hold up in law though. Fingers crossed it will never happen, he'll see out his days with me.
Yes, ownership bestows liability for everything.
 
It's a minefield. My friend took on a pony from a rescue, for her young daugther, on what was a permement rehome, though the horse could not be passed on. They backed the pony, schooled it on and went out competing quite successfully. When the girl outgrew the pony they had to return the pony to the charity. They didn't have the equity to invest in another competing at the same level so had to start again. This time they bought outright. The horse they bought was actually less than charities are advertising 'rehomes' at. They will now never be in that situation again.

I was chatting to my friend about this (as it came up in the thread the other day so I mentioned it to her) and it turns out the charity didn't rehome the pony for a donation they sold it outright for £4500 - seems money tops welfare with some charities...
 
Fides said:
It's a minefield. My friend took on a pony from a rescue, for her young daugther, on what was a permement rehome, though the horse could not be passed on. They backed the pony, schooled it on and went out competing quite successfully. When the girl outgrew the pony they had to return the pony to the charity.
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Some 'charities' are good little money spinners imo. Not sure how legit they are in the UK but over here they are most certainly businesses, akin to dealers in many cases. The horses are often bought for peanuts at the auctions, taken back and fed up a bit, then sold for decent money on an adoption-only basis, and must be returned free of charge if the horse doesn't work out or is outgrown. Some horses I see at one 'charity' over here, go from new home to new home, bringing in the 'charity' a fair bit of money each time the horse is rehomed. I'm not talking sold for pennies, some of these horses are adopted out for a few thousand dollars each time!
 
OMG :O
Fides said:
It's a minefield. My friend took on a pony from a rescue, for her young daugther, on what was a permement rehome, though the horse could not be passed on. They backed the pony, schooled it on and went out competing quite successfully. When the girl outgrew the pony they had to return the pony to the charity. They didn't have the equity to invest in another competing at the same level so had to start again. This time they bought outright. The horse they bought was actually less than charities are advertising 'rehomes' at. They will now never be in that situation again.

I was chatting to my friend about this (as it came up in the thread the other day so I mentioned it to her) and it turns out the charity didn't rehome the pony for a donation they sold it outright for £4500 - seems money tops welfare with some charities...
Click to expand...
 
There are sadly only two options for horses that no longer fit the bill what ever the reason one is to sell and forget about it the other is to shoot it. These are the only ways you can legally get an animal away from you that don't result in anxiety and heartbreak of deception.
I an a cynic now I don't expect people to honour anything now as it only results in me being disappointed by them. I will never loan or lend another horse and will never expect even good friends to keep their word as it rarely happens So sell and be damned or PTS and be sure from here I am even dubious about selling anything as horses are sentient beings and can behave completely differently with different people so one sold in honest opinion may turn out to be a very different animal in a different regime
 
windand rain said:
There are sadly only two options for horses that no longer fit the bill what ever the reason one is to sell and forget about it the other is to shoot it. These are the only ways you can legally get an animal away from you that don't result in anxiety and heartbreak of deception.
I an a cynic now I don't expect people to honour anything now as it only results in me being disappointed by them. I will never loan or lend another horse and will never expect even good friends to keep their word as it rarely happens So sell and be damned or PTS and be sure from here I am even dubious about selling anything as horses are sentient beings and can behave completely differently with different people so one sold in honest opinion may turn out to be a very different animal in a different regime
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Agree :( sad no one sticks to their word
 
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