Genetics

[Moobli]

https://www.facebook.com/share/1CaTiuSd9c/?mibextid=wwXIfr

As is said so often on here genetics are the biggest predictor of an adult dog’s temperament.

Just anecdotal evidence but I have working sheepdogs who have never been off the farm as pups who then take a trip to the beach or a town completely in their stride, are friendly to all and don’t react negatively to anything - despite having had no “formal” socialisation. Conversely I have had GSD pups brought up by experienced breeders, in a busy household with other dogs, kids etc who were reactive to various stimuli as adults despite having been “socialised” to it as pups - other dogs being a big one in GSDs. The easiest, most reliable and balanced dog I’ve owned was a working line GSD who I got from an experienced commercial breeder (who knows her lines) at 8 months old who was completely green. He took a little while to get used to new things but once he’d experienced them once or twice he was totally fine. He also never reacted negatively to other dogs (even if they reacted to him), was fantastic with my small son and his friends, great with livestock, travelled all over with me including on ferries and was just chilled. I have his son now and he isn’t quite his father (as he can be unpredictable with other dogs) but I can see many similarities.

Now if only it were possible to choose how the genetics from ancestors were distributed in individual pups, that would be great.

 

[I'm Dun]

Cooper is interesting, his brother, the one in the litter that looked most like him is very nervous and anxious, (I'm not in touch with the others so not sure about them), Cooper is bold and outgoing on the surface but underneath it all is a worrier. But Cooper was brought up with my other dog who is phased by nothing and loves everyone and everything. Easiest, sweetest dog I've ever met. I think without him, no matter what I did, Cooper would have been nervous. I can take both of them anywhere, walk through packed streets in Oxford on a Saturday. Use buses, trains, they've lived on boats, caravans and in hotels for a while and not turned a hair at any of it. But I think as a single dog Cooper might have been very different. Floyd is his crutch. I've had to put a ton of work into him to get him confident without Floyd.

Floyd is like that mainly because of nature, he just popped out of the womb a middle aged dog without a care in the world, he is just like that, Cooper is the way he is much more due to nuture. I've always said if I could clone Floyd hed make millions as he is literally the perfect pet. Floyd was bred from working parents with no drive especially to be a pet, he's a bit dim in the sweetest way, Cooper was bred to race and work he is sharp as a tack and the most intelligent dog Ive ever met. He is like the raptors in jurassic park, always thinking, always problem solving and usually one step ahead of me! Hes the sports car equivalent of a whippet, Floydy, bless him, is more of a Fiesta. I bought Cooper for a purpose so the work it takes to keep him steady is fine, if I'd bought him wanting a laid back pet Id have been distraught. He didn't want to race and for a while it looked like I was stuck with a racing bred, working bred dog with limited opportunity for him to work and no chance of him racing. Not fun! Thankfully he did his race training this weekend and it all suddenly clicked and he got it. But I was getting a bit worried about what exactly his job was going to be, and believe me, he needs a job!

I'm rambling now and even I'm not sure what I was trying to say other than don't buy working bred performance dogs for pets unless you genuinely want a working bred performance dog and all that entails because genetics will out even if a good upbringing can mitigate that.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Totally agree with the FB post and have seen it myself with my own eyes in a few different contexts.

But you really need to go backaways a couple of generations on both sides to really know what comes from where and why the puppy you buy or the rescue you take on isn't just the dog in front of you, it's the product of all the other dogs behind it. Environmental input has an impact but how they *react to things*, while you can help them cope better, is largely genetic.

 

[Moobli]

Definitely not as straightforward as just looking at the sire and dam. Needs generational study, and how many owners (or even breeders) have the knowledge to do that! Certainly not me.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Most breeds have a good few breeders, judges, historians, geeks etc to ask lol. Always important to tell them what *I* like rather than ask them what they like.
I'll very rarely recommend the type of breeding I like, as it's not suitable for most people. So I'll suggest something better for their lifestyle even though it's not what I would want.

It's also a reason why I go to shows and trials when I'm not competing, which some people think isn't worth their while as there's nothing 'in it for them'.
I can see the impact now, good or bad, of dogs I saw on the field 15 years ago, as well as how training and judging has evolved.

 

[DabDab]

The difficulty for most people though is where to find that information even if they are really interested. A lot of breed societies and their associated experts are unfortunately a bit of a closed shop and are not super helpful to potential new owners etc. You can probably find information easily enough on spaniels or labradors or maybe border collies, but a lot of breeds are very tricky for someone without prior connections to get info on.

 

[druid]

Genetics play a huge part. My working/show mix GSD (although both parents having working titles) is the most level, environmentally stable dog I've ever had. But I asked people in the breed to point me in the right direct and explained exactly what I needed from the dog (CorvusCorax was one of them!)

 

[CorvusCorax]

The difficulty for most people though is where to find that information even if they are really interested. A lot of breed societies and their associated experts are unfortunately a bit of a closed shop and are not super helpful to potential new owners etc. You can probably find information easily enough on spaniels or labradors or maybe border collies, but a lot of breeds are very tricky for someone without prior connections to get info on.

So I am quite lucky in that my breed has always been very well documented on paper and there are several very useful databases where you can watch videos and check health results going back decades, and over all branches of the family tree.

What I would say is that some people (not you!!) don't always go about approaching people for help in the right way. I do what I do voluntarily on top of a job and life etc and it takes time to research things and sometimes you will just get an email or a message out of the blue consisting of no please or thank you or capital letters or any punctuation to speak of (i lookin for a stud for my bitch...i want cheap german shepard that will protect my home, etc etc) and that's not considering the jokers, timewasters and those who suck you dry of information and then ignore it all anyway or just copy and paste it on to someone else to make themselves look smart I do have my own filter system now but I can see why some people just nope out because of previous bad experience, even if the person asking has good intent.

 

[blackcob]

Said it before on here but I was desperately proud of doing things with a Siberian husky that they weren't meant to be able to do and really wanted to attribute it to working hard and 'it's what you make of them'. And yes, a lot of hard work did go into that dog but ultimately - 15 years later, three more dogs of my own, experience from friends' dogs at club and now helping to train other people's dogs - I realise how bloody lucky I got with her. An unwise purchase, trained by a numpty, that has remained the most temperamentally stable dog I ever had. Complete accident and down to genetics.

I do vent on here occasionally about my youngest but I can't be surprised that the dog from generations of dogs who are exceptionally good at being hypervigilant, barking and biting things is, erm, inclined to be hypervigilant and bark and bite things. Although I maintain that the rest of the litter turned out a lot less spicy.

 

[blackcob]

See also: if your rescue dog has issues, it's unlikely to be because they were abused, and far more likely that they were born predisposed to being a knob or a bag of nerves.

 

[CorvusCorax]

See also: if your rescue dog has issues, it's unlikely to be because they were abused, and far more likely that they were born predisposed to being a knob or a bag of nerves.

Exactly.

 

[Clodagh]

See also: if your rescue dog has issues, it's unlikely to be because they were abused, and far more likely that they were born predisposed to being a knob or a bag of nerves.

Red had a terrible time but is brilliantly well bred.
She bounced back so quickly when rehomed. She was out on a big shoot picking up partridges five months from rescue.
She’s still nervous of people, especially men, but would do anything for me.

 

[DabDab]

So I am quite lucky in that my breed has always been very well documented on paper and there are several very useful databases where you can watch videos and check health results going back decades, and over all branches of the family tree.

What I would say is that some people (not you!!) don't always go about approaching people for help in the right way. I do what I do voluntarily on top of a job and life etc and it takes time to research things and sometimes you will just get an email or a message out of the blue consisting of no please or thank you or capital letters or any punctuation to speak of (i lookin for a stud for my bitch...i want cheap german shepard that will protect my home, etc etc) and that's not considering the jokers, timewasters and those who suck you dry of information and then ignore it all anyway or just copy and paste it on to someone else to make themselves look smart I do have my own filter system now but I can see why some people just nope out because of previous bad experience, even if the person asking has good intent.

Yep I totally get it....people can be a real pita. Just sort of saying that even when people want to do the right thing, it sometimes isn't especially straightforward. There's a lot of privilege
involved in dog knowledge - growing up with dogs around, managing to get in with a dog club of some description, happen to know a good dog trainer or someone with particular knowledge about the breed you're interested in etc etc.

 

[Moobli]

Most breeds have a good few breeders, judges, historians, geeks etc to ask lol. Always important to tell them what *I* like rather than ask them what they like.
I'll very rarely recommend the type of breeding I like, as it's not suitable for most people. So I'll suggest something better for their lifestyle even though it's not what I would want.

It's also a reason why I go to shows and trials when I'm not competing, which some people think isn't worth their while as there's nothing 'in it for them'.
I can see the impact now, good or bad, of dogs I saw on the field 15 years ago, as well as how training and judging has evolved.

You’re right, of course. I was thinking more along the lines of first time dog owner not knowing where to go and who to ask. And breeders being skilled, knowledgeable and astute enough to mix lines that consistently produce good temperament, as well as all the other considerations that go into breeding for different roles.

 

[Moobli]

Genetics play a huge part. My working/show mix GSD (although both parents having working titles) is the most level, environmentally stable dog I've ever had. But I asked people in the breed to point me in the right direct and explained exactly what I needed from the dog (CorvusCorax was one of them!)

And if I ever get another GSD puppy, and she’ll spare me the time, I’ll be asking CC to point me in the right direction. Nothing wrong with the GSDs I’ve had but want something a bit different next time. Yours sounds like the kind I would be after.

 

[druid]

And if I ever get another GSD puppy, and she’ll spare me the time, I’ll be asking CC to point me in the right direction. Nothing wrong with the GSDs I’ve had but want something a bit different next time. Yours sounds like the kind I would be after.

He's fantastic - couldn't have asked for a better dog to fit the job title

 

[DabDab]

You’re right, of course. I was thinking more along the lines of first time dog owner not knowing where to go and who to ask. And breeders being skilled, knowledgeable and astute enough to mix lines that consistently produce good temperament, as well as all the other considerations that go into breeding for different roles.

I'm on a few Kelpie breed specific pages and on the odd occasion someone asks about where to start in terms of a Kelpie for a pet home they tend to get a fairly even mix of "here's my pets4homes advert for my litter of puppies", "how dare you even consider a Kelpie for a pet home", and "try a rescue/get a failed worker". None of which is especially useful for someone trying to find the right type of dog for them.

I've known a couple of people who have fallen foul of the "get a failed worker" advice, because a failed worker can be anything from 'not that interested in stock/too lazy' (so potentially ideal temperament for a pet home), to 'gets so pumped with adrenaline when around stock that even an experienced handler can't control it' (not so much fun for the average owner).

 

[CorvusCorax]

Well as a rule I'm happy to chat about pedigrees all day to whoever will listen, and lots of people who don't want to

 

[blackcob]

CC PEDIGREE KLAXON

I would like to commission an essay, with references, on the historical and genetically determined reasons that my dog is a twat.

Regarding advice, I do agree it’s hard to get started and it can feel like a closed shop but the dog world is surprisingly small at times; I think if you put yourself out there and do the training or go to some shows you can make genuine connections and people will usually try to help you out. Random online enquiries not so much, as above. I say that as a person as terminally online as anyone, but sometimes it really does pay to go to the show, sit with a catalogue and get nattering.

 

[CorvusCorax]

CC PEDIGREE KLAXON

I would like to commission an essay, with references, on the historical and genetically determined reasons that my dog is a twat.

I'm going to blame the Czechs

 

[blackcob]

Damn Czechs. *shakes fist*

She is built like a racing snake though, exactly as requested, so they got some bits right.

 

[jovan46]

I agree that the basis is genetic, but as far as I understand, studies of dogs' behavior estimate the influence of environment in about a third of the total result. That is, a calm line gives an advantage, but without systemic contact with people and urban noise the risk of undesired reactions still remains. It seems that the optimal way is to first choose a line for the tasks and then plan an early, but metered socialization.

 

[I'm Dun]

CC PEDIGREE KLAXON

I would like to commission an essay, with references, on the historical and genetically determined reasons that my dog is a twat.

Regarding advice, I do agree it’s hard to get started and it can feel like a closed shop but the dog world is surprisingly small at times; I think if you put yourself out there and do the training or go to some shows you can make genuine connections and people will usually try to help you out. Random online enquiries not so much, as above. I say that as a person as terminally online as anyone, but sometimes it really does pay to go to the show, sit with a catalogue and get nattering.

I have found this to be fair. When it looked like Cooper wouldn't race it was obvious how disappointed I was and how much work I'd put in, and I got offered a well bred pup that wouldn't have hit the open market. But without Cooper I'm not sure how I'd have gotten involved, so a bit catch 22.

 

[gunnergundog]

Interestingly I had a conversation the other day with someone who for many years was the breed health coordinator for one of my breeds. We were despairing over some of the Ill matched pairings and the resultant posts on social media re epilepsy, fits, convulsions, nervous/dodgy temperaments/ out of control dogs etc amongst other things. So many breeders seem to own both the dog and bitch; are they really the best match if you are looking to improve the breed? I doubt it very much. Then you get the refrain ‘but I only want a pet, not a show dog or worker’. If you are breeding without health tests and a record in either the show or working field then in my opinion you are doing the breed a disservice. Dumbing down the genetics (eg hunting or guarding) in order to make the breed easier for the pet market who are not prepared to put in the time, money and effort to allow the dog to fulfill the job description for which it was bred is NOT improving the breed and should be prohibited by law …in my opinion.

 

[druid]

People are always horrified when they meet my ESS and I tell them they are s**t pets. They need a job and far too many pet owners think allowing them to run off around the local forest through the undergrowth out of eyesight is fine. No respect for ground nesting birds or other wildlife at all. The dog isn't engaged with the owner half the time who usually has sod all recall too.

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

Interestingly I had a conversation the other day with someone who for many years was the breed health coordinator for one of my breeds. We were despairing over some of the Ill matched pairings and the resultant posts on social media re epilepsy, fits, convulsions, nervous/dodgy temperaments/ out of control dogs etc amongst other things. So many breeders seem to own both the dog and bitch; are they really the best match if you are looking to improve the breed? I doubt it very much. Then you get the refrain ‘but I only want a pet, not a show dog or worker’. If you are breeding without health tests and a record in either the show or working field then in my opinion you are doing the breed a disservice. Dumbing down the genetics (eg hunting or guarding) in order to make the breed easier for the pet market who are not prepared to put in the time, money and effort to allow the dog to fulfill the job description for which it was bred is NOT improving the breed and should be prohibited by law …in my opinion.

Does my head in when people say 'I only want a pet' in terms of health tests etc

 

[CorvusCorax]

Surely being a pet is the most important job a dog can do. Everything else comes after that.

 

[blackcob]

I saw a dog being poked and teased by a child recently which has prompted this thought - is it fair to say that being purely a pet is a harder job, or harder to be good at, than that of many working or sports dogs? I'm thinking that for the latter a certain degree of management is often normal and they usually have much more defined roles, training and expectations. An average family dog probably has to tolerate a lot more inconsistency, poking and prodding and expectation and assumption that they will be social and flexible in nature. Really it's quite remarkable that most of them turn out to be good at it.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Interestingly I had a conversation the other day with someone who for many years was the breed health coordinator for one of my breeds. We were despairing over some of the Ill matched pairings and the resultant posts on social media re epilepsy, fits, convulsions, nervous/dodgy temperaments/ out of control dogs etc amongst other things. So many breeders seem to own both the dog and bitch; are they really the best match if you are looking to improve the breed? I doubt it very much. Then you get the refrain ‘but I only want a pet, not a show dog or worker’. If you are breeding without health tests and a record in either the show or working field then in my opinion you are doing the breed a disservice. Dumbing down the genetics (eg hunting or guarding) in order to make the breed easier for the pet market who are not prepared to put in the time, money and effort to allow the dog to fulfill the job description for which it was bred is NOT improving the breed and should be prohibited by law …in my opinion.

The amount of puppy purchasers who think seeing both parents is a good thing and something to look out for. I have explained many times that if someone hasn't taken the time to research the dog to use, and quite likely travelled 100s of miles to take the bitch, then they are more likely only in it for the money.
Of course there are exceptions, my current GSDs breeder owned both parents, but she had bought in the male from Germany specifically because he suited her bitch line so not really the same.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

Does my head in when people say 'I only want a pet' in terms of health tests etc

Yep, but they probably also want a pet that will live for more than three years, won't cost a fortune in vets bills, can get in and out of the car / on and off the sofa, etc...

Surely being a pet is the most important job a dog can do. Everything else comes after that.

I saw a dog being poked and teased by a child recently which has prompted this thought - is it fair to say that being purely a pet is a harder job, or harder to be good at, than that of many working or sports dogs? I'm thinking that for the latter a certain degree of management is often normal and they usually have much more defined roles, training and expectations. An average family dog probably has to tolerate a lot more inconsistency, poking and prodding and expectation and assumption that they will be social and flexible in nature. Really it's quite remarkable that most of them turn out to be good at it.

I think the "I only want a pet" is the dog equivalent to "I only want a happy hacker". On the surface, we don't want the dog or the horse to do anything amazing or "highly skilled" like detecting bombs or covering dozens of km a day, but when you break it right down, we're probably asking an awful lot more of them that is not necessarily "natural" to that species:
Dog has to spend time alone but not express frustration by destroying the house or disturbing the neighbours by barking. Dog then has to accept strangers (humans and sometimes dogs) into it's territory, go to unknown places and not get excited or explore too much. Go to busy noisy areas, be "friendly" to everyone and everything, not chase that very tempting cat/rabbit/deer, not eat the poo, not roll in the decomposing carcass of a long dead something, is supposed to pee outside, but not on that tree or that pot, but other trees and pots are ok...
Horse has to leave its friends and go off into the unknown and face large, noisy, mechanical predators; sneaky, silent, wheeled predators; strange animals (llamas, cows, emus...), barking dogs, kids with footballs or on trampolines, bird scarers and the occasional jogger in a T-rex costume

We ask a lot of our animals and they're amazing for putting up with us, the least we can do is acknowledge they have a hard job and try to set them up via breeding, environment and training to best cope with it.