Genuine Barefoot Q for the BF Taliban

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Bubbles

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Sooo, my 15.3 ISH (Connie with a bit of TB) has been barefoot since Oct. Shoes off after event season, rested until early Jan. He's been in light work since and his feet look lovely, no splits, cracks, good concavity, 100%comfortable on all terrains when his feet are conditioned on tarmac on a regular basis, otherwise a tiny bit footy on very stoney tracks until the hacking has been upped a little again.

BUT I've decided to put his shoes back on - on grass/farm tracks he is slipping and sliding everywhere with his hind feet, to the point that I have to choose where I'm going to trot. This has started as soon as the ground has started to dry out and firm up a little.

So my question is not about whether I should put shoes on, I'm going to, I wouldn't dare compete on grass like he is at the moment. My question is has anyone else suffered with this to the point that you've put shoes back on?

Thanks for reading :)
 
Are you just wanting to have shoes so you can have studs to compete? If so does that mean your preference is barefoot but you just don't want to event like that?
Sorry don't have an answer or experience just curious and bumping too
 
No, afraid I haven't had that problem. We completed two of our local hunter trial series slipping less than my pairs partners horse who had studs. Once in the rain and once in oct when ground was dry as a bone.

My question would be why is he slipping.... something doesn't add up.
 
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I've never had a barefoot horse that slipped more than before I took shoes off. Invariably they slip less - we've ridden on all sorts of terrain over the years, galloped, jumped - the lot.

Like Tallyho, I'd be wanting to try to work out why a horse was slipping, as my experience would be that it was not the normal pattern.
 
I keep my Tbs unshod behind and have never had and issues with them slipping, even hunting and xc on all sorts of going. I've recently brought one back from being turned out completely unshod and have every intention of keeping them off as he is coping brilliantly. Is it worth investigating if there are any other issues behind the slipping?
 
Thanks for your input :) Archie, no real preference tbh, shoes were off for a winter break and as his feet coped so well I've left him alone. But yes, I need to stud - I have xc'd bf behind before and he slipped round turns.
Horse has some cartilage damage to his stifles, it may well be that he's placing his hinds on the ground slightly differently and not getting the traction that he normally would. Especially when there is no cut in the ground.
I know some posters in comp riders have had to shoe to prevent slipping xc, I just wondered what the wider experience is.
 
Does this cause him pain? If it is to do with the cartilage then I can understand that he may struggle with flexing and extending the joint forward or back as the stability of the joint is reduced. I have had a pony with this problem before and she had trouble rotating from the hip-joint as it cause a lot of pain and held herself in a slightly cow-hocked position which makes it hard to walk straight, in turn this can affect the hock ligaments as they are pulled out of place and walking downhill can become a big issue.

I'm surprised you want to event this horse given the turning speeds required and forward impulsion needed for the jumps would place incredible strain on that joint.
 
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No, it doesn't, the joints and ligaments are stable and his working life very much has the approval of his vet. He moves straight and has no issues with hill work.
 
Bubbles said:
No, it doesn't, the joints and ligaments are stable and his working life very much has the approval of his vet. He moves straight and has no issues with hill work.
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Ok well, you know best. Slipping in trot for me would be a big neon sign saying something is not ok but since you have the vets word, you should carry on regardless :)
 
Back 7 years ago when I got my TB ex chaser I was told to put him down as he'd never come sound from his hock injury. He did come sound but I left him absolutely barefoot behind. My reason was if I was going to ride him and compete him then I wasn't putting shoes on because he would have needed studs. To me that meant more chance of injury. However silly that may sound.

He never did slip. Of course I never road him on hard ground. But what I did with him taught me that they can cope surprisingly well.

I'm not a barefoot person by any means but when people say they compete just fine without shoes I well believe it.

Anyway, useless advice I'm sure! I would second getting to the root of slipping.

Terri
 
I have no experience of the cartilage damage you are dealing with but I do think studs can cause more strain on limbs, ligaments and tendons due to a jarring effect when hooves are stopped in their tracks and the body momentum keeps going. Does the vet know about the studs?
 
My horses are unshod and I have never had a problem with slipping, in fact I think they slip less because they are unshod tbh.
 
Bubbles said:
My question is has anyone else suffered with this to the point that you've put shoes back on?
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Never. I evented five horses up to Novice BE. I hunt one now and have hunted two others.

I'm wondering if it is your anxiety that is stopping you carrying on rather than his need?

Some of my horses have, at times, slipped a foot six inches or maybe a little more, but it causes them, and me, no problems. The green ones do it more, and in time, with training, they find their balance and do it less.

Don't get me wrong, please. The most important thing in riding, in my opinion, is rider confidence. If you don't have confidence that he will stay on his feet without shoes on, then your lack of confidence will transmit to him and cause a spiral of problems. If you need him to have shoes to feel confident that he will stay upright, you should shoe, for both your sakes.

Of course all this depends on how competitive a rider is, as well. If I did have a horse who slipped on turns on a cross country course, I would slow him down and balance him up more for the turns, and take the time penalties, before I would shoe, especially on a horse with known cartilage damage.

There is a PhD thesis which was published in 2011, carried out by a farrier, which has come to the conclusion that studs, and probably shoes as well, cause excess strain on joints because they stop the horse slipping. It explains that the function of a foot slipping is to release the strain on the joints that would otherwise cause wear/damage.

I'm not sure what this thread will have achieved for you if your mind is already made up that you are going to shoe. I hope it helped but I suspect the PhD research will simply make you feel guilty :(
 
Many thanks cptrayes. Lots to think about. I'm going to talk to the various professionals that I use and gather their thoughts. When using studs all of last season I always used the smallest that I thought I needed, it has always been in my mind that I shouldn't be fixing his feet to the floor and potentially causing more damage. But you are spot on, I need to know that he will stay on his feet: and collecting time faults I'm very good at :)
Thanks all.
 
Hi there, from a human perspective, I have had problems with my knee, [meniscal tears,/ligaments,] I had plenty of time to sit at the PC and to think about the episodic injury [from crutches, to sound in a day, and vice versa]
I identified a major problem as the thick [and insensitive] climbing boots I used to wear for work [gardening], and now wear my Ariat Cobalts every day.
My proprioreceptors are getting feedback in time to react to the surface I am on.
Just a thought which might increase your confidence. If I were you I would give it a bit longer, to be honest I love the feeling of security on tarmac compared to the feeling of being on ice skates that I get with steel shoes. I don't feel any difference on grass.
 
Bubbles said:
Many thanks cptrayes. Lots to think about. I'm going to talk to the various professionals that I use and gather their thoughts. When using studs all of last season I always used the smallest that I thought I needed, it has always been in my mind that I shouldn't be fixing his feet to the floor and potentially causing more damage. But you are spot on, I need to know that he will stay on his feet: and collecting time faults I'm very good at :)
Thanks all.
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As an ex eventer I would say quite strongly that the sport is most dangerous when the rider is not committed to arriving at and clearing the fence. If you need shoes and studs for that, then your neck, I think, is at that point in time a little more important than his feet or legs :D

Here's the pointer to the research

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/310041.html




Miss L Toe said:
Hi there, from a human perspective, I have had problems with my knee, [meniscal tears,/ligaments,] I had plenty of time to sit at the PC and to think about the episodic injury [from crutches, to sound in a day, and vice versa]
I identified a major problem as the thick [and insensitive] climbing boots I used to wear for work [gardening], and now wear my Ariat Cobalts every day.
My proprioreceptors are getting feedback in time to react to the surface I am on.
Just a thought which might increase your confidence. If I were you I would give it a bit longer, to be honest I love the feeling of security on tarmac compared to the feeling of being on ice skates that I get with steel shoes. I don't feel any difference on grass.
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I have this too. I have a syndrome which means that I have no reflex in my Achilles tendons, so my ankles turn much more easily than other people. I have to be very careful how thick and how rigid the soles of my walking boots are, so that I can gain enough proprioception to avoid spraining my ankle. I would assume that the same would be true of a horse with any instability in its legs.

I live on hills and riding tarmac hills is now a joy where it used to be a nightmare of slipping and hesitation by the horses. I often canter up them :D
 
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cptrayes said:
As an ex eventer I would say quite strongly that the sport is most dangerous when the rider is not committed to arriving at and clearing the fence. If you need shoes and studs for that, then your neck, I think, is at that point in time a little more important than his feet or legs :D
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Thank you! It doesn't help that he can be a bit of a git on a bad day, and sliding into the base of a fence and turning turtle is not what I want to be worrying about :eek:

Thanks for your comment Miss L Toe, it may well be that I give this a few more weeks before shoeing again. Maybe I should try him in Ariats if they work for you ;) Gardening for a living with a dodgy knee must be a real pig...
 
Can I just say, Bubbles, that if everyone who asked questions of the Taliban was as open to discussing answers that may not have been what they wanted to hear as you have been, and as reasonable and non-incendiary in their responses as you have been, that we would have a lot of great discussions on this forum.

Good luck in your events this year, I'm too old for it now but I know the thrill :D
 
Bubbles said:
Sooo, my 15.3 ISH (Connie with a bit of TB) has been barefoot since Oct. Shoes off after event season, rested until early Jan. He's been in light work since and his feet look lovely, no splits, cracks, good concavity, 100%comfortable on all terrains when his feet are conditioned on tarmac on a regular basis, otherwise a tiny bit footy on very stoney tracks until the hacking has been upped a little again.
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There is a big difference in the feet of horses that work regularly on tarmac to those that work on grass. The grass foot will have more grip for that surface. If your horse is trimmed,talk to your trimmer/farrier,they may be able to help.:)
 
abitodd said:
There is a big difference in the feet of horses that work regularly on tarmac to those that work on grass. The grass foot will have more grip for that surface. If your horse is trimmed,talk to your trimmer/farrier,they may be able to help.:)
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I will do just that, thanks :) Hmm, he hasn't done much roadwork of late, I better start pounding that tarmac and then retest this...
 
Hi OP - I have rehabbed one that arrived barefoot but with terrible feet. The hinds were like polished glass and just as flat. Slipped on everything. Post rehab was fine. Needed diet and work adjusted. Re trimming and work. The hoof given the chance adapts to different surfaces. If you want a grippy foot on road and grass you need to do plenty of both. Also leave the bars well alone (in most cases) they provide a lot of traction on grass and in mud.
 
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