Genuine horse has become nappy rearing little git - Why

Sparklet

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I cant see why the horse would only suffer from pain on a hack out, probably wise to check it out but highly unlikely as you would expect similar behaviour during other riding work too.

Personally I dont think bribing with polos, getting off and hitting is the way forward. The second the horse starts to nap and sharp slap behind the leg to drive the horse forwards.....to be honest I would I would be happy to apply several sharp slaps if necessary.
 

natalia

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F*** the natural horsemanship and nice approach, he's being an arse and needs to be told before it becomes a problem.

DON'T get off if he starts threatening, its the WORST thing you can do he wins then. DON'T feed him polos if he's naughty- then he gets a treat every time he's bad!

Sit on him, use your stick, legs and voice and MAKE him go forwards. If he threatens to rear a firm slap, growl and a lot of leg to make him go forwards, if the tantrum is really really bad then turn him on a circle with your inside hand by your knee so he can't go up, spin him till he's fed up. Then YOU WIN. If your worried about doing this then employ someone to ride him who will and who is a stronger rider.

I get so angry with people whit nappy horses as every time its ALWAYS caused by bad riding and training. Yes horses are insecure on their own but this is where they should have full trust and leadership from you to tell them to go forwards. I would also agree that a session of long reining every week out and about won't do any harm, but ONLY if your experienced enough at it to drive him forwards if he has a tantrum. You have far more control on top.
 

sydney

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Sorry have not read the other replies so may well be same again- but couldn't advise enough getting a qualified saddle fitter to check your saddle and have his back checked, teeth etc before anything else so you really know what you're dealing with- ie cheekyness or in discomfort.

Good luck- keep us posted.
 

coen

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I completely agree that my response wasn't the best thing to do but at least we got round, as for the polos that also isn't a solution I just wanted to see what he would be like the next day and didn't want to bully him round as I was unsure of the cause. Insecure vs taking the piss.

I really don't think he is in anyway scared I do think he is saying no I want to go back to the field with my mates. Especially as he tried it on in the school and he certainly isn't insecure there he can see all the horses in there stables/ fields.
That being said he doesn't respond to force well and I don't want to make the issue worse so I will probably try the sitting it out and boring him around to my way of thinking before I get to the enough now smacks.
 

Sparklet

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I completely agree that my response wasn't the best thing to do but at least we got round, as for the polos that also isn't a solution I just wanted to see what he would be like the next day and didn't want to bully him round as I was unsure of the cause. Insecure vs taking the piss.

I really don't think he is in anyway scared I do think he is saying no I want to go back to the field with my mates. Especially as he tried it on in the school and he certainly isn't insecure there he can see all the horses in there stables/ fields.
That being said he doesn't respond to force well and I don't want to make the issue worse so I will probably try the sitting it out and boring him around to my way of thinking before I get to the enough now smacks.

Its not force its obedience and I havent found sitting it out works well because horse soon realises that disobedience leads to not having to work....but its your horse and if you have the time to sit about waiting for the horse to do what you want so be it.
 

coen

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I appreciate that the result wanted is obedience but I also realise that with some horses hitting them ect can escalate the problem by winding them up further. With this in mind I would rather try the softer approach first as I do not want him to associate hacking with a battle or being told off as he could then become a pro napper and always have the issue.

That being said I will not let him get away with this as that is equally likely to make the problem worse. It may well be that the understanding approach doesn't work in which case I will get a bit tougher but there is no harm in trying.
That's why this forum has been so helpful, it has given me various techniques to try.
 

Mike007

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The common denominator through your post ,is that every time he does somthing , you get off. IMHO ,and though you may not like it, he is taking you for a complete mug. You dont have to beat a horse to be firm, you just have to be consistant and not give up and get off.Even if it takes an hour to make him go forwrd,do it. getting off, and offering polos to bribe him, will ruin him.As for insecurity, since they get that from us,you need to have a hard look at yourself.
 

stencilface

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The common denominator through your post ,is that every time he does somthing , you get off. IMHO ,and though you may not like it, he is taking you for a complete mug. You dont have to beat a horse to be firm, you just have to be consistant and not give up and get off.Even if it takes an hour to make him go forwrd,do it. getting off, and offering polos to bribe him, will ruin him.As for insecurity, since they get that from us,you need to have a hard look at yourself.

I think thats it with many things really. My horse could have turned out to be a nightmare with someone who wasn't confident (I'm not saying I'm the only one that can ride him though!). I just sit and wait for him to want to go forwards - then I make him stand and go forwards when I want. If you make them stand still long enough, they will want to go forwards eventually. :)

Hitting a napping horse just doesn't work that well in many cases imho. But then I don't think hitting is a good answer for anything. Either the horse is in pain, doesn't understand, or you're not asking properly. Theres very few actual 'naughty' horses in this world :)

Theres a great link thats been on here a few times showing a man dealing with a napping/rearing horse on you tube. He explains and deals with it very well, but sorry can't remember the link!
 

coen

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Oh yes is that the hybrid horseman? Think I should check that out.

And Mike007 I certainly do not get off every time he does something, that day he started napping it was totally out of the blue and his rears were getting higher, every time I got off I got straight back on again as soon as I had him facing the direction I wanted I agree that this isn't a method I would continue. Also the second days bribing was done only so that I could try to distinguish if he was worried or simply taking the mick and I think it is mostly the latter. As for taking a hard look at my self I think every rider has to do that but I am not a nervous rider and had no reason to make the horse insecure considering we have previously never had a problem hacking.
 

ERB

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This sounds just like my mine! I got him in October and we've done really well until about 6 weeks ago when he started napping and generally being a little git (only when ridden, he's still a gent on the ground) he will run backwards, spin, hop about and threaten to rear - he's 17'3 so it really did un-nerve me. I did what you did and got off, led him past whatever he was spooking at and got on once we'd got past it, however, he pretty quickly learnt that if he messed about I would get off until it got to the point I couldn't get him out of the gate

Eventually I had to bite the bullet and just ride him through it. I put a flash on him as he was opening his mouth and with a lot of leg and a couple of firm smacks we finally got out on a ride, and despite all the threats he didn't actually rear at all although with all the tantrums it took 45 minutes to ride what would usually take 15! Have you got an instructor you can call? After getting to my wits end and thinking I'd taken on far too much a call to my instructor really did help - she gave me the confidence to be able to ride him through the tantrums.

Stick with it, it will get better. As tough as it is at the moment it'll be worth it in the end - that's what I keep telling myself anyway!
 

stencilface

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Oh yes is that the hybrid horseman? Think I should check that out.

Yep thats the one - I was thinking of this vid

http://www.youtube.com/user/endospink#p/u/2/VKkl8jbe0Ks

I did used to have a horribly nappy horse, who would just stand on his back legs all day long if you let him. I used to get off sometimes out of pure frustration at not being able to do anything. But mine always used to do things at comps - when I never had the time to deal with it (they won't just let you stay in after you've been eliminated - again!). My advice is just to persist, persist, persist - you do have more capacity for that than him, and once you've won one by not getting off, the others get easier imho :)
 

kirstyl

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Poor you!

My first horse which I broke in myself and was working really well suddenly decided she didn't fancy hacking anymore and planted herself. She wasn't in any discomfort and it was purely bolshiness . I did sit it out with her until she decided to go forwards - that could mean half an hour or more. I always carry a whip but it was only used to help keep her facing in the direction I wanted her to be going in. It seemed to last an age but it really was only a week or so of persistance and she was better, that said you can never sit back and relax!
A TB I had was excellent hacking when I got him (he was green but genuine) but he had never had to stand still b4. We have lots of gates so he had to stand. For a few wks we had all sorts of issues, running backwards, spinning, mini rears. I always made sure I had a reliable person with me who could help, give a lead to my horse if necessary and give moral support! He did initially try it on in school, napping by gate. Few good slaps and growling got rid of that pretty quickly, thank goodness!
Don't put yourself in a dangerous position. Hack out with sensible friends, that way you can ask your horse to lead or go behind but should you have problems with him spinning etc you always have some back up. To my mind, he can't be feeling too upset by the fact that you can get back on him again!
Good luck. Be consistent and firm - it won't last for ever!
 

coen

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God he is brilliant, where do you go to learn how to sit that out, my boy wouldn't stand a chance. :)
That was really useful as it shows you to just sit it out quietly and then ask them to go on. Well if it can be cracked in one day then next time I will be holding on for dear life. I noticed that he said horses who misbehave don't trust you to make decisions for them I think I will start looking into how you can convince them otherwise e.g. ground work ect.

Poor you It would be so disheartening to get to a show and it go wrong like that all the time. Did you manage to overcome it in the end?
 

stencilface

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God he is brilliant, where do you go to learn how to sit that out, my boy wouldn't stand a chance. :)
That was really useful as it shows you to just sit it out quietly and then ask them to go on. Well if it can be cracked in one day then next time I will be holding on for dear life. I noticed that he said horses who misbehave don't trust you to make decisions for them I think I will start looking into how you can convince them otherwise e.g. ground work ect.

Poor you It would be so disheartening to get to a show and it go wrong like that all the time. Did you manage to overcome it in the end?

Nope! Sold him to someone who said she wouldn't be showjumping him (as that was really only where he napped). I heard he ended up in a hunting home which he would have loved - given that he coudl just follow everyone then ;)

And yes it was disheartening - one time I had to withdraw as I couldn't get near the fence in the warm up, all I got was standing on two legs. I think a stronger rider would have cracked him, but I just wasn't up to it (was 16 at the time). But if I knew then what I know now, I maybe would have 'fixed' him, HHO is very useful! :)
 

coen

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Oh really well that is encouraging.
As for him letting me get back on - I was very lucky there thinking about it as when I got him I could only get on from a leg up as he would rear and run backwards otherwise. He got over it one night after work when nobody was there to help and I just had enough and threw myself on. I could always get on after that, although we have only recently cracked the mounting block (well half cracked).

Unfortunately the only chance I get to hack out is wk ends as it is too dark by the time I get to the yard but I will definitely keep at it over the wkend and hopefully have some progress to report... eek

It seems that consistency is the key. Bloody teenage horse.
 

coen

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When I got to the yard last night I decided to take a closer look at the fit of his saddle so I took off the saddle cloth and it does seem quite tight around his shoulders. I rode in the school without the saddle cloth and he behaved perfectly. I had another look after and by then it felt quite tight so I imagine with the sheepskin saddle cloth this could be really uncomfortable.
As this saddle was fitted to him in January I didn't imagine he would have changed much by now but it does seem he may need to go up a size. I now have the saddle fitter coming out monday with the physio and I will let you know if this improves the napping. Fingers crossed.
 

Apercrumbie

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I have had exactly the same problem so I feel your pain! It's a tricky one because it sounds like that what your horse is doing is getting to be dangerous, and it sounds just like mine when he started. I would advise never hacking without someone on the ground with you. It makes the world of difference to your confidence and immediately makes everything less dangerous. Take it back to basics. Just walk him out in hand for a while, then with you on him with someone leading you with a leadrope and take it from there. I know it's hard, but if you can avoid him rearing that would help hugely as you really don't want this to become a habit. However, I know from experience that often there is now way to keep their feet on the floor!
Good luck and keep us posted :)
 

Sparklet

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Hitting a napping horse just doesn't work that well in many cases imho. But then I don't think hitting is a good answer for anything. Either the horse is in pain, doesn't understand, or you're not asking properly. Theres very few actual 'naughty' horses in this world :)

I'd go so far as to say there are no 'naughty' horses, there are just horses who have inconsistent or frightened owners. Napping is a refusal to go forwards, its a decision the horse has made, its a decision the horse thinks he can make, one he feels will be sucessful in making.....basically its a situation the rider has created by not backing up the initial request if the horse elects to ignore it.

I dont like the idea of hitting anything to be honest but I understand that in 'horse world' if a subservient horse ignores a request by the dominant horse, the dominant horse will reinforce the request by charging, threatening to kick or by kicking. Horses work on that basis, its natural behavour for them.

In your case your horse has refused to move forwards and instead of immediately administering a repriment you have 'sat about', fed polos and dismounted an led him......none of which the horse will understand or relate to his refusal to go forwards.

Anyway its your horse....your issue.
 

JanetGeorge

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As for circles ect it was very tricky as the moment I put my leg on, tried to turn ect he would go up.

I think this is his teenage time but never had a horse this young before not sure what to expect. How long does it usually last :(
Any tips to establish yourself as the leader?

There are several possible explanations for this horse's change in behaviour.

1. He was backed 'hard and fast' by a strong professional rider who would stand NO nonsense! That sort of treatment lasts for a while in a new home, then horse decides to test the water to see if new rider is a pushover!

2. Pain issues - back - or more likely teeth. A 4 year old mouth is constantly changing (and not always for the better!)

3. An indecisive rider that the horse doesn't have full confidence in.

I back and sell a lot of home-bred youngsters and I would be MORTIFIED if one started behaving like that - even 9-12 months later! I would either be asking owner to send it back for some remedial work (at a BIG discount off my normal rate!)or I'd be getting myself down to the owner's yard to ride horse, assess the problem, and determine a 'fix'!

Rearingis a NASTY habit and once it becomes established, it can be very difficult to cure. I don't know how confident/experienced you are, but I suspect not quite enough to sort this quickly. Do you have a good local instructor/trainer who could help??
 

coen

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Ok so update - Yesterday I had the saddle fitter and physio out to make sure there was no physical reason for his sudden change in behaviour.
The saddle is fine he just changed the position of the girth strap so it didn't pull the front down as much, however the fitter did say that he was sore through his sacroiliac region & under saddle he was reluctant to bend to the right. The physio confirmed this but also said that this is the most common problem she comes across due to the movement in that area and that it is a maintenance thing really.
So whether this is the cause remains to be seen as I can't ride until Wednesday but somehow I doubt it.

Last week he was very well behaved we rode in the school several times and went out on a short hack with two others and he behaved perfectly. However during the saddle fitting he was a git spooking pinging around and then bunny hoping threatening to rear I told him off and he stopped it.

So it is now clear that the issue isn't hacking I think it is being away from other horses as last wk when we were schooling there was another horse being ridden in there every time. Some people have also suggested 'spring grass' may have got to him as I bought him in june this is our first spring together. Either way it needs stopping I have got myself a martingale will be borrowing some spurs and always riding with a whip to ensure he is going forwards.
I may am also arrange for a professional rider to come down and hack him out and see if this makes a difference.

As for the comment about it being my horse and my issue that is obvious but the point of this post is to gain knowledge and advice so that I can try to sort it. Judgemental sarcastic comments are not called for obviously it will be a process of trial & error to determine the cause and solution as I have never had this issue with a previous horse.

Also a lot of young horses do go through difficult stages, if they were that easy everyone would have one. Even my instructor who is a grand pre dressage rider had a problem with her horse whom she backed herself when it reached 6 by which point it was very strong and decided it wanted to be its own boss. So anyone else reading this & experiencing problems - every issue that happens is not entirely your fault, it happens to the best of them.
 

Sparklet

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As for the comment about it being my horse and my issue that is obvious but the point of this post is to gain knowledge and advice so that I can try to sort it. Judgemental sarcastic comments are not called for obviously it will be a process of trial & error to determine the cause and solution as I have never had this issue with a previous horse.
There was nothing judgemental or scarcastic about my post...its was merely advice you didnt want to take hence the 'your horse' comment, as in you will do as you will.
 
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