German school of thought (Dressage)

Vindicated

Vindicated

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I need someone to outline all the difference between modern dressage training as opposed to more classical methods. I know that the majority of his "modern" way of training has originated in Germany.

Thanks:)
 
Modern dressage is accused of encouraging a very round and low frame, with the horse worked behind the vertical. Some would consider modern dressage techniques to use the outside rein to encourage the horse to soften, raise its back, and put its weight on the hindquarters.
Classical dressage supposedly keeps the horse in-front or on the vertical and seeks to transfer weight to the horse's haunches using transitions through the seat aid.


I would suggest if this is something that really interests you, that you read 'Tug of War: Classical Versus “Modern” Dressage', by Dr.Gerd Heuschmann.
 
Vindicated said:
But not all of today's dressage riders employ these methods?
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The problem is the lexis used to define dressage
Classical could mean the early forms of dressage in which the horse was taught to prepare for the battlefield, learning to manipulate itself with the slightest aids from the rider. It can also be used to describe the high school dressage movement.
Modern likewise can be defined contrasting; as competitive dressage, using pirouettes and passage, but also as the practices of using Rollkur and hyperflexion.

What I drescribed in my post above was the difference between competitive dressage and 'modern' often Germanic dressage principles. These, as you rightly mention, are not used by all riders, many competitive dressage riders still use the more classic principles of dressage (e.g. on the vertical, using seat aids). Does that make any sense, because to be honest I need to sleep!
 
Silly question, why the German school of thought when it was pretty much the Dutch who are best known for starting the behind the verticle and horses head between its knees trend ;)
I am going to germany as soon as I can to have some lessons. A friend of mine is over there and goes to the Westfalen riding school where some of the horses are schooled up to advanced level in both dressage and jumping. She really enjoys the lessons because the horses are sent forwards into the contact and have to be straight and soft, and not pulled in behind the verticle.

I think there is a difference between Old classical dressage where some people were pretty barbaric to the horses that is often percieved to be nicer or kinder to the horses, and modern classical dressage where people are much kinder to the horse. Again there is a difference between the German school of thought which is good for the horse, and competition dressage where some (not all) riders use methods that are not always good for the horse.

I am going to see in reality what they teach, I think I will enjoy myself from the reports I have had back :)
 
crabbymare said:
Silly question, why the German school of thought when it was pretty much the Dutch who are best known for starting the behind the verticle and horses head between its knees trend ;)
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I think some people think of it as German because people may view Nicole Uphoff as the first rider to publicly be exposed using rollkur (although there is the argument that it was far less severe than certain other riders, so should it still be called rollkur), Of course there was the cruelty imposed by a certain German trainer when a horse wouldn't bend, which didn't do very much for German dressage's reputation.

I've been to Germany to view some world class riders, and didn't see anything I would class as cruel, or particularly different to the way we do things in the US
 
crabbymare said:
Silly question, why the German school of thought when it was pretty much the Dutch who are best known for starting the behind the verticle and horses head between its knees trend ;)
I am going to germany as soon as I can to have some lessons. A friend of mine is over there and goes to the Westfalen riding school where some of the horses are schooled up to advanced level in both dressage and jumping. She really enjoys the lessons because the horses are sent forwards into the contact and have to be straight and soft, and not pulled in behind the verticle.

I think there is a difference between Old classical dressage where some people were pretty barbaric to the horses that is often percieved to be nicer or kinder to the horses, and modern classical dressage where people are much kinder to the horse. Again there is a difference between the German school of thought which is good for the horse, and competition dressage where some (not all) riders use methods that are not always good for the horse.

I am going to see in reality what they teach, I think I will enjoy myself from the reports I have had back :)
Click to expand...

Another massive vote for the Westfalian Riding School :) me and OH went there in August and learned so much in a week. the horses were fab schoolmasters :) he corrected some bad habits acquired riding showcobs and my newly broken 3 yr old has come on leaps and bounds since we got back :)
FWIW the english speaking instructer was very anti the current fashion for the whole overbent/hang onto the mouth and kick type of riding whilst the rider leans back at a 45 degree angle..

you'll need google or similar translate as the english page is under construction:
http://www.wrfs.de/
 
Have a look at Gerd Heuschmann stuff - a really interesting principle is his back v leg mover interpretation - competetive dressage often places horses which have a very high leg movement in front but actually could be said to not be pushing through from behind, as you can see if you look at photos of horses in trot from the side - the angle of the front and hind opposing pairs should be identical, but you frequently see the forelegs far more horizontal than the hind. It's especially pronounced if you look at pics of passage. This is just an exmaple of how the difference manifests itself if you're trained in the 'modern' way rather than through 'classical' principles - in GH's opinion.

I went to a really interesting lecture recently by him where he was suggesting that the number of suspensory ligament injuries you see in dressage horses may arise from this problem, because the lack of rounding in the back from working truly through means that the only place they can 'spring' from is the fetlock, causing excessive strain. It was fascinating, do watch him if you can!
 
Morgan123 said:
Have a look at Gerd Heuschmann stuff - a really interesting principle is his back v leg mover interpretation - competetive dressage often places horses which have a very high leg movement in front but actually could be said to not be pushing through from behind, as you can see if you look at photos of horses in trot from the side - the angle of the front and hind opposing pairs should be identical, but you frequently see the forelegs far more horizontal than the hind. It's especially pronounced if you look at pics of passage. This is just an exmaple of how the difference manifests itself if you're trained in the 'modern' way rather than through 'classical' principles - in GH's opinion.

I went to a really interesting lecture recently by him where he was suggesting that the number of suspensory ligament injuries you see in dressage horses may arise from this problem, because the lack of rounding in the back from working truly through means that the only place they can 'spring' from is the fetlock, causing excessive strain. It was fascinating, do watch him if you can!
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With regard to suspensory ligament injuries, I couldn't agree more. In addition, I see lots of horses coming for dressage training nearby, which are clearly unfit, well turned out, but not fit. To train a horse in dressage I feel fitness is of the utmost importance, it is not a way of getting the horse fit, it has to be athletically fit to do it. The combination of a trainer in modern principles with unfit horses reall does leads to a high incidence of suspensory ligament injury.
 
Despite the title of his book GH identifies THREE methods of schooling and not just two, further adding to the confusion. His three are high and BTV with no impulsion from behind, a position which is mainly achieved using the hands, overbent and low with impulsion from behind (rollkur) and correct head carriage with impulsion from behind.

"Classical" is is also a very misleading term. Do we want to go as far back as classical as Xenophon and keep horses barefoot on pebbles? Or is classical Baucher's strong flexions? Or is it the scales of training and inside leg to outside hand?
 
Another suggestion....

Find a copy of the DVD 'Classical versus Classique'. It features Philippe Karl and Christoph Hess in discussion/debate plus some ridden work in both 'schools' (German and French).

I found it very interesting and it enabled me to make a firm decision in my own mind as to which side of the fence I fall on.
 
There is a difference between 'modern' and classical dressage:

Long, long ago, it was master horseman who trained horses to a high level. It took years - I think the Spanish Riding School still reckon on 8 years to train a horse (and the rest).

Then it was decided that horses were good to ride into battle. So instead of having years to learn to ride and develop the feel and finesse - the art of riding, they were given just 30 days.

So it was decided that the hand must not be used (hence the hand being the last aid we talk about, not the first). The legs would kick and the reins PULLED back would stop the horse.

These rules as written in the German Equestrian Federation handbook, are copied by most training organisations in Europe.

The rules miss out many steps of training and have been in some cases badly translated - this has given rise to the backward working hand, closed chest and contracted necks of many dressage horses.

Classical dressage on the hand is the slow, systematic training of the horse - opening up the front of the horse and allowing him to use his neck to create forward movement. The aids works with the horse, not against the horse and the horse is encouraged into self carriage.

Without writing an entire article here, I'll stop and wait questions . . .
 
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