German shepherds and sloping backs

I never get involved in the Gsd debates, I will just say, the hips dont lie:D:D come on, I had to say that:D:D If I had a quid for everytime someone has said to me, "his back is really straight that means he is very well bred":D the last lady that said that to me, her dog is now a cripple and she assumed he was well bred, as a rescue she saw bog all proof, apart from he looked nice:rolleyes::D, good job I took his knackers away, or she would have been breeding from it:p
My mam had slopey back (more so when they where placed that way):rolleyes: and they had no issues what so ever with hard work and never had an issues later in life and they where very active show/obedience dogs.
I dont think any off CC pics shows any ground hoggin either, they look pretty normal, even the one where CC her self looks like a spaz in the pic:D:D
Ok im jsut taking the P now *leaves thread*:p
 
Don't really want to go back over the whole Lagos at Crufts thing EK, but whilst you may not "buy" it I can assure you my dogs and many others have had problems with the carpet in the big ring at Cruft, . What breed do you have, because as I have already said it is the dogs with a lot of hind thrust who seem to find it hard to cope. Before anyone points out that agility is not held in the BIS ring, it used to be until a separate area was set up for it.
 
Thanks for all the info MM and CC!!

We are practically related then MM! :p I can't spot any Velindre/Gorsefield sadly, but I have Velindre Vanity Fair, Velindre King of the Castle, Velindre Brocade, Velindre Jaeger and Velindre Cass, if any of that rings any bells. You must come over and meet Dizzy and the rest of the gang!
 
EAST KENT said:
Sorry folks I just don`t buy the Cruft`s slippy carpet stuff..been on it many times,niether me nor my dogs have ever had the remotest problem with it.The original GSD way back looked almost like the modern working type Malinois,and for powerhouse speed and intelligence I`ll go with them ,thanks. I was gob smacked by Lagos in the big ring,instead of being capable of walking slowly when asked it had it`s back bent round and under it like a rabbit. Very very abnormal in a canine ,whatever breed it is.After all,that poor peke a few years back was "normal" to it`s breeders..which is a joke to the rest of us.Think it is all a bit like the Emperor`s new clothes.
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Each to their own EK but I think we've already gathered that our dogs are constructed and move differently, the way a hackney or a Tennessee walking horse moves differently from a TB or a Connemara. Different dogs for different jobs (waits for Gazey to come smack me round the head :p)
That dog would not have the qualifications he had, if he wasn't able to move properly.

As I mentioned, to me, the GSD isn't really a 'trot around in a triangle on a carpet in an exhibition centre' kinda dog. Which is probably why it is best we don't disturb the rest of you with our madness :p
Lagos was used to fast gaiting at the end of a long lead, outdoors on grass. He should have been better prepared.

As MM mentioned, as an agility competitor, her dogs, which have the normal, correct hind thrust, had problems with the Crufts carpet.

I'm not actually a big fan of Malis, I know a lot of people who have them, and any of the ones I know, you could not approach them and pat them like a GSD. Not one. A lot of that determination and focus they show in something like ring sport can be based on nerves and fear rather than confidence and control.
Re the early shepherd? The Rittmeister himself, while of course in praise of Horand vom Grafath, spent a long time perfecting the breed and dogs owned by Captain Riechelmann around 1880 were described as "more geese-herders than sheepdogs".

Don't get me wrong, I know there are problems, right at the very core and at the upper echelons of the breed, because of us humans, (and why the RSV is growing in popularity and has recently received FCI status!) and I hope this year at the Sieger, dogs like Javir Talka Marda, who is a fantastic working dog and has correct, non-extreme construction, as well as other dogs of his ilk that are out there, are right up there with the rest.
It will be a brave step to take but it needs to happen.
 
Fantastic photos!!!

Must be something about GSDs and snow!

Dizzysnowball1.jpg
 
There are problems in the breed CC and I am glad you do at least acknowledge this.The peke people are HAVING to listen to the Kennel Club;As I understand it the KC has a gripe with the GSD people over double handling and the way they are judged in a different way to other breeds?? Please can you explain?? My breeds are bull terriers and min bull terriers,I`ve bred these for forty years and it is a life`s work.
 
Not quite sure what you want CC to explain EK? The main issue some GSD folk have with the KC is that they continue to register dogs with high hip scores, or unscored, non standard colours etc, yet they turn round and bleat about dogs being fit for function. If you have been around dogs for over 40 years you will know GSDs have always been judged far more on movement than most other breeds, that is nothing new. The KC do also seem to have accepted double handling up to a point (and I do agree some folk go totally over the top), this isn't particularly new either, I remember being at the show when a german judge first told us to "call our dogs", think it was in the early 80s, the atmosphere at that show was amazing.:D
 
MurphysMinder said:
Bah you've shattered my illusion now, thought you'd been on exotic safaris. Not been to Chester zoo since my son was a toddler, must go again some time.
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Sorry to shatter the illusion :D My Kenya pics are real safari material but they are all on file and I hsaven't got round to scanning the negs ... good old film days .. nearly £200 getting the films developed :eek:
 
As MM, says, and I explained in a reply to the OP a while back, breed delegations have been going to the KC for decades asking for health tests (hips, haem, elbows) as a pre-requisite for registration and health tests and working qualifications to be taken account in the ring, so that the right type of dog is being promoted, but all the KC can come back with is 'stop double handling and address the issue of hocks' - neither of which can be described as a serious health issue, although the latter is of course undesirable.
Meanwhile the KC will register the offspring of dysplastics, epileptics, very close relatives. There is no excuse for very close inbreeding in a breed with the gene pool that we now have.

We judge a lot more to the international breed standard. Our dogs are asked to gait around the whole ring, on a long lead, at walk, trot and fast trot, not at heel and in a triangle. During the fast gaiting especially, people call their dogs, whistle, run around the outside of the ring to alert their dogs. It might not be everybody's cup of tea but it originated in Germany where a lot of the shows take place in football and athletics stadiums and the atmosphere is electric.

We also don't go 'over' the dogs like other breeds - teeth check, balls check for the males, temperament test (pat on the head, walking in on the dog suddenly, dropping or slapping the clipboard or in German-style shows, a gun test) which is why you see dogs thinking 'what the fook are you doing?' when allrounders poke and prod them :p

And of course the show stance is different. Obviously :p

The reason the obsession on the movement? It's an economical, long, low, ground-eating gait with immense forward reach and hindthrust. It isn't meant to be a race (although some judges fail to realise this....) it's meant to show that the dog can move like that, all day if need be.
You can stand and pose a dog all you like, and you can even 'hold it up' while it moves, I see a lot of other breeds being strung up on thin collars and leads, but if it falls to pieces when asked to gait on a loose lead and crosses behind like a pair of scissors, then the dog is not put together correctly.

We want to have offlead gaiting in the adult classes - the KC will not allow it. This DOES take place at heel.
We want to have health tests and working tests as a prerequisite for entering the top classes, the KC will not allow it.
This is why a lot of clubs are going their own way - and I am sure other breeds will not be sorry to see the back of the noisy buggers :p
 
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Well if you want to show and judge so differently to our own KC ways it is surely better to go separate entirely.So are things like head shape and dentition not important?And as the Germans are so manic about mouths in bull terriers in Germany..are they not so in their native breed ?I can assure you that the KCAB scheme WILL be tightening the noose on stuff like hip scores,slowly and softly ..but in the end catchee monkee.
 
Of course, I just said the teeth were checked :)

"teeth check, balls check for the males, temperament test (pat on the head, walking in on the dog suddenly, dropping or slapping the clipboard or in German-style shows, a gun test)"

I just said we don't do the whole putting hands all over the dog.
In fact missing teeth is regarded as a very serious fault. Dogs perfect in every other way can get dropped down the line quite rapidly - a missing tooth in one dog can lead to three or four a few generations along.

And you can tell the shape of a head by looking at it.

But I do agree, and it is good that we are now starting to form regions and host our own SV styles of show for those who want it.
 
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