Getting a backward thinking youngster thinking forward

[Twiglet]

Had posted this in NL but thought might get some more appropriate advice in here.

New horse is a very chilled chap, albeit isn't enormously confident yet. Understandable as he's still quite a babyish 5, and has new owner, new yard etc.

How did you deal with youngsters who aren't as forward as others? He's not nappy or anything sinister, he's just quite backward at going forwards - both hacking and schooling. Hacking in company he's pretty bold, and will go in front or behind, until it comes to fast work, when he'll refuse to go in front. Hacking alone it's a battle to keep him in canter....I've never had a horse I've had to push to go forward on a set of gallops!
In the school he takes a lot of work to get going forwards, and is very easily distracted - again a symptom of his greenness and lack of confidence. I suppose it's just a question of time, and waiting for him to feel comfortable and confident, it's just difficult to get him fit when fast work can be quite a battle. He's doing a mixture of hacking and schooling at the moment, and whilst our hacking is excellent, there is a LOT going on, and for him to look at....and look at he does!

Any suggestions?

 

[lex2501]

Hunting

 

[Twiglet]

Aha I knew someone would say that The thing is, he's not fit enough to hunt yet!

 

[ellie_e]

I'd be interested in the answers apart from hunting, he would kill me!!

 

[Twiglet]

Ah see he's the first horse I've had who I've thought I would be happy to take hunting - in fact I can't wait. He's an old head on young shoulders The annoying thing is, when he DOES go forward (when following other horses) he's got an amazing ground covering stride, and goes like a rocket!

 

[squiz22]

He sounds a bit like my youngster. I have found that it has come with time and fitness. I am not sure about yours but mine was very big and he took a long time to grow into himself and its taken a long time for him to build him his strength. The more I have done the more forward he has become. If anyone who knew him two years ago could see me hanging on for dear life going cross country now they'd think I was on a different horse!

 

[Twiglet]

Yes, he is pretty big (16.2hh but quite a chunky one....and probably has growing still to do). I do have a sneaking suspicion that once he realises just how fun it is, he's going to be a little more keen. Maybe it's better that he's not hunting till next season

 

[arizonahoney]

Just come out for a couple of hours...there are plenty of non-jumping meets...I think of it as extreme hacking

 

[Goldenstar]

Try a little more performance type food my TB who is six now was bit like you described when he came in August and I feed him a fair bit of competion mix for a while, for him you needed to knock it off a bit before a fun party as he was much brighter at a party.
He has now bulked up in his muscles and is doing more and getting less food he is much more forwards but is still basically a laid back chap.I think it was just a stage he went through he had done quite a lot for a five year old but was still growing and maturing and he needed more food for a while.

 

[Twiglet]

I'm very tempted! But I think I might spend the summer doing xc schooling with him, and then look at the newcomers meets in Sept/Oct.

 

[Goldenstar]

PS autumn hunting really did help as well.

 

[Twiglet]

Try a little more performance type food my TB who is six now was bit like you described when he came in August and I feed him a fair bit of competion mix for a while, for him you needed to knock it off a bit before a fun party as he was much brighter at a party.
He has now bulked up in his muscles and is doing more and getting less food he is much more forwards but is still basically a laid back chap.I think it was just a stage he went through he had done quite a lot for a five year old but was still growing and maturing and he needed more food for a while.

He's already on comp mix I just don't think he's the 'hot' type....which is what I wanted, albeit I just want him thinking a little bit more forward.

 

[MillionDollar]

I would go hunting too, sooner the better........just go for an hour or so if he's not terribly fit

 

[Twiglet]

It is on the agenda....I just want him to be a bit more balanced and fit before I let us both loose on unsuspecting horses and hounds

 

[LEC]

All your work in the school has to be about going forwards. You do not even worry about what is happening in the front end until they are really sharp off your leg and know what forwards means. This has to be doing everything. Two schooling whips can be hugely beneficial as you can be quick with them if they ignore the leg. I ask with my legs and if I get no reaction, then the schooling whips come into action.
I never worry about how much canter they do but that it happens and I am not having to ride every inch to get it. As they get stronger and older I expect more.
With stuffy horses they will get galloped round the arena until they learn that go means go. It takes discipline from you but after a couple of weeks you will have a horse who is light off the leg and that will make all the difference in the long term.

 

[Twiglet]

It takes a fitness from me too Having had a few months off horses before getting him, I didn't realise quite how much fitter I needed to be to get a lazy youngster going forward!

 

[Polotash]

Lunging will really help his fitness. Long reining him would help yours too ;0)

Keep schooling fun too - short sessions, lots of transitions, and throw in the odd jump and bit of pole work to keep his interest.

Hate to say I've had a couple of more backward thinking ones and they havn't sparked up as they've got older... (esp not the ID crosses who I find hard work!).

 

[Twiglet]

Now's probably the time to point out he's an IDx....

 

[Goldenstar]

Well my Irish draught does not do schools

 

[Arkmiido]

My ISH doesn't do schooling either. In fact, it's a struggle to get trot for more than a few strides. I have partly given up and agreed to only do hacking /xc schooling / jumping with her, as she gives me vile looks if I make her go in the 'sand pit' and I think life is too short to bully her into things she clearly sees as pointless, and she's never going to be a dressage pony anyway. I'd rather do that with my other one who actually likes learning sideways stuff.
I haven't hunted her (she'd probably trip over and isn't really trustworthy at speed going down hills). She also likes to stop dead in trot to investigate yummy grass, (it would help if i told her off rather than wet myself laughing). However, she does like her jumping, and is much more forward doing that. Some horses are just more chilled generally, especially the irish lot.
How about a small plastic bag tied to the end of a schooling whip? Helpful friend encouraging from behind with a lunge whip? Plastic bottle with pebbles in to back up your leg aids?? Is he just as laid back when lunged or long-lined? _maybe that's where you could start to change the overall attitude to work, and build muscle and fitness in the process.

 

[siennamum]

My 5 y o youngster is also stuffy. He has hacked for 2 years and is a super hack. He really enjoys schooling and will nap towards the school (bizzarely) but gets very slow and stuffy in the school. If it is of help, this is my experience.

My tenet has been forwards forwards and more forwards regardless of head carriage etc. BUT I am now changing my approach. He is so immature still and naturally very active through his body so he finds schooling hard work, rushing him makes it even harder for him. My natural rythym is faster than his, and I have been told I have to slow everything down and let him find his own speed. It's interesting as it is contrary to my instinct but it really works with him and he gets really elevated paces if I let him slow down.

I would still like him to take me forwards more and so alongside my slow is the new forward approach I am:
- starting him on pink powder because he is so immature I think he needs all the help he can get.
- going on some fun rides and doing pairs hunter trials with him
- getting him fitter generally & pushing him even when he is tired to ensure he's not pulling the wool over my eyes
- thanking my lucky stars I have such a laid back chap, my friends sharp whizzy youngster keeps decking him & I for one wouldn't swap!!

 

[irishdraft]

I have a 17.2 purebred ID 4 year old, rising 5 this year, when i started schooling him about 3 months ago, 20 mins a couple of times a week, i could hardly trot round the school with out collapsing with exhaustion. now he trots round, canters both reins and then trots on the other rein, so much more forward its incredible. Out hacking hes forward in walk and trot but then dies in the canter just cannot keep it up so i put it down to young horse not strong enough yet, so its a case of just keep working at it, it will come eventually also young horses are very easily distracted it all comes with maturity. Hunting is a good idea as long as you are confident you can control him, dosent matter if he is not fit you actually dont want him to be just be sensible with how much you do.

 

[Passage...]

Agree with those who have said don't worry about the front end in the school just focus on getting him forwards and in front of the leg. do you have a trainer who can help? Also IDs are not always backwards thinking, mine is one of the sharpest most intelligent horses I have ever known (isn't always a good thing! Lol) what are his lines? Xx

 

[Miss L Toe]

I wonder. I have a "backwards thinking" horse, he will whip round and go back home if he gets half a chance, has been like this from first backed, he used to hack out on his own on a roll "marching with ears on full forward alert", then I would be jet propelled when he saw a Tiger in the distance.
he is a pain [but I love him] and naps quite a lot if not turned out most days and ridden regularly, this seems to get no better as he gets fitter. Will "switch off " when being schooled, so one needs to keep him on the leg all the time.
I have come to the conclusion it his nature, and I will have to live with it, when he is turned out and in full work he is fine.

 

[cyberhorse]

When you say he is backwards thinking I assume you mean he evades and drops behind the tack so you can't ride him between hand and leg? I was interested in the fact he seemed to be worse with faster work. Try long reining and see if he works with a good strong contact.

We have a 5yr old 17.1 ISH who we bought for my husband and he is backwards thinking. When went back a few stages to long reining to fix some of his ground work we found he has been lunged/long reined to have no contact and be behind the tack. It is really no wonder he is stuffy and won't take a contact in canter due to the way he was broken. Most horses with this problem are at their worst in canter as the person who broke them got them to canter on the long reins by dropping the contact and sending them forwards rather than "supporting" into the canter. When you move to ridden work they drop behind the tack in canter and when you try to get them between hand and leg it is just not happening. He is already improving under saddle noticeably after 2 weeks of long reining and we have also changed his snaffle for a NS salex lozenge which seems to encourage him to take a contact and take you forwards.

Concentrate on lots of work getting him in front of your leg and less on anything else at the moment, you need to get him to understand that you want him forwards into your hands and that is good.

 

[ecrozier]

I think it's probably important to differentiate between 'forwards forwards forwards' and rushing? I know with my young horse I was advised to make sure he knew from a very early stage that go means go, but that doesn't mean we have to rush? I had def fallen into the trap of rushing him along a few months ago and my dressage instructor quickly stopped that - shouts of SLOW DOWN echoed across the yard! I was mistaking speed for impulsion and pushing him into the rhythm I need with my smaller horse. He's actually much better at a slower rhythm with plenty of connection between leg and hand to get him working over his back and using hindleg.
However if I ask, I expect him to respond, and have also been known to carry two schooling whips
Also echo those above re cantering out in company, initially following, then maybe side by side, then in front, then alone? And pairs HT and sponsored rides etc will help definately!

 

[Polotash]

Now's probably the time to point out he's an IDx....

Lol, sorry about that, it does seem to be a trait in the few I've had in to school, or have been with me at livery.

And yes, I know they aren't ALL like that, a friend has a fantastic show jumper who is pure ID, I'm just saying it's been a trait in the ones I've come across (rolling eyes).

 

[Goldenstar]

Just a thought but how about increasing the numbers of days when you don't ride him to see if that helps.

 

[Passage...]

Polotash I hope the sarcasm wasn't aimed at me? Ecriozer this is true, when sending him forwards ensure he isn't being pushed way out of his natural rhythm xx

 

[ecrozier]

Yes exactly polotash - sometimes I think confusion can occur when thinking about creating forwards momentum/getting a young horse to 'think forwards'. To me it now means sharp reactions and responsiveness rather than actual forward momentum!