Getting a referral for Rockley Farm from vet

Michen

Michen

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I promise one day I will stop with the daily posts asking for advice ;)

Right...Providing the MRI for my horse on Friday doesn't show anything that's beyond hope or repair, I want my horse to go to Rockley. He's insured, with petplan (not sure whether they pay out for stuff like this) but to be honest, I'd happily pay the full cost if it was going to give him the best possible chance.

Trouble is my vet is not keen at all. All she's seen of Rockley is a video of a horse in shoes when it arrived, on a hard tight circle which was clearly very lame. The "finished" video was then the horse, without shoes, on a large circle on a surface, clearly very sound! So sadly she's now sceptical.

Where he is going for his MRI, work up etc is also his direct vet practice, they are a large practice. So, if she refuses to refer- what are my options? Can I insist it is reviewed by other vets at the practice? Or send his details to another practice? What would the insurance companies view on this be, I'm guessing I can't just send my horses details repeatedly until a vet gives him a referral....
 
You're totally within your rights to get a different vet, or demand a referral. You're the customer at the end of the day and the vet is providing a service.
 
Ronalda said:
Ask Nic.
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This

It won't be the first time though many vets have agreed once they've spoken to her. You do have to call your vet and tell them you have given your permission to discuss your horses case.

At the very least she may be able to point you in the direction of vets in your area that have referred horses.
 
criso said:
This

It won't be the first time though many vets have agreed once they've spoken to her. You do have to call your vet and tell them you have given your permission to discuss your horses case.

At the very least she may be able to point you in the direction of vets in your area that have referred horses.
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******... just found out that a) Rockley is more expensive than I thought and there is no way I'd be able to afford it myself and b) Petplan don't cover Rockley.... urgh
 
TBH I would just change to vet who will.
I would never tolerate working with a vet who thought it was their job to oppose my wishes in such a way.
When I want a horse referred somewhere my vets would just do it .
However I do think you could do the BF thing your self if you need to .

I would speak to Nic , and or find the trimmers working in your area they will know the most BF friendly vets .
Or let me know where you live and I will ask my trimmer who to speak to in your area.
Or Pop onto the Phoenix forum and ask for trimmers your area .
Just go round difficult people, it's your horse , your insurance and your wishes that count .

EDT Cross posted sorry .
Your horse is young you can get him BF yourself it will take lots of time and effort and perhaps some cost in the form of boots and decent supplements .
 
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Goldenstar said:
TBH I would just change to vet who will.
I would never tolerate working with a vet who thought it was their job to oppose my wishes in such a way.
When I want a horse referred somewhere my vets would just do it .
However I do think you could do the BF thing your self if you need to .

I would speak to Nic , and or find the trimmers working in your area they will know the most BF friendly vets .
Or let me know where you live and I will ask my trimmer who to speak to in your area.
Or Pop onto the Phoenix forum and ask for trimmers your area .
Just go round difficult people, it's your horse , your insurance and your wishes that count .
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I think that might be the way I have to go, apparently petplan don't cover Rockley and its more expensive than I thought. His shoes are being removed for the MRI anyway so great chance to bite the bullet.
 
I have a mare that has Navicular and by the time I had found Rockley all the insurance money had gone. I have done the rehab myself. I first found a good BF trimmer and followed her advice about boots and how to do the transition. I changed her diet etc and started the walks first on the road and then up into our woods where we have different surfaces.

My mare is only used to do general hacking (To keep her mind active). Bit that bullet and go for it. There are plenty of people on here with a lot of experience that will be able to help you.

As for boots (Which I would always have around) I would go to Cannock Chase http://www.cannockchaseequine.co.uk/ They were so helpful when I wanted to get my boots.
 
Finding a good trimmer who will advise you and support you and teach you is important .
Also buy the feet first book ( I found mine on eBay ) it's quite old now ( ignore the seaweed bit we know now it's a bad idea to feed it ) bit it give you a good overview of what your trying to achieve .
Make sure hes got a good supporting bed in his stable so he can rest comfortably .
Then gradually every day get him moving in hand over different surfaces .
I did three very very short walks daily plus turn out and then built up gradually .
The walks where literally just round the garden and stable yard at first .
You will need boots and pads get advice you need the best ones for him .
You need to put aside eighteen months it might be less but get your brain round that .
 
Goldenstar said:
Finding a good trimmer who will advise you and support you and teach you is important .
Also buy the feet first book ( I found mine on eBay ) it's quite old now ( ignore the seaweed bit we know now it's a bad idea to feed it ) bit it give you a good overview of what your trying to achieve .
Make sure hes got a good supporting bed in his stable so he can rest comfortably .
Then gradually every day get him moving in hand over different surfaces .
I did three very very short walks daily plus turn out and then built up gradually .
The walks where literally just round the garden and stable yard at first .
You will need boots and pads get advice you need the best ones for him .
You need to put aside eighteen months it might be less but get your brain round that .
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I'm assuming though that he will be ok to be ridden, booted, fairly quickly? Eeek- 18 months is a long time for a lawn mower!
 
Michen said:
I'm assuming though that he will be ok to be ridden, booted, fairly quickly? Eeek- 18 months is a long time for a lawn mower!
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Maybe, maybe not. I had two who barely noticed their shoes off, one who was crippled as the farrier insisted in trimming him and took his feet to short and one, with soft tissue damage, who took probably 8 weeks to be comfortable. Movement is key, you will need, in the boots initially, to get him moving, he wont be a lawn mower just a horse that will need walked a lot, possibly in hand, initially. Hopefully you can sort out his gut issues as that will definitely affect his feet.

Have you found a trimmer who can help?
 
having read some of your earlier threads then it takes as long as it takes. Movement is the key and there will be a lot of walking in hand to start with. That is what horses do at Rockley. They walk themselves sound on suitable surfaces. OK they have a suitable diet and someone takes the worry out of looking after them but in the end it is the horses that cure themselves. They walk!! You don't have to send a horse to Rockley to rehab. You can do it at home. If you cannot replicate the facilities, and I am sure you won't be able to, then you walk the horse in hand.
Don't forget that if you send a horse to Rockley it does not come home in 12 weeks, cured and conditioned as a barefoot riding horse. All that has been done is to kick start the process with good facilities. You will be left to do the rest. You won't be able to just turn it out in the field and everything will be OK. It will need the correct diet and the correct exercise to continue what Rockley has begun. It will also need adherence to Rockley's trimming (or not trimming) instructions.

So at some stage you will end up rehabing your barefoot horse be it from either newly deshod to 12 weeks in.

Barefoot horses are generally not good lawnmowers. I don't like mine mowing the field I prefer them, for the 6 months when the weather is drier, to be walking around on an electric fenced track taking some exercise. That also means walking their feet. As we are now coming into spring can you set up a track for your horse?

Whereabouts are you geographically? I am sure someone on here or Phoenix can suggest a vet experienced in BF rehabbing and a farrier or trimmer who can work alongside the vet.
 
I don't know why Petplan wont pay for rehab when there is a vet referral. In my opinion its not their prerogative to make veterinary decisions on any horse unless they consider there is a fraud being committed. They target vet practices for pets, and probably horses., no doubt they have it in the smallprint.

You will have to accept it and make a plan, its going to involve work, your work and your commitment.

Ideally you want place where the grass is old pasture, and where have plenty of turnout on dry ground, where you can walk in hand on tarmac and hack on tarmac.
I would stable part of the day [large stable, deep bed at first. This allows you to feed a high fibre lo sugar forage, you may be able to buy some good to poor meadow fescue/timothy hay, not dusty or mouldy. Even soaking for an hour will remove sugars, you will see the colour of the water.

Rather than relying on trimming to sort the feet, you need to rely on your rehabilitation.
This is emphasised time and time again on Rockley site.

The whole feet business is complex, you need to educate yourself, the info is all available.
Follow the horses as they come in to Rockley, see how they progress, watch the videos, look at your horse and at the other horses as they walk out. Heel first landing, not toe first. Develop good frog and heels, a resiliant digital cushion, sole thickness and concavity all things you need to work on.

Q. how hard is it to walk out for 30 mins twice a day ...............
A. it's not hard at all.

Diet: sugars are out, processed foods are out, fibre is in, minerals are in.
Some salt and some micronised linseed.
 
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Michen... I'm not all that far from you. If you want to come meet my 3 barefoot TB's and see how we cope on a 'traditional' yard you would be more than welcome.
 
Talk very very quickly and do not allow your vet to get a word in until you have said all you wish to say. Alternatively if you can't talk that fast then tell them you want a reasonable conversation and you understand their scepticism and very carefully lay out all the reasons you want to do this and why you want it to be done now (and yes, "I want money from the insurance IS a valid reason!), If your vet really won't support you in this then you could ask around to find a vet in the area who will give a second opinion that would be more open to such things. Petplan have paid in the past for such things but you may need to involve the ombudsman as I know others have had to. Can't give you much other advice as my vet didn't take much convincing and totally understood my reasons. She did warn me not to pin all my hopes on it working (yeah didn't really follow that advice exactly lol) but that she saw no harm at all in trying and that she'd sign whatever she needed to sign to convince the insurance that it was being used as a treatment. I was pleasantly surprised not to be certified as insane for proposing the idea
 
Just seen latest reply... I'd be tempted to speak to someone at Petplan before you write the idea off entirely as unless they've had a total policy change I believe that they have been persuaded to pay in the past... it can just take a lot of fighting to get them to do so. Interesting really as they're really really good for small animal insurance and I'd never have a cat or dog insured with anyone else (Horse is with NFU as I believe the good service I have always always received from them justifies the price)
 
I am sure Nic has an information sheet that she sends out to vets, but either way, if you decide to challenge Petplan now you have this new information, for the sake of the horse you should still be gearing up for the barefoot re hab.
I am sure you will continue to get plenty of support from people on here.
 
Sorry I've been a bit quiet all, feeling pretty crappy about him going in to the vets tomorrow and just have a feeling they are going to find a hell of a lot. Also he's suddenly gone lamer again the last 24 hours, not sure why as he did come sound (except for on a hard small circle) in the shoes. Hot feet, sad pony, urgh. Wondering if possibly some thrush has taken hold under the gel pads.

Anyway yes, providing he does come home, I'm pretty sure those shoes won't be going back on after the MRI. It will be, quite frankly terrifying, taking a massive step away from what vet and farrier think I should do. I also feel bad as my farrier has been a total angel since he took Torres on, literally could not have been more interested and helpful and he's so full of ideas if x shoes don't work etc etc.

I will try with petplan but I posted on the barefoot facebook group and the answer was pretty much no, no one has managed to get them to pay out. Also to be honest, if I can do it myself (which everyone on here seems to think I can!) I'd rather he stayed with me. He's so settled and happy here and I don't like the thought of carting him 4 hours to Devon when he's not even been here long.
 
Its a shame that you can't do it on insurance, as far as the vet goes I would just tell them that you want a referral, your the client so you should get one if you want it. But, if Rockley isn't an option I totally agree that you can do it yourself. My horse had a catastrophic injury that resulted in a fractured pedal bone, and some months later once the bone had healed and her lameness had not improved she had an MRI and she had also torn a collateral ligament quite badly.

At this time she had been 3/5 lame for 6 months with pretty much no improvement dispute being on box rest. At the time there was only one MRI in Australia and we had traveled some distance to see a vet who is one of the best lameness vets in the country. He said she was basically screwed and had very little chance of improving.

I decided to pul shoes and go barefoot, I found one trimmer that said her feet didn't look good and were out of balance (all the other farriers were saying her feet looked great) so I started using him and walking her. She has gradually improved since going barefoot and is going really well now.
 
Boulty said:
Just seen latest reply... I'd be tempted to speak to someone at Petplan before you write the idea off entirely as unless they've had a total policy change I believe that they have been persuaded to pay in the past... it can just take a lot of fighting to get them to do so. Interesting really as they're really really good for small animal insurance and I'd never have a cat or dog insured with anyone else (Horse is with NFU as I believe the good service I have always always received from them justifies the price)
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To be honest I can't fault them so far, they paid out for his ulcers and feet the very afternoon they got the claim. Plus they paid out for an infection from an over reach boot rub that he got in the first week of being insured, which they really really didn't have to and could have easily said it was illness not injury as technically incurred by me!
 
Scarlett said:
Michen... I'm not all that far from you. If you want to come meet my 3 barefoot TB's and see how we cope on a 'traditional' yard you would be more than welcome.
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Oooh yes I might just do that, I'm in Highclere how far from there are you?
 
Scarlett said:
Maybe, maybe not. I had two who barely noticed their shoes off, one who was crippled as the farrier insisted in trimming him and took his feet to short and one, with soft tissue damage, who took probably 8 weeks to be comfortable. Movement is key, you will need, in the boots initially, to get him moving, he wont be a lawn mower just a horse that will need walked a lot, possibly in hand, initially. Hopefully you can sort out his gut issues as that will definitely affect his feet.

Have you found a trimmer who can help?
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Yep one that Andalucian trained with funnily enough. Though depending on my farriers reaction, I am considering keeping him involved to begin with. Gut issues seem to be fairly under control, judging by the fact he's now almost a porker!!
 
Again why get in touch with Rockley and ask about the insurance companies. Several people went to the Ombudsman with different companies (inc NFU who lost but I think were going to challenge the ruling). They will know who they have had payments from and makes more sense than random people on a forum. Having said that I have a feeling that petplan didn't pay out.

It does annoy me a bit that insurance companies will pay for the type of rehab livery that is just glorified full livery for people who don't have facilities for box resting but quibble at Rockley, it feels like they are making a point.

The MRI will probably show all sorts of damage to various soft structures in the foot which would have a poor prognosis. However keep in the back of your mind there are lots of horses that have been through Rockley with damage to DDFT, collateral ligaments, DSIL and navicular bursa who are back in full work.
 
So Frank was with petplan, they said they would have covered barefoot rehab as part of treatment but this was while they were insisting that he would have to be seen regularly by a farrier to be insured :rolleyes3: I wasn't sure how they would know :p.

Fwiw we never actually managed to arrange it but my farrier was quite interested in what the trimmer was doing so was going to try come while she was here at some point as trimmer was happy with that.
 
Michen said:
I'm assuming though that he will be ok to be ridden, booted, fairly quickly? Eeek- 18 months is a long time for a lawn mower!
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He won't be being a lawn mower .
You will be working with him daily leading him in hand , long reining him perhaps leading from another horse if that is possible .
Mine was training in the school within three months, walking short hacks on the road at four months .
At eighteen months he was jumping at clinics hacking out happily doing intensive flat work training .
Your horses feet are sick there's no easy quick cure .

Mine could not walk out the stable when we started .
 
And what you don't to do is use boots to work him more than he is ready to. If the MRI shows tendon and ligament damage in the foot then these need gentle work not anything that will strain them further.

Frankie was at Rockley about 4 1/2 months. He had horrific 'tb' feet so needed a bit longer than some. It was about a month before I visited there (work commitments) and rode him, up to then he had been exercised led from another horse.

When I got him back he was still a work in progress but I could hack him out a reasonable amount and as long as I let him take his time over stony paths could go anywhere. I schooled once or twice a week and after a couple of months introduced a little jumping. He was doing his first competitions (dressage and jumping) probably just over 12 months after the shoes came off. However I consider the months at Rockley a fast track. You can do it at home but I think without that perfect environment for turnout, it takes longer.

A few years later he developed a shoulder problem so had to be retired but never had a problem with his feet again.
 
criso said:
And what you don't to do is use boots to work him more than he is ready to. If the MRI shows tendon and ligament damage in the foot then these need gentle work not anything that will strain them further.

Frankie was at Rockley about 4 1/2 months. He had horrific 'tb' feet so needed a bit longer than some. It was about a month before I visited there (work commitments) and rode him, up to then he had been exercised led from another horse.

When I got him back he was still a work in progress but I could hack him out a reasonable amount and as long as I let him take his time over stony paths could go anywhere. I schooled once or twice a week and after a couple of months introduced a little jumping. He was doing his first competitions (dressage and jumping) probably just over 12 months after the shoes came off. However I consider the months at Rockley a fast track. You can do it at home but I think without that perfect environment for turnout, it takes longer.

A few years later he developed a shoulder problem so had to be retired but never had a problem with his feet again.
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This is what I'm so confused about. I won't know what to think if the vet says damage x y z etc, I can't understand how this sort of damage doesn't need to be rested? Lots to learn!
 
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