getting an outline, bits?? pony refusing any contact on reins

han4

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My pony is 5, and has had a full cheek french link in for the past year, she now refuses any contact through the reins, refusing to go into a nice outline. I have had a few instructors and they have all taught me the same thing, hard to explain through computer, to explain it simply, just squeezing my hands softly (not hard or see-sawing on her mouth), and when she brings it down, i relax my hands as a reward.

for around a month or two in summer she was in a perfect outline (not very constant but good enough for her age) and now refuses any contact through the reins, completely ignoring anything other than steering or stop.

She has no reason to not come into an outline (saddle check,back check and teeth done, not my riding as have had numerous people get on her and try, with no success), that is why i'm now questioning her bit.

Was thinking hanging cheek? or any suggestions? :confused:
 
Hiya,

I have a five year old, and have tried many bits - but I accept that he is quite young still to stay on the bit for too long.We now ride in a french link hanging cheek, a gentle copper roller, and, to throw this in, bitless.

We went bitless whenever he was teething, and it is worth considering this (wolf teeth ?) - any bit will be uncomfortable.

Tbh, there are so many suggestions, i would try and get your instructor to advise you (maybe even lend you bits ?), and maybe buy some secondhand from ebay. :)
 
Not that i am advocating this but this (for amusements sake) was how i was taught. After many frustrating weeks trying to train me for BHS exams and me totally failing to get anything on the bit my instructor said "i am going to turn around and count to 10 I don't care what you do while I am not looking but when I look back you are going to have that horse on the bit." of course i did something pretty ugly and clumsy. but it was the beginning of my understanding as I refined my technique over the years!
 
You don't mention first using your legs to create energy, that is then contained by a quiet contact with her mouth.

Yes to this. A soft contact on the bit comes from working properly from behind and doesn't have much to do with the use of you hands or a different bit.
 
I always got taught to ride the horse up into the bridle before then asking with the hands as you can get a horse into a outline by using your hand but this does not mean the horse is working correctly. A lot of bending and circles can help.
 
Yes to this. A soft contact on the bit comes from working properly from behind and doesn't have much to do with the use of you hands or a different bit.

i know that they need to be working from behind, but she won't work on the bit, when she doesn't like the bit, i was asking for bit recommendations
 
Agree with above comments but in terms of bits try one with a losenge instead of a french link.
Ive just switched from a standard french link to a neue schule verbinda-watsit and the difference in him is quite shocking!
I think its the flat link that he doesnt like.
 
I always got taught to ride the horse up into the bridle before then asking with the hands as you can get a horse into a outline by using your hand but this does not mean the horse is working correctly. A lot of bending and circles can help.

That's what i've been taught too, although i haven't explained fully what i have been taught as i've been taught a lot from different instructors and also from watching other livery's lessons, i know quite a lot about getting a horse on the bit i just can't seem to get my pony to do it, lol! :o . I've rode other horses that i have got on the bit straight away, a few of them had never really been asked to go on the bit, also, i do lots of circles as we have a small school that is for lunging mainly. :)
 
I have just backed my 5yo and we have been doing a lot of bending and getting her to stepup from behind properly before asking her to soften to me. I would be doing lots of bending with your pony getting it to use it`s backend properly before asking for it to soften for you :)
 
I'm with aus, outline doesn't come from the hands or the bit.

I really hate the phrase "getting a horse on the bit" or "getting it in an outline". You don't "get" a horse in any outline - you create the energy and allow it come into a frame as it develops the muscles to support that carriage and action.
 
OP - I think there is more going on here than a simple bit change can resolve. Some bits suit some horses better than others, but if correctly ridden, a horse should work correctly, no matter what it has in its mouth. It may go better in one bit than another, but the basic way of going doesn't come from the configuration of the piece of metal in its mouth. If your pony will not work in an round outline, I suspect that it will continue to refuse to do so until the reason for her unwillingness is identified and resolved. The way you phrase your question indicates that you are asking her to drop her nose when you fiddle with her mouth, which means that you are only putting one piece of the jigsaw in place. I would imagine that a few sessions with an instructor who doesn't focus on this technique, but looks at the overall picture, may well be more beneficial than messing around with different bits.
 
At 5 she is still a young horse and if she is reluctant on the lunge I would suspect maybe lack of balance, is she in less work now than what she was doing in the summer?
 
On the bit is actually a horrible phrase. It is what creates so many unhappy horses and ponies as so many riders concentrate on where the head is. Look up the British Dressage definition if you don't want to take my word for it, but on the bit means first and foremost that the horse is engaged behind, rounder through the back and that the head...the last piece of the puzzle is on or just above the bit.

With youngsters, so ling as they are long and stretching, it doesn't matter if they get a little overbent, they don't have the strength to hold the same frame for very long. It also doesn't matter if they come above the bit, so long as they are soft still.

What you describe is a pony that is falling into an all too common issue and it is one that we cause.

Forget about the angle of his head, think simply that you want him to be soft at the poll. Any softness at the poll that he gives you should be rewarded with soft and quiet hands.

Remember we have to teach horses a whole new language. Youngsters learn in basics...so squeezing and sponging the reins can actually be quite confusing for them. Instead use two different rein holds. One is closed where you close your fingers around the reins and block the contact, the other is when you relax the fingers and allow softness with your hands.

Work first on getting a good rhythym, then apply enough leg to create a little extra energy, but close fingers and block. Hold your hands extremely still and quietly, no fiddling, no squeezing, just hold and push pony on with your legs. They always set against it a little, then they work out in their own mind that to relieve the pressure, they soften. The instant they soften, you open fingers and soften the contact to reward them. You will only need to do this a few times and your pony will understand because it is a very basic lesson. It tenses, you tense, it relaxes, you relax. When you play with the contact, squeezing and springing, it is receiving many different messages which is very confusing.

Keep everything very very simple and reward everything good. Lots of transitions and also, don't get too caught up on this issue...it should be something you try for, not the only thing you try for.

Hope that helps as it has always been the best way I have known for youngsters or retraining ex racers.

Basic basic basic :-)
 
I forgot to reiterate how important it is that you first work on rhythm and forwardness as well.

As much as it looks pretty to have a horse working in a correct outline (my preferred way of referring to it) it is not as important at a young age as the horses relaxation and acceptance of being ridden in general.

Maybe take the pressure off a little.
Horses tend to learn more when not being ridden. If I am teaching something new to any horse, I will ask two to three times towards the end of a session, then move on to something the horse understands very well, then call it a day. Next day, start the session asking for the new thing and they always understand more quickly than if you just ask repeatedly in one session.

Give them time...you'll get it back ten fold.
 
Tell my Sec A that the bit shouldn't matter... in 10yrs (although for many of those he wasn't in work at all), he's been in a lot of different bits. Funnily, he goes best now in a PeeWee, but was always better in any straight bar/mullen mouth/ported bit - anything 'solid'! (or a hackamore... but that kind of gets away from the point). I've actually found most of my horses, and plenty of others, like straight bars or bits with very little movement - hence so many horses liking hanging cheeks I think? Nowt to do with poll pressure seeing as it isn't there. Dante really isn't keen on jointed bits, and will be very inconsistent in them, but likes his Billy Allen snaffle with just a bit of movement in it, or the PeeWee. I had a mare who went well in one of those nylon in-hand bits! Definitely worth trying different things. Wont cure everything, but it could help.
 
We had, and emphasise 'had' as it has been stolen, a Rockin' S snaffle with a lozenge imported from the US. It has to be the nicest bit we have ever used, basically a snaffle but with a very different arrangement of bit rings. It sits very quietly in the mouth and ll of ours were happy to take a contact on it.

I fully agree with what Auslander and _GG_ say but there is no hope of even that achieving the desired result if the horse is not happy in his mouth. We were also taught, by Tom Widdicombe, that so many horses these days are never really shown what they are supposed to do with a bit and he showed us exercises to do from the ground, initially, to ensure that the horse understands the purpose of the bit and how best to respond to it. The same exercises then translated to ridden work and it was great to watch as the horses almost invariably had a 'lightbulb' moment and all softened to a contact.
 
Tell my Sec A that the bit shouldn't matter... in 10yrs (although for many of those he wasn't in work at all), he's been in a lot of different bits. Funnily, he goes best now in a PeeWee, but was always better in any straight bar/mullen mouth/ported bit - anything 'solid'! (or a hackamore... but that kind of gets away from the point). I've actually found most of my horses, and plenty of others, like straight bars or bits with very little movement - hence so many horses liking hanging cheeks I think? Nowt to do with poll pressure seeing as it isn't there. Dante really isn't keen on jointed bits, and will be very inconsistent in them, but likes his Billy Allen snaffle with just a bit of movement in it, or the PeeWee. I had a mare who went well in one of those nylon in-hand bits! Definitely worth trying different things. Wont cure everything, but it could help.

I didn't say that the bit didn't matter - of course it does. In this case though - the horse refuses to accept a contact at all, rather than just being a bit fussy/unhappy in the mouth. I really don't think that a bit change will do much - the basics need to be sorted out first.
 
JFTD - I understand it isn't the best way to say it, i know you don't "get" a horse in an outline/on the bit, it's just a way of saying it :rolleyes:

Auslander - I did explain that i would say how i was taught in the most simple way, i know that asking with your hands isn't all that it is about, i make sure she is forward and has energy before i ask her. The reason i am asking about the bit is that i have already tried different riders including a top rider, saddle check,back and teeth. That is why i am now questioning the bit as i have never tried a different bit. I am having a new instructor at the weekend so will let you know how i get on :)

ImmyS - Yes she is, she is now worked twice a week, when the nights are dark later i will be riding 4-5 times a week, i understand it will be harder for her as she isn't as fit as she usually is, i will only be working on her outline once a week (taught by my new instructor) throughout winter :)

_GG_ - Yes i understand that it is all about going forward, round and working from behind, that is what my pony is lacking, she is forward, but not round or working from behind, just expecting me to hold her head when she does, rarely, bend her neck. I have also been taught the two different rein holds, she likes that better and accepts the contact better with that method, but if i want to use two different rein holds i have to be firm and hard with my hands or else she won't accept it, which is what i don't want. As i said, i don't play/move/fiddle with the reins, just a soft squeeze when she sticks her nose out, i don't want her head touching her chest, just a nice low and bendy outline. It's not a big issue as i'm not into showing or competing seriously in dressage, i would just like her to hold her head nicely. She's very happy and relaxed whilst ridden, she isn't pressured at all and that is what i do, ride her as i would, then work on it for 5/10 minutes at the end of a session, twice a week through winter (will be 4-5 times a week when nights are light). She's had a good month or two off of being asked for an outline also. Thanks for the advice

Sol And Ladyinred - Thanks for the help :) Very well put Ladyinred :)
 
_GG_ - Yes i understand that it is all about going forward, round and working from behind, that is what my pony is lacking, she is forward, but not round or working from behind, just expecting me to hold her head when she does, rarely, bend her neck. I have also been taught the two different rein holds, she likes that better and accepts the contact better with that method, but if i want to use two different rein holds i have to be firm and hard with my hands or else she won't accept it, which is what i don't want. As i said, i don't play/move/fiddle with the reins, just a soft squeeze when she sticks her nose out, i don't want her head touching her chest, just a nice low and bendy outline. .................. i would just like her to hold her head nicely. She's very happy and relaxed whilst ridden, she isn't pressured at all and that is what i do, ride her as i would, then work on it for 5/10 minutes at the end of a session, twice a week through winter (will be 4-5 times a week when nights are light). She's had a good month or two off of being asked for an outline also. Thanks for the advice


If she has had time off work, she will have lost muscle tone, so won't be able to hold herself well. I find that the most effective way to stop a horse leaning is to drop the reins entirely. What Auslander, GG and littlelegs were trying to tell you is that the horse needs to be working from behind BEFORE she will be able to hold her head in the position that you would like. In order to get her working through from behind, you must use your legs and seat effectively. When her msucles have developed she will naturally hold her head 'nice low and bendy'
 
If she has had time off work, she will have lost muscle tone, so won't be able to hold herself well. I find that the most effective way to stop a horse leaning is to drop the reins entirely. What Auslander, GG and littlelegs were trying to tell you is that the horse needs to be working from behind BEFORE she will be able to hold her head in the position that you would like. In order to get her working through from behind, you must use your legs and seat effectively. When her msucles have developed she will naturally hold her head 'nice low and bendy'

She hasn't had time off work, she is worked twice a week, and has been for the past month or so, i meant i haven't been working on her outline a lot for the past month or two.
I understand what they are telling me but i have said more than once that i already know i have to have the pony forward and working from behind before asking, anyone who has had a lesson(s) on working a pony in an outline will know all the basics if not more than the basics.

I think explaining what i have been taught in a simple way has not worked :rolleyes: :(

I know everything i need to know on working a pony in an outline as i have had years of lessons from different instructors and have done a lot of research through forums like this over the years.

I wasn't meaning to ask for help with the process to get her into an outline, i was asking about bits to *help*, *not fix* with her coming into not constant as she is young, but a soft low outline as i've said, i have tried everything but a new bit, i just thought i would explain the reason i'm questioning the bit and my situation :)

Apologies i wasn't clear enough with what i was asking
 
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I understand what they are telling me but i have said more than once that i already know i have to have the pony forward and working from behind before asking...

Yes i understand that it is all about going forward, round and working from behind, that is what my pony is lacking, she is forward, but not round or working from behind

Your posts are a little contradictory (as above), hence people are picking up on things and not focussing on your request for bitting advice. In your OP you say your pony refuses to accept any contact on the reins. That implies a much larger problem than an imperfect bit. If that was hyperbolic, the posters on this thread aren't to know and are posting advice in good faith.

Ultimately, many people who say they don't force an outline or "get" an incorrect outline (incorrectly) are misguided and actually do the very thing they claim not to. Whether or not this is relevant to you, we have no way of judging without video or first hand evidence. However, it's understandable that posters want to cover that possibility, surely?
 
Your horse is only 5 and will not have the strength or balance to maintain a consistant contact, are you using inside leg to outside rein this will help balance and support her, just squeezing the reins is not enough for a young green horse and try less contact to start with as it may be she prefers a lighter contact.

You could try a straight bar both of mine go better in a straight bit rather than any jointed one.
 
I think explaining what i have been taught in a simple way has not worked :rolleyes: :(

You're right. Perhaps you could explain it in a complicated (thorough) way, and then some of the very experienced people who are trying to offer advice may be able to get a better idea of what you are doing, and how they can help.

I'm sorry if I sound sharp, but you have been offered some very good advice on here, which you don't seem to be interested in taking on board, because you seem to think that you already know everything you need to know.

I've been doing this dressage lark for 20 years (and have ridden for 35 years) and I would never be so arrogant as to say "I know everything i need to know on working a pony in an outline". Every time I get on a horse, I aim to learn something.
 
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