getting an outline, bits?? pony refusing any contact on reins

JFTD said:
Your posts are a little contradictory (as above), hence people are picking up on things and not focussing on your request for bitting advice. In your OP you say your pony refuses to accept any contact on the reins. That implies a much larger problem than an imperfect bit. If that was hyperbolic, the posters on this thread aren't to know and are posting advice in good faith.

Ultimately, many people who say they don't force an outline or "get" an incorrect outline (incorrectly) are misguided and actually do the very thing they claim not to. Whether or not this is relevant to you, we have no way of judging without video or first hand evidence. However, it's understandable that posters want to cover that possibility, surely?
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I know they are posting advice in good faith, i feel i haven't made my question clear enough, resulting in confusion.

They were telling me how to achieve an outline, I was meaning to say that i know how to achieve an outline, i know that i have to have the pony (any pony in general) working from behind to get an outline, but my pony won't work from behind, to achieve the outline.

It is not a large problem as i said in my OP that she does accept steering and stop, therefore not a problem with the bit or anything else, until you ask for an outline, that is when the bit is a problem and she doesn't accept the contact given when asking for an outline, contact is given from your hands (and your legs etc, i know) to the bit, therefore a problem with the bit. That is how i see it anyway.

Does all that make sense? it does to me not sure if it will to anyone else? :)
 
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han4 said:
They were telling me how to achieve an outline, I was meaning to say that i know how to achieve an outline, i know that i have to have the pony (any pony in general) working from behind to get an outline, but my pony won't work from behind, to achieve the outline.


EVERY pony needs to work from behind, until you can achieve that with THIS pony, I suggest you stop worrying about 'the outline' if you do manage to get her head in the 'right' place it will be a false outline.

It is not a large problem as i said in my OP that she does accept steering and stop, therefore not a problem with the bit or anything else,

In that case the bit is NOT your problem.

until you ask for an outline, that is when the bit is a problem and she doesn't accept the contact given when asking for an outline, contact is given from your hands (and your legs etc, i know) to the bit, therefore a problem with the bit. That is how i see it anyway.


Then I'm afraid you're seeing it wrongly.

Does all that make sense? it does to me not sure if it will to anyone else? :)
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It makes perfect sense, unfortunately it's wrong. I suggest you ask your new instructor to help you get the pony working from behind
 
han4 said:
I know they are posting advice in good faith, i feel i haven't made my question clear enough, resulting in confusion.

They were telling me how to achieve an outline, I was meaning to say that i know how to achieve an outline, i know that i have to have the pony (any pony in general) working from behind to get an outline, but my pony won't work from behind, to achieve the outline.

It is not a large problem as i said in my OP that she does accept steering and stop, therefore not a problem with the bit or anything else, until you ask for an outline, that is when the bit is a problem and she doesn't accept the contact given when asking for an outline, contact is given from your hands (and your legs etc, i know) to the bit, therefore a problem with the bit. That is how i see it anyway.

Does all that make sense? it does to me not sure if it will to anyone else? :)
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I fear you miss my point. Everything you have written suggests exactly that you do not know how to acheive a correct outline - only a false outline. Your description of what you do, your description of the issue and your inconsistency in whether the pony is truly working from behind or not all suggest that you have been taught how to fake an outline. A bit change will not solve these issues.
 
Auslander said:
You're right. Perhaps you could explain it in a complicated (thorough) way, and then some of the very experienced people who are trying to offer advice may be able to get a better idea of what you are doing, and how they can help.

I'm sorry if I sound sharp, but you have been offered some very good advice on here, which you don't seem to be interested in taking on board, because you seem to think that you already know everything you need to know.

I've been doing this dressage lark for 20 years (and have ridden for 35 years) and I would never be so arrogant as to say "I know everything i need to know on working a pony in an outline". Every time I get on a horse, I aim to learn something.
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I am very interested in taking advice on board, hence why i joined the forum to ask for advice, I don't think i know everything i need to know, i meant that i know enough i need to know so far to achieve an acceptable outline, not perfect, but good enough until i learn some more through lessons, you have took that the wrong way i didn't try to make that sound arrogant at all, it's very hard to talk via computer :(

I learn something new almost every day about horses and riding, you never stop learning different things

I have explained once or twice that the advice given, i already knew, i said that because i wanted posters to know that i am asking for bit advice, not the technique/method of achieving an outline advice, i only explained my reason for questioning the bit, so you would understand why i am questioning the bit, i have thanked all advice and are grateful for the advice given.
 
han4 said:
I am very interested in taking advice on board, hence why i joined the forum to ask for advice, I don't think i know everything i need to know, i meant that i know enough i need to know so far to achieve an acceptable outline, not perfect, but good enough until i learn some more through lessons, you have took that the wrong way i didn't try to make that sound arrogant at all, it's very hard to talk via computer :(

I learn something new almost every day about horses and riding, you never stop learning different things

I have explained once or twice that the advice given, i already knew, i said that because i wanted posters to know that i am asking for bit advice, not the technique/method of achieving an outline advice, i only explained my reason for questioning the bit, so you would understand why i am questioning the bit, i have thanked all advice and are grateful for the advice given.
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The advice you have been given about how to ride your pony correctly will be of far more use to you than changing the bit - honest!! Where are you btw? I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is and give you a free lesson if you're anywhere near me.
 
JFTD said:
I fear you miss my point. Everything you have written suggests exactly that you do not know how to acheive a correct outline - only a false outline. Your description of what you do, your description of the issue and your inconsistency in whether the pony is truly working from behind or not all suggest that you have been taught how to fake an outline. A bit change will not solve these issues.
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But i have only wrote the advice that has been given to me through this post?

Auslander : You don't mention first using your legs to create energy, that is then contained by a quiet contact with her mouth.
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I then mentioned i use my legs, followed by contact with her mouth.

Kikke : A soft contact on the bit comes from working properly from behind and doesn't have much to do with the use of you hands or a different bit
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I have mentioned an outline comes from working properly from behind.

You achieve an outline through leg aid, and contact through the hands, there is obviously more to achieving an outline than just legs and hands, but i don't understand why i am wrong

Could you explain why it is a fake outline please, everything i have been taught has come from very experienced, qualified instructors, therefore not incorrect
 
han4 said:
But i have only wrote the advice that has been given to me through this post?

...

Could you explain why it is a fake outline please, everything i have been taught has come from very experienced, qualified instructors, therefore not incorrect
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Your description of fiddling and playing with your horses mouth - bad form. Your focus on head carriage / on the bit / outline - bad form. Your presumption this is a bitting issue and not a contact / riding issue - improbable. Your dismissal of (frankly very good) suggestions you should consider more than the bit - arrogant.

Just because a qualified instructor teaches something does NOT make it correct. False outlines come from an inappropriate obsession with head postion, a lack of appreciation for working correctly from behind, and lifting the forehand. False outlines are often made by playing with the reins to put the horse's head into the "pretty" position. It doesn't matter who tells you to do it - it's wrong.


eta - very generous offer from auslander...
 
han4 said:
I have mentioned an outline comes from working properly from behind.

You achieve an outline through leg aid, and contact through the hands, there is obviously more to achieving an outline than just legs and hands, but i don't understand why i am wrong

Could you explain why it is a fake outline please, everything i have been taught has come from very experienced, qualified instructors, therefore not incorrect
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Because you have also told us "that is what my pony is lacking, she is forward, but not round or working from behind,"

She will not work 'in an outline' until she is working from behind. A bit change will not help you to achieve that.

IIWY, I'd take up Auslander's very kind offer.
 
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OP, If you are determined to force this young pony into an 'outline' then get a three ring gag, ride it with just one rein, preferably on the middle ring, do not even think about putting a curb strap on the bit. You will then achieve the result you want, oh and a ruined youngster!
 
Auslander said:
The advice you have been given about how to ride your pony correctly will be of far more use to you than changing the bit - honest!! Where are you btw? I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is and give you a free lesson if you're anywhere near me.
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Yes it is useful advice, and i am thankful for the advice. Are you implying my riding is the problem? If i am wrong i apologise.
Also, if you are from Berkshire, i am from the Yorkshire area unfortunately it is quite a distance. Thanks for the offer :)

My new instructor will be a big help as they specialise in dressage
 
han4 said:
Are you implying my riding is the problem?
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Nope - just think you may be barking up the wrong tree when it comes to resolving this. Fingers crossed you get some great results with your new instructor.

Have you got any pics/video. Would be really helpful to see pone in action
 
YorksG said:
OP, If you are determined to force this young pony into an 'outline' then get a three ring gag, ride it with just one rein, preferably on the middle ring, do not even think about putting a curb strap on the bit. You will then achieve the result you want, oh and a ruined youngster!
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I never said i was determined or that i was going to do that, i just wanted bitting advice, nobody on this forum would advise me to do that, unless they had no knowledge of bits at all.
 
Auslander said:
Nope - just think you may be barking up the wrong tree when it comes to resolving this. Fingers crossed you get some great results with your new instructor.

Have you got any pics/video. Would be really helpful to see pone in action
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Okay, and thanks hopefully i will! :) i will post photos/video once problem resolved :) and unfortunately not, only got one or two from a while back so are no use.
 
han4 said:
I never said i was determined or that i was going to do that, i just wanted bitting advice, nobody on this forum would advise me to do that, unless they had no knowledge of bits at all.
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But as you have been told repeatedly a bit change will not help you get your pony into a true connected outline. I would put a loose ring snaffle on with a peanut in the middle, something like a KK, then go & get some proper lessons on riding from leg into hand. Fiddling with your hand only makes a false outline where the horse bends its neck but the hindlegs are trailing out behind.

You have said your pony will not work from behind, so this needs to be addressed first without worrying about the head, as in the scales of training, 1) Does the horse move forward from the leg?

For those that think 5 is too young to work correctly on the bridle I would disagree, but that would depend on the ability of the rider & the fitness/strength of the horse/pony.
 
han4 said:
I know they are posting advice in good faith, i feel i haven't made my question clear enough, resulting in confusion.

They were telling me how to achieve an outline, I was meaning to say that i know how to achieve an outline, i know that i have to have the pony (any pony in general) working from behind to get an outline, but my pony won't work from behind, to achieve the outline.

It is not a large problem as i said in my OP that she does accept steering and stop, therefore not a problem with the bit or anything else, until you ask for an outline, that is when the bit is a problem and she doesn't accept the contact given when asking for an outline, contact is given from your hands (and your legs etc, i know) to the bit, therefore a problem with the bit. That is how i see it anyway.

Does all that make sense? it does to me not sure if it will to anyone else? :)
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Then this is your problem not the bit. Sort that out first and the rest will be much easier. You have been given some good advice from those that have far more experiance than I think you realise, but I'll add that my favourite exercise in horses like this is lots of transitions both in the pace and between the paces. Mainly because the ones I ride are not capable of lateral work yet. Yes some horses are fussy but you will only find out if yours is one of them once you get it working from behind.

Auslander said:
The advice you have been given about how to ride your pony correctly will be of far more use to you than changing the bit - honest!! Where are you btw? I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is and give you a free lesson if you're anywhere near me.
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OP if your close I would deffinatly take up this offer!!
 
I am going to respond again with some more detailed advice regarding both the issue you feel there is with the bit and also a little more in depth thinking on a horses roundness.

First off is the bit. Those saying that the bit shouldn't matter are right and wrong at the same time. It is horses for courses. A horse that is well established in contact will go in a good contact no matter what bit it has in so long as the hands are sympathetic. A horse that is learning to accept the contact can like or dislike different bits, but again...all should be used with sympathetic hands. There is simply no way to make a horse round by using the hand...more on that in a bit.

As for the bits themselves...in youngsters, well any horse in fact, you should want to have a bit that is direct contact like a snaffle....not a leveraged bit like a gag or even a hanging cheek that applies poll pressure as a horse should want to accept the contact, not find it be evading discomfort. Stronger bits have their uses...but not for creating contact.

The more important part of bitting is understanding your horses mouth. My mare has a very small mouth but an enormous tongue. This means she has very little room. A bit with thin bars was too harsh for her, even the french link snaffle. A bit with thicker bars left her tongue no freedom. The perfect bit for her is the NS Verbindend as it allows a space for the tongue to lie in, giving her more freedom in her mouth. So...check your horses mouth, get someone who knows about this to check if you are not sure and if possible, a bitting expert and you can fit a bit to the anatomy of your horses mouth to make the horse more comfortable...that has to be the priority.

As for contact and roundness....from what you have said, I do think that the emphasis on where the horses head is placed is a little too high. The head doesn't need to be on the vertical or even near it.

Roundness actually has nothing at all to do with the head carriage. Roundness is a horse being round and lifted through the back. This is not achieved by working a horse forward into the hand, asking for it to come onto or near the vertical. Instead, it is asked for by encouraging the horse forward in a rhythmical trot and using the leg to create gentle energy while using very relaxed hands to encourage the horse to seek the contact down into a long and low frame. In a young or unestablished horse, the only way you get a round back is in a long and low frame. NOT rollkur, not nose tucked in, but the horses head and neck stretched out long and low and out in front...looking forward and the back naturally lifts up under the rider. It is very important to ride with a very light seat to ensure that the horse can relax through the back. Trot is the easiest way for the horse to learn this, so the best way to start...the easier we make it for them, the better.

When you can do this, keep at it. Allow your horse to work like this, stretching the back, buiding the muscles, increasing strength and balance slowly without any pressure or resistance from the hand and you will reap the rewards down the line.

As the horse becomes stronger through the back, you will be able to start to lift the frame a little and the horse will be strong and balanced enough to maintain a rounded back with a higher head carriage. This is what we look for in dressage...for the horse to be poll high...but they can only be poll high and round through the back when they are physically strong enough to maintain it.

I hope this comes across ok...I will post a video of me doing this work with my ex racer earlier this year. I am still doing it. She is constantly getting stronger and better and I am now able to bring her up into a higher frame for 5-10 minutes a session before allowing her to relax again.

When you ride a horse that is round in the back, you will know....it feels like you have grown 6 inches on their back...like you are sitting on the saddle, not in the saddle. When you can still feel this in a higher frame, great...if you don't, the horse isn't yet ready to correctly carry you in that frame yet.

The whole point is to make it easier for the horse to carry us.

Hope that helps.
 
I'm still of the same opinion as before, good luck with new instructor.
However I've lost respect for yorksg & auslander, everybody knows gags only work properly with draw reins through the bottom ring as the only rein, a flash & running martingale.
 
I am no perfect rider trust me. I have plenty of faults and a lot to learn, even after 30 years...but this mare hurdled for 5 years and this is just months into her retraining. I always start relaxed with a loose rein, the reins are never tense, hands never strong, no flash to strap her mouth shut, just gentle, quiet, soft and forward riding and eventually, you get glimpses of the horse seeking the contact downwards. When they do, let them and talk to them to reward them. I would work a horse like this for 10 years if it meant they ended up happy and in a true contact and frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TST_beCSPBU&feature=plcp
 
JFTD said:
Your description of fiddling and playing with your horses mouth - bad form. Your focus on head carriage / on the bit / outline - bad form. Your presumption this is a bitting issue and not a contact / riding issue - improbable. Your dismissal of (frankly very good) suggestions you should consider more than the bit - arrogant.

Just because a qualified instructor teaches something does NOT make it correct. False outlines come from an inappropriate obsession with head postion, a lack of appreciation for working correctly from behind, and lifting the forehand. False outlines are often made by playing with the reins to put the horse's head into the "pretty" position. It doesn't matter who tells you to do it - it's wrong.


eta - very generous offer from auslander...
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Your description of fiddling and playing with your horses mouth - bad form.
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In my PO, i said squeezing, that is not playing or fiddling, not moving my hands or anything else, just a soft squeeze when she looses the outline.

Your presumption this is a bitting issue and not a contact / riding issue - improbable.
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Hence the word presumption, i only presume it is a bitting issue, i don't know that for definite, that is why i asked for advice on here.

Your dismissal of (frankly very good) suggestions you should consider more than the bit - arrogant.
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I have not dismissed any advice, i have thanked all posters and have replied to all with no arrogance, i have explained to other posters if you look, about anything that was seen as me being arrogant. It is very hard to explain and show what you mean through computer which i'm sure you will understand.

False outlines come from an inappropriate obsession with head postion, a lack of appreciation for working correctly from behind, and lifting the forehand. False outlines are often made by playing with the reins to put the horse's head into the "pretty" position. It doesn't matter who tells you to do it - it's wrong.
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I don't have an obsession with head position, i just simply would like a nice, soft and low head position which i have explained once before, I completely appreciate that the pony has to be working correctly from behind, which i have also explained once before. And again, i do not play with the reins, nor do i want a "pretty" position.
 
I was thinking about this thread today when we were out hacking (and dodging some ice). Shy is in his favourite copper roller D ring. I was really asking him to step under himself, and he did well, and voila, he was on the bit. I had a good contact, so that I could steer quickly , but the difference in just asking for a good walk and trot was great, without faffing with the mouth at all.

I accept that we need lessons, and have a long way to go ( IF we want to go there anyway), but I hope that helps.
 
_GG_ said:
I am no perfect rider trust me. I have plenty of faults and a lot to learn, even after 30 years...but this mare hurdled for 5 years and this is just months into her retraining. I always start relaxed with a loose rein, the reins are never tense, hands never strong, no flash to strap her mouth shut, just gentle, quiet, soft and forward riding and eventually, you get glimpses of the horse seeking the contact downwards. When they do, let them and talk to them to reward them. I would work a horse like this for 10 years if it meant they ended up happy and in a true contact and frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TST_beCSPBU&feature=plcp
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Thanks for all the advice, very kind of you :) P.s what a lovely horse!! well done with coming so far with no gadgets!! :)
 
han4 said:

In my PO, i said squeezing, that is not playing or fiddling, not moving my hands or anything else, just a soft squeeze when she looses the outline.

squeezing is fiddling...


Hence the word presumption, i only presume it is a bitting issue, i don't know that for definite, that is why i asked for advice on here.

but you refuse to accept that it might not be related to the bit?

I have not dismissed any advice, i have thanked all posters and have replied to all with no arrogance, i have explained to other posters if you look, about anything that was seen as me being arrogant. It is very hard to explain and show what you mean through computer which i'm sure you will understand.

you've complained that people are focussing on other issues than bitting - that doesn't seem very accepting of advice to me.

I don't have an obsession with head position, i just simply would like a nice, soft and low head position which i have explained once before, I completely appreciate that the pony has to be working correctly from behind, which i have also explained once before. And again, i do not play with the reins, nor do i want a "pretty" position.
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And so on and so forth. Either way, your horse, your loss. There's none so blind as those who will not see, though.
 
shysmum said:
I was thinking about this thread today when we were out hacking (and dodging some ice). Shy is in his favourite copper roller D ring. I was really asking him to step under himself, and he did well, and voila, he was on the bit. I had a good contact, so that I could steer quickly , but the difference in just asking for a good walk and trot was great, without faffing with the mouth at all.

I accept that we need lessons, and have a long way to go ( IF we want to go there anyway), but I hope that helps.
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I think i'll try more schooling whilst out hacking, although when i try it's very hard as my pony is very nosey and easily distracted! thanks for the help :)
 
Very tired so haven't got any effort left inside me to reply to each poster but thank you all, can't wait to ride at the weekend now, will update you all on how my pony goes and could try get some photos.

Wish these dark nights would hurry and go!! :mad:
 
han4 said:
I think i'll try more schooling whilst out hacking, although when i try it's very hard as my pony is very nosey and easily distracted! thanks for the help :)
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If you alway ride your pony in the manner that you would in the school, then you are always schooling where ever you are.
 
littlelegs said:
I'm still of the same opinion as before, good luck with new instructor.
However I've lost respect for yorksg & auslander, everybody knows gags only work properly with draw reins through the bottom ring as the only rein, a flash & running martingale.
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I'm going fluffy in my old age. I even put Alf in the stable without side reins on this evening!!

JFTD said:
eta - very generous offer from auslander...
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Not that generous - I see a schooling issue and can't resist sticking my nose in!
 
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