Getting cold feet about bitting.

[Taliesan]

Eh? Lip seal? Horses breath through their nostrils - and any of the scawbridge /wraparound type bitless bridles will directly impact on the nose, unlike the bit which has nothing to do with a horses airway.

You are correct - horses do breathe through their noses. As I said in my earlier post, they are obligate nasal breathers and cannot breathe through their mouths. The reason I mentioned the lip seal is that research has shown that a horse will swallow right before starting to run. This creates a vacuum seal in their mouths and the resultant negative pressure in the oropharynx holds their soft palate in place. This means that the horse's breathing system is free to operate at maximum efficiency. The lips forming an air-tight seal is an important part of this process.

The bit can create holes in the horse's lip seal (these can be tiny, the horse's mouth doesn't have to be wide open) which allows air into their mouth and this dissipates the negative pressure the horse had created by swallowing. Without this vacuum seal the soft palate will move around in the back of their throat and, with each intake of breath, their airway will be obstructed.

Here are three articles talking about three different pieces of research on the matter. The first one also has an excellent diagram illustrating this process.

https://horsesandpeople.com.au/clearing-the-air-on-the-bit-free-debate/

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/innovation/sandra-hurley-ul-famelab-equine-health-bit

https://thehorse.com/136474/bits-and-breathing-whats-the-relationship/

No bitless bridle should have any impact on a horse's ability to breathe when correctly fitted. The noseband of a bitless bridle should sit on the skull of the hose above the nasal bones and thus have no pressure on the nostrils - it is no different to where a correctly fitted cavesson noseband should sit.

In my opinion things like drop and flash nosebands will have far more of a detrimental impact on the horse's ability to breathe as their design closes right around and across the nostrils of the horse.

 

[Cortez]

You are correct - horses do breathe through their noses. As I said in my earlier post, they are obligate nasal breathers and cannot breathe through their mouths. The reason I mentioned the lip seal is that research has shown that a horse will swallow right before starting to run. This creates a vacuum seal in their mouths and the resultant negative pressure in the oropharynx holds their soft palate in place. This means that the horse's breathing system is free to operate at maximum efficiency. The lips forming an air-tight seal is an important part of this process.

The bit can create holes in the horse's lip seal (these can be tiny, the horse's mouth doesn't have to be wide open) which allows air into their mouth and this dissipates the negative pressure the horse had created by swallowing. Without this vacuum seal the soft palate will move around in the back of their throat and, with each intake of breath, their airway will be obstructed.

Here are three articles talking about three different pieces of research on the matter. The first one also has an excellent diagram illustrating this process.

https://horsesandpeople.com.au/clearing-the-air-on-the-bit-free-debate/

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/innovation/sandra-hurley-ul-famelab-equine-health-bit

https://thehorse.com/136474/bits-and-breathing-whats-the-relationship/

No bitless bridle should have any impact on a horse's ability to breathe when correctly fitted. The noseband of a bitless bridle should sit on the skull of the hose above the nasal bones and thus have no pressure on the nostrils - it is no different to where a correctly fitted cavesson noseband should sit.

In my opinion things like drop and flash nosebands will have far more of a detrimental impact on the horse's ability to breathe as their design closes right around and across the nostrils of the horse.

What on earth does the above have to do with ordinary riding and training? Soft palate obstruction has only ever been a problem for a small number horses in racing and has no relevance whatsoever for someone trying to decide on the best training for a heavy horse in the leisure sphere. Why on earth do you bring up a bunch of entirely irrelevant information that has nothing to do with a discussion on whether or not training with a bit is inherently cruel? It's this kind of obfuscation and wordsalad pontificating that gets the novice rider/owner so confused and stressed by guff that they don't know which way to turn, and opens the door for all the "new way" advocates to get their carrot sticks in.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Bits are not cruel I wouldn't personally get on any horse without a bit in there mouth definitely not a huge horse like yours.

Years ago a woman at the yard only rode hers in a bit less bridle, the horse was about 15.3 and it used to piss off with her constantly in the school quite badly and she literally had no control, no one wanted to share the school when she was riding everyone could see how dangerous it was.

She never hacked it out either I wonder why?

 

[Amirah]

I am sure any novice who searches parelli on here would find plenty to discourage them from the cult of the orange stick (thank goodness). The articles were interesting.

My humble opinion is to go with whatever the horse prefers and finds easiest to understand with the least amount of pressure. I first tried bitless twenty years ago after acquiring a horse with a damaged mouth and have used both bitless and bits in the subsequent years, currently bitless. Being unable to pull up is more of a training issue than a bitting issue as bitted horses can tank off too.

 

[Chinchilla]

Bits aren't cruel if fitted and used properly and you won't have no control in a bitless bridle if you fit and use it properly.

 

[paddy555]

It's this kind of obfuscation and wordsalad pontificating that gets the novice rider/owner so confused and stressed by guff that they don't know which way to turn, and opens the door for all the "new way" advocates to get their carrot sticks in.

alternatively one could see it that it makes people think about the established ways and wonder if there are better ways of doing things. That is totally not just about bits but about everything to do with horses (and everything else in life in fact)

 

[paddy555]

Bits are not cruel I wouldn't personally get on any horse without a bit in there mouth definitely not a huge horse like yours.

Years ago a woman at the yard only rode hers in a bit less bridle, the horse was about 15.3 and it used to piss off with her constantly in the school quite badly and she literally had no control, no one wanted to share the school when she was riding everyone could see how dangerous it was.

She never hacked it out either I wonder why?

I would suggest the reason she never hacked out was nothing to do with the headgear but a whole lot to do with her lack of training the horse.

I ride bitless and I always ride out as I simply don't have a school. I don't ride just on roads and tracks but on open moorland where the horse could take off for miles if he wished to.

I have done this on all my horses with no problem. A bit wouldn't have made any difference. Not training them would have. OH used to ride his horse, an arab stallion out in a hackamore. If he could easily control a stallion riding through bands of feral mares in a hackamore then I can't see it is as dangerous as you seem to believe.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I would suggest the reason she never hacked out was nothing to do with the headgear but a whole lot to do with her lack of training the horse.

I ride bitless and I always ride out as I simply don't have a school. I don't ride just on roads and tracks but on open moorland where the horse could take off for miles if he wished to.

I have done this on all my horses with no problem. A bit wouldn't have made any difference. Not training them would have. OH used to ride his horse, an arab stallion out in a hackamore. If he could easily control a stallion riding through bands of feral mares in a hackamore then I can't see it is as dangerous as you seem to believe.

It's the only real experience I have of them and because it wasn't very successful it kind of puts a downer on it, I don't doubt it was all down to a lack of training this is a person who used treats to get the same horse into it's stable every day.

I am sure done correctly it's fine but I personally do and would feel safer riding with a bit that's just how I feel.

 

[Amirah]

I can totally understand that, it felt very weird to me at first, but now riding with a bit feels weirder than without! What happened to the unfortunate woman, hope she is still alive (extremely wise of her to stick to the school!)

 

[cblover]

I’ve read each and every one of your replies and I thank you for them.
It’s an emotive subject and probably the reason I feel confused about it.

Truth is it feels kinder to me....for want of a better word and something I’d like to try out. I don’t feel inferior or superior for wanting to ride bitless. It’s a personal thing I suppose.

Thanks again for all your views. Have a good day and keep safe.

 

[Red-1]

Just a photo to show that riding bitted does not mean that you always have to, or that it spoils the bond (ducks LOL ?).

We did road riding, BD, BE and BS in a snaffle though. I didn't ride in a nose pressure bitless as he had a damaged nose. Only had a loose noseband for the same reason.Using a nose for control can be quite severe (damage was prior to my ownership I hasten to add!).

My first comment upthread was that you are over thinking it. The photo shows why.

Enjoy your horse. If you fancy bitting then do. It won't spoil anything and gives your horse a more rounded education. I couldn't be less passionate one way or the other, other than I hate to see people tied up and worrying. But, I guess you won't know if it suits your horse better or not without trying. And trying won't hurt. The bit can be removed again. Trust will still be there. You are just giving yourself more options.

 

[ycbm]

You are correct - horses do breathe through their noses. As I said in my earlier post, they are obligate nasal breathers and cannot breathe through their mouths. The reason I mentioned the lip seal is that research has shown that a horse will swallow right before starting to run. This creates a vacuum seal in their mouths and the resultant negative pressure in the oropharynx holds their soft palate in place. This means that the horse's breathing system is free to operate at maximum efficiency. The lips forming an air-tight seal is an important part of this process.

The bit can create holes in the horse's lip seal (these can be tiny, the horse's mouth doesn't have to be wide open) which allows air into their mouth and this dissipates the negative pressure the horse had created by swallowing. Without this vacuum seal the soft palate will move around in the back of their throat and, with each intake of breath, their airway will be obstructed.

Here are three articles talking about three different pieces of research on the matter. The first one also has an excellent diagram illustrating this process.

https://horsesandpeople.com.au/clearing-the-air-on-the-bit-free-debate/

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/innovation/sandra-hurley-ul-famelab-equine-health-bit

https://thehorse.com/136474/bits-and-breathing-whats-the-relationship/

No bitless bridle should have any impact on a horse's ability to breathe when correctly fitted. The noseband of a bitless bridle should sit on the skull of the hose above the nasal bones and thus have no pressure on the nostrils - it is no different to where a correctly fitted cavesson noseband should sit.

In my opinion things like drop and flash nosebands will have far more of a detrimental impact on the horse's ability to breathe as their design closes right around and across the nostrils of the horse.

I can't believe that when the fastest horses in the world over a mile, and four and a half miles plus huge fences, all wear bits, that anyone can make a serious suggestion that a bit stops a leisure horse from breathing efficiently.


.

 

[Gloi]

Bits aren't cruel if fitted and used properly and you won't have no control in a bitless bridle if you fit and use it properly.

That is one serious bit of kit that he's using. He knows what is needed to control that horse but that could be very damaging if wrongly used and certainly proves all bitless rigs aren't mild.

 

[Red-1]

I can't believe that when the fastest horses in the world over a mile, and four and a half miles plus huge fences, all wear bits, that anyone can make a serious suggestion that a bit stops a leisure horse from breathing efficiently.


.

I was once riding a Police Horse at a football match, and a jockey came up to me complaining that my throat lash was too tight. He was bigging it up that he was a jockey, he had consumed a beer or two

I did try to explain that, for a racehorse, yes the throat lash would be too tight for galloping and jumping, for maximum air flow. But, as a Police Horse, he would be mainly standing and walking, and that we may be in danger for 'fans' trying to pull the bridle off, so the throat lash was purposely tighter than his horses' rather than it being an oversight.

He carried on bigging it up, but I also explained that yes, I did know about it being tighter than a galloping horse, I was, in fact, competing FEI eventing, including steeplechase (I am aged!) and when doing that my horse's throat lash was considerably looser...

Horses for courses, eh?

 

[be positive]

I can't believe that when the fastest horses in the world over a mile, and four and a half miles plus huge fences, all wear bits, that anyone can make a serious suggestion that a bit stops a leisure horse from breathing efficiently.


.

I watched the last race just now to see if any horses were 'running' without having their mouths open, none were, unless the poster is correct that they only have their mouths open because of the bit, which is highly doubtful, I do not see how these horses actually manage to go at such speed, even horses messing about loose often have their mouths open.

A lip seal is needed for them to drink properly although is is not required for them to swallow, liquids or food, it can make swallowing water difficult if they cannot maintain a seal, having had to nurse a horse with a badly damaged mouth for weeks that could not drink, he could slurp liquid that was thickened a bit but could not seal his lips fully for 8 weeks to enable him to drink plain water, he was on box rest so no running allowed but he did manage some interesting airs above the ground when walking in hand without struggling to breathe

 

[Ellibelli]

Just a photo to show that riding bitted does not mean that you always have to, or that it spoils the bond (ducks LOL ?).View attachment 49260

We did road riding, BD, BE and BS in a snaffle though. I didn't ride in a nose pressure bitless as he had a damaged nose. Only had a loose noseband for the same reason.Using a nose for control can be quite severe (damage was prior to my ownership I hasten to add!).

My first comment upthread was that you are over thinking it. The photo shows why.

Enjoy your horse. If you fancy bitting then do. It won't spoil anything and gives your horse a more rounded education. I couldn't be less passionate one way or the other, other than I hate to see people tied up and worrying. But, I guess you won't know if it suits your horse better or not without trying. And trying won't hurt. The bit can be removed again. Trust will still be there. You are just giving yourself more options.

Lovely photo Red. I have huge admiration for those that can do this, but one thing I have noticed with horses ridden without bridles is that they always seem to have their ears back in photos? I'm sure this isn't due to an unhappy horse, but do you know why this seems to happen - are they just listening to their rider?

 

[Red-1]

double post

 

[Red-1]

Lovely photo Red. I have huge admiration for those that can do this, but one thing I have noticed with horses ridden without bridles is that they always seem to have their ears back in photos? I'm sure this isn't due to an unhappy horse, but do you know why this seems to happen - are they just listening to their rider?

I didn't find his ears to be tense. I have just double checked a video of us jumping round a course without a bridle, and his ears are active, rotating round, listening, looking...

I do find people doing ground stuff with nothing often has ears back, but not bridleless in particular. TBH, I don't do it much. He was generally a happy chap though.

 

[Amirah]

Gorgeous photos Red, huge admiration here too.

 

[soloequestrian]

Late to the party here, but I have similar feelings. I've ridden both bitted and bitless for years - my last horse had a hackamore for hacks (appropriately) and a snaffle for schooling. I briefly tried bitting my youngster and although she didn't seem to hate it, she just spent the whole time looking like she had an irritating toffee stuck to her teeth - she was going 'just hang on a minute, I've got something odd going on here'. It felt quite intrusive putting something in her mouth in a way that putting things on her (saddle etc) never did. I tried her in a Scrawbrig, which she clearly loathed, a simple Transcend which she ignored, finally ending up back in the trusty old hackamore which she instantly understood and was comfortable in. We've not done all that much yet but I have no plans to bit her. I like the fact that when you don't need the bridle, it just sits there passively whereas the bit is always slightly under pressure even when not in use.
I can understand the argument about bitting if you are planning to sell on unless you only want to sell to a restricted audience. I did post on here a while ago hoping to get a discussion going but there seems to be very little support for bitless at the moment, as others have said in a similar way to views on barefoot a few years ago.
ETA I don't think there is an age limit on bitting either - it's not a 'forever' decision at this stage!

 

[Mule]

That is one serious bit of kit that he's using. He knows what is needed to control that horse but that could be very damaging if wrongly used and certainly proves all bitless rigs aren't mild.

When William Micklem brought out the Micklem bridle he used to carry Boomerang's skull around as part of his demonstration. This was to illustrate the points of the skull that can be damaged by bridle pressure. The nasal pressure from the bitless bridle Boomerang wore had resulted in two of his molars being broken off..

 

[Cortez]

When William Micklem brought out the Micklem bridle he used to carry Boomerang's skull around as part of his demonstration. This was to illustrate the points of the skull that can be damaged by bridle pressure. The nasal pressure from the bitless bridle Boomerang wore had resulted in two of his molars being broken off..

Yes, I've handled that skull; it also has considerable changes over the septum. The type of mechanical hackamore used on Boomerang is a fearsome implement, they were popular for a while, thankfully I've not seen one for years. People really don't like to be told that their favourite "kind" "mild" "natural" new discovery is actually not very nice at all, but that's people for you......

 

[Chinchilla]

I was sharing that vid to prove you can have control bitless, not about whether it's kind or not; I think both can - and do - cause harm when used incorrectly.
¯\_('.')_/¯

 

[planete]

Isabel Werth is riding a highly trained horse who has reached this level by being trained with bits for many years and I am not sure the horse is having that much fun. The pressure on his nose looks quite strong at times and it could probably be a lot lighter if he was wearing his double bridle.

I have trained my last two horses both bitless and with a bit, schooled them and hacked them out. For relaxation and western style I prefer bitless, for more classical riding and collection, I find a bit affords a much enhanced level of communication.

 

[Amirah]

I've heard you can break a horse's nose, particularly if you don't position the noseband correctly, in an English hackamore. If you need a really strong long shanked bitless then a bit could be safer.

 

[Sleipnir]

I thought long and hard before posting on this thread. Here it goes.

For many years, I was a die-hard bitless advocate, ever since I got into horses and, later, bought my own First Horse. He was first trained in a rope halter but later on, I understood that the cues in a rope halter are imprecise and that he actually hated the pressure. I tried switching to a simple sidepull - no luck, horse hated it. Switched to a Little S hackamore and then an LG hackamore - went well for a while, then protested. Figured that pressure from the long shanks was too much for him, so tried an Orbitless, in which he went like a dream...compared to the previous ones. I still felt that he was uncomfortable with the concept of "contact" and that the bridle worked the best when we went on loose rein hacks.

Years on, took lessons with a very good and acknowledged dressage coach. She encouraged me to try a bit and helped me finding a well fitted one.

Deep breath here, but I have to admit - this choice really changed my relationship with my horse - to the best. He's more active and responsive in a bit, he's more impulsive, whereas before he lacked impulse, he bends, he flexes, he responds. And not because I see-saw on the bit - absolutely not! He just seems to prefer the bit, much to my confusion.

I, sometime along the line, had a chiro out. The chiro asked me - "Do you realize, how sensitive your horses' face is? He cannot tolerate any pressure on the nose at all!". It was a humbling moment. Everything clicked together - the straightness training sessions during which he objected to any pressure on his nose, the fact that he has always avoided pressure on his nose even in undemanding circumstances, and many others. I can only guess - was this created by bad hands in a rope halter before I bought him or later along the way... But right now, if I want to work on anything, he's bitted - and happy. And if I want to work on some extra relaxation, cues and trust - we're bridleless, even on trails, over XC jumps or long reining.

In short - do what is best for your horse. He will tell you.

 

[SEL]

You can do both OP - bitted and bit less. When my Appy came to me I was told that someone has tried to back her and she'd reared over on them. I didn't want to accidentally catch her in the mouth and have her go up so re started her in a dually..I had thoughts of the odd dressage test then so knew I wanted her bitted and used to ride with the bridle and the dually so she got used to both.

You might find with larger bit sizes you are a bit limited as to the range. My Ardennes was a logging horse so wasn't very educated under saddle. He came with a fulmer french link which he completely ignored - the only horse who has ever p'd off with me in walk! He just set that big belgian neck and walked to the hay barn ? Blue Horse equine sourced me a 6.5" Pelham which meant when I gave an instruction he did actually listen.