mareish
Active Member
My mare is difficult to load and I really need some help to solve the problem. Has anyone tried getting an expert in to solve their loading problems?
Getting help with loading issues
- Thread starter mareish
- Start date
ticobay831
Well-Known Member
was going to get help with mylad but decided to spend time on sorting issues out myself, which im pleased to say i did, it took time and patience but it was worth it in the end .
annunziata
Well-Known Member
Mine was a total nightmare but seem to have solved the issue myself fingers crossed but do know some people who called in an expert what is the issue???
mareish
Active Member
I've been trying to sort the problem out myself for about a year. Sometimes I can load her with food and it doesn't take long but quite often it can take me two hours or more. She is basically very stubborn and gets to the bottom of the ramp then won't move. She isn't scared and has never had a bad travelling experience. Once she is loaded she travels fine.
I have tried everything I can think of the get her to load ranging from all sorts of treats to lunge lines and tapping her quarters with a stick (not smacking her). I have had people suggest giving her a good smack until she goes in or using a chifney but I really don't want to do this. I've tried a parelli type halter and spent lots of time doing ground work with her in it away from the trailer but once I get her near the trailer she rears up as soon as I put any pressure on. I have also had an experienced friend who has done a lot of parelli try to load her with no success.
I think sometimes it really does depend on what kind of mood she is in as to whether I can load her or not so I thought I should get some help to try to solve the problem permenantly.
I have tried everything I can think of the get her to load ranging from all sorts of treats to lunge lines and tapping her quarters with a stick (not smacking her). I have had people suggest giving her a good smack until she goes in or using a chifney but I really don't want to do this. I've tried a parelli type halter and spent lots of time doing ground work with her in it away from the trailer but once I get her near the trailer she rears up as soon as I put any pressure on. I have also had an experienced friend who has done a lot of parelli try to load her with no success.
I think sometimes it really does depend on what kind of mood she is in as to whether I can load her or not so I thought I should get some help to try to solve the problem permenantly.
Sophstar
Well-Known Member
My cob was incredibly rude and stubborn when I bought my box and first time trying to load it took 4 ppl nearly an hour, because like your mare he stood at the bottom of the ramp and planted himself. He would go halfway up then decide no further or casually drag you back down with him. I needed to be able to load him by myself and not face getting stuck somewhere with no help!
Bought a pressure halter and with assistance from a friend designated a day to sort him out! For nearly 2 hours we debated with him, in the sense he simply wouldn't go in, not scared or panicked just STUBBORN. When he moved forward released the pressure when he tried to leg it we held the pressure. EVENTUALLY he walked in, made him stand there gave him a carrot walked him straight out the side ramp. Loaded the 2nd time in 5 mins, stood had a carrot walked out. Repeated this 10 times and by the tenth time he walked up before me
Repeated again the next 2 days and by that weekend I loaded him by myself, he casually walked straight on and we did a sponsored ride and he loaded himself coming home. So proud
Admittedly I had to hand him over to my friend to continue during our 2 hours of practice as my patience was wearing thin and gave myself a 5 min breather but it was good feeling when he just loaded himself
Bought a pressure halter and with assistance from a friend designated a day to sort him out! For nearly 2 hours we debated with him, in the sense he simply wouldn't go in, not scared or panicked just STUBBORN. When he moved forward released the pressure when he tried to leg it we held the pressure. EVENTUALLY he walked in, made him stand there gave him a carrot walked him straight out the side ramp. Loaded the 2nd time in 5 mins, stood had a carrot walked out. Repeated this 10 times and by the tenth time he walked up before me
Repeated again the next 2 days and by that weekend I loaded him by myself, he casually walked straight on and we did a sponsored ride and he loaded himself coming home. So proud Admittedly I had to hand him over to my friend to continue during our 2 hours of practice as my patience was wearing thin and gave myself a 5 min breather but it was good feeling when he just loaded himselfmareish
Active Member
This sounds a lot like my mare. I have tried to use pressure and release but she just won't move once you get near the trailer and if you keep holding the pressure on she rears up and has hit me in the face once. She understands pressure and release and is well behaved in most circumstances. Thats why I think I need help. I wish I could sort the problem out myself but realistically I'm just not getting anywhere.
LouS
Well-Known Member
I'd highly recommend Richard Maxwell, well worth the money, he really knows what he's doing with horses like this.
wench
Well-Known Member
Try a good smack... it might just work.
Sophstar
Well-Known Member
Did u have her on the end of a lead rope or a lunge line?! My cob is usually a dopey dodo but the argument did involve him rearing and trying to leg it away from the ramp. Luckily at the end of the lunge line I stood safely in the box!
Brightbay
Well-Known Member
When you've tried a few things, and the problem seems to be getting worse rather than going away, it's worth getting the opinion of a behaviourist.
Not sure who's a qualified behaviourist near you, but Justine Harrison does cover the North of England and it would certainly be worth speaking to her.
When a horse plants, that's not necessarily stubbornness - a stubborn horse refuses to do all kinds of things, not just one specific thing. A horse who plants when asked to do one specific thing is, for some reason, anxious about it.
Justine's website is here: http://www.equinebehaviourist.co.uk/faq.html There are other behaviourists possibly covering your area - if there are, Justine will know of them.
Not sure who's a qualified behaviourist near you, but Justine Harrison does cover the North of England and it would certainly be worth speaking to her.
When a horse plants, that's not necessarily stubbornness - a stubborn horse refuses to do all kinds of things, not just one specific thing. A horse who plants when asked to do one specific thing is, for some reason, anxious about it.
Justine's website is here: http://www.equinebehaviourist.co.uk/faq.html There are other behaviourists possibly covering your area - if there are, Justine will know of them.
mareish
Active Member
I had her on a long line the time she hit me so I was too close. I have tried her on a lunge line to give me some extra room but I can't hold onto her if she rears and pulls away. I've tried with my friend holding the line as well as me but she pulled us both over
My boy friend tried once and managed to hold onto her for a bit but she cantered off in the end.
Bernster
Well-Known Member
I used an Intelligent Horsemanship (Kelly Marks) person - they might have a recommended person near to you. Have heard good things of Richard Maxwell too but not cheap!
Natch
Well-Known Member
I really don't think you should discount being scared, or having had a bad experience. You aren't actually inside her head, after all, so there may be something you have missed. You haven't mentioned if she is stubbon in any other situation. Has your trailer been checked by a relevant authority? Is it ALWAYS driven VERY carefully and considerately? Have you been driven around in it yourself (off road and carefully) to see if there are any undue noises or sensations? Could going up a ramp and being in a moving vehicle cause her pain - when was her back last checked? Even things like an electricity fault with the wiring can cause a horse to not to want to go into a trailer...
If she is rearing up and cantering off down the road, she is probably doing so because you haven't addressed her concerns which she made known to you by refusing to go up the ramp.
Put in some time walking her over different surfaces, putting her into mock situations like a small space, things rattling overhead and around her, limited visibility etc... and try to work out exactly what it is she is objecting to.
And yes, I agree that you would benefit from a good behaviourist.
Good luck
ticobay831
Well-Known Member
as i said earlier i managed to sort my lad out, i had to take it slowly with him but eventually he went on calmly and quietly, and he did so in just a head collar, had tried a presure halter and although he was good with it at first he refused to be loaded with it on whenwe got a new box, and was happy to go on with the head collar.
My oldie now thats a different story hes always been pretty good to load but he also has had his moments, he just get a smack with the end of the rope if he refuses to go in after a second attempt and a firm telling off and that seems to do the trick.
Every horse is different and what works for one dosnt necersary work with anotherf, its very frustrating, hope you manage to get it sorted.
Have you just tried feeding her on it every day for a couple of weeks then bringing her off, i know this has worked for a friend of mine that was having trouble.
I know what you mean bout not wanting to smack her, i was like that with my younster, smacking him just wouldnt have worked, but sometimes a tap with a schooling whip does help and then usually after that you just have to show it to them and they go on.
My oldie now thats a different story hes always been pretty good to load but he also has had his moments, he just get a smack with the end of the rope if he refuses to go in after a second attempt and a firm telling off and that seems to do the trick.
Every horse is different and what works for one dosnt necersary work with anotherf, its very frustrating, hope you manage to get it sorted.
Have you just tried feeding her on it every day for a couple of weeks then bringing her off, i know this has worked for a friend of mine that was having trouble.
I know what you mean bout not wanting to smack her, i was like that with my younster, smacking him just wouldnt have worked, but sometimes a tap with a schooling whip does help and then usually after that you just have to show it to them and they go on.
mareish
Active Member
Thank you for all your advice.
I have had my trailer checked and it is all safe and I have even tried putting foam padding under the top doors to try to prevent any extra noise when she is travelling in it. I have tried loading with and without a partition and with and without another horse in the trailer but if she is having a not loading day none of these things make any difference.
I was worried that she might be frightened of the trailer to start with but now I'm not sure as sometimes she loads fine and only takes me 5-10 mins and other times she won't load at all. I don't do anything different and it's the same trailer and everything is in the same place as when I have successfully loaded her. This is what made me think she is just being difficult.
I have tried feeding her in the trailer. Again sometimes she walks in quite happily and eats the feed and other times she won't go in. I'd says it's about 50-50 as to what happens. I really want to be able to load her without having to force her in or tempt her in with food.
Anyway I've got a few ideas now so I'm going to speak to a few different professionals for their opinion and hopefully I'll find someone who can help.
I have had my trailer checked and it is all safe and I have even tried putting foam padding under the top doors to try to prevent any extra noise when she is travelling in it. I have tried loading with and without a partition and with and without another horse in the trailer but if she is having a not loading day none of these things make any difference.
I was worried that she might be frightened of the trailer to start with but now I'm not sure as sometimes she loads fine and only takes me 5-10 mins and other times she won't load at all. I don't do anything different and it's the same trailer and everything is in the same place as when I have successfully loaded her. This is what made me think she is just being difficult.
I have tried feeding her in the trailer. Again sometimes she walks in quite happily and eats the feed and other times she won't go in. I'd says it's about 50-50 as to what happens. I really want to be able to load her without having to force her in or tempt her in with food.
Anyway I've got a few ideas now so I'm going to speak to a few different professionals for their opinion and hopefully I'll find someone who can help.
Mrs C
Well-Known Member
Have a look on Kelly Marks' website - there's a list of recommended associates. Hopefully there is one near you and whilst its prob not cheap, I've only heard good things
spacefaer
Well-Known Member
Horses are very good at training us aren't they? She's taught you to give her food virtually on demand and she's learnt that standing still/planting means she doesn't have to go somewhere she doesn't choose to. The fact that she rears when you put pressure on is her way of saying to you "I already said no - and now I really mean NO"
You have to have the patience of a saint and the strength of a bodybuilder. She needs to learn that whatever she does, she can't get away from you, whether she goes up, or pulls away or whatever trick she produces.
She only gets a reward when she's in, not to tempt her in (if you use food to tempt her, you've put her in control - she can choose whether or not to eat/go in)
You may need to enlist the the help of someone knowledgeable just to establish her obedience - Richard Maxwell is brililiant
My OH used to work with difficult loaders - he says it's one of the easiest resistances to fix (he does have the patience of the proverbial, and he just stands and waits for the horse to accept that they have to go in. No stress, no whips, no food, no pressure - just making clear what the question is and how the horse has to answer it.
Whenever he goes to competitions with me, he always comes homes saying he ought to start doing loading clinics again!
You have to have the patience of a saint and the strength of a bodybuilder. She needs to learn that whatever she does, she can't get away from you, whether she goes up, or pulls away or whatever trick she produces.
She only gets a reward when she's in, not to tempt her in (if you use food to tempt her, you've put her in control - she can choose whether or not to eat/go in)
You may need to enlist the the help of someone knowledgeable just to establish her obedience - Richard Maxwell is brililiant
My OH used to work with difficult loaders - he says it's one of the easiest resistances to fix (he does have the patience of the proverbial, and he just stands and waits for the horse to accept that they have to go in. No stress, no whips, no food, no pressure - just making clear what the question is and how the horse has to answer it.
Whenever he goes to competitions with me, he always comes homes saying he ought to start doing loading clinics again!
jangles
New User
Echo this
Ladydragon
Well-Known Member
I agree... My youngster's way of spooking is to plant - totally motionless until he's had a good look and decides that mum's right and all's well with the world...
I had her on a long line the time she hit me so I was too close. I have tried her on a lunge line to give me some extra room but I can't hold onto her if she rears and pulls away. I've tried with my friend holding the line as well as me but she pulled us both over
If there's no rush and you're still fairly relaxed you could try target training her using a clicker training approach and then using that to make bite sized moves towards loading... It'll take time, patience and commitment though and if they might be a bit of an issue at the moment (understandable if you're feeling like you've been getting no where) then I'd definitely go with the option of seeking some assistance from a reputable behaviourist... Good luck...
Spangie
Well-Known Member
she sounds so much like my gelding! literally there was nothing i could do to make him load if he didn't want to and other days he'd walk straight in. That said he 100% loaded if there was someone else on board, so with him, i think it was nappiness. I did have a 'horse whisperer' out to him. Which actually made everything worse, so if you do go down that route, make sure you do your research and stop the session if you think what they're doing doens't work for you.
mareish
Active Member
I agree... My youngster's way of spooking is to plant - totally motionless until he's had a good look and decides that mum's right and all's well with the world...
If there's no rush and you're still fairly relaxed you could try target training her using a clicker training approach and then using that to make bite sized moves towards loading... It'll take time, patience and commitment though and if they might be a bit of an issue at the moment (understandable if you're feeling like you've been getting no where) then I'd definitely go with the option of seeking some assistance from a reputable behaviourist... Good luck...
I tried clicker training and really enjoyed doing it with her. She learnt to touch a target, move to a target and stand at a target. I practiced quite a lot and then tried it with the trailer and she went in and stood without any problems. I was really pleased. However the second time she was a bit more difficult and by the third time she didn't want to know. Now I can still do all the clicker training exercises in the stable, school or yard but they don't help with the loading at all.
xxMozlarxx
Well-Known Member
Poor you..I know the frustrations of this, got an old boy who knows every trick, he's not worried or frightened just nappy, will go in sweetly sometimes and not at all at others, always loads with my other horse. Ive had to get tough with him (smacking etc does nothing) if he doesn't go in sweetly I turn him, and very firmly trot him at the box and almost throw him in, with him going up alone, it's hard to explain but it's worked every time. I'm then still stood at the back to put the bar up as he's a master of the quick back out too. He comes out the other end cool as cucumber, he's just cheeky! 
Ladydragon
Well-Known Member
I tried clicker training and really enjoyed doing it with her. She learnt to touch a target, move to a target and stand at a target. I practiced quite a lot and then tried it with the trailer and she went in and stood without any problems. I was really pleased. However the second time she was a bit more difficult and by the third time she didn't want to know. Now I can still do all the clicker training exercises in the stable, school or yard but they don't help with the loading at all.
Was the second time straight loading or a repeat of the steps to 'follow the target' to load?
I find that the minute there's a wobble with something, I go straight back to a stage that will definitely earn a reward and then go through the stages of expecting a bit more... There is a stage when removal of the reinforcer can result in a resurgence of the unwanted behaviour or even, after all's going fine and dandy, it can spontaneously recover out of the blue - and the wrong 'cue' reinforces the unwanted behaviour so back to square one... Which all sounds very good except I still sometimes jump too far ahead and have to move back a few steps - and it's my 'area' so to speak... *sigh*
Have you tried target training her to your slightly outstretched hand when you're facing away from her? And then 'upgrading' it to follow you... If you could crack that (and it sounds as if you're more than capable) you could then add in a component that includes reinforcement stages from following your hand onto the first piece of the ramp through to full loading... If you want, I can dig out a link to a behavioural analysis research paper submitted as part of a masters programme - part of the research included target training for loading... I can only send a link to the page of one of the authors - not distribute the paper...
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Spottyappy
Well-Known Member
look here:
http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/educational-courses.html
18th august is a course, with Kelly Marks, which would normally be free if you supply the horse.
I recently did one like this with our mare, who would also refuse to load by rearing/planting.The course was fantastic. It also taught us how to use the Dually pressure halter correctly, which is vital to the training working.
she is still not perfect, but -touch wood- usually load now, with using a barrier to block the side of the ramp that she will plant near.
What I also found useful,from doing the course, was to get board, tarpaulin, and other different sufaces, to put on the floor and get her walking over. Desensitising, in other words.
http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/educational-courses.html
18th august is a course, with Kelly Marks, which would normally be free if you supply the horse.
I recently did one like this with our mare, who would also refuse to load by rearing/planting.The course was fantastic. It also taught us how to use the Dually pressure halter correctly, which is vital to the training working.
she is still not perfect, but -touch wood- usually load now, with using a barrier to block the side of the ramp that she will plant near.
What I also found useful,from doing the course, was to get board, tarpaulin, and other different sufaces, to put on the floor and get her walking over. Desensitising, in other words.
mirage
Well-Known Member
Knobberpony planted when led,and had history of being a bad loader[although loaded fine with me],so I wanted to nip it in the bud before it escalated I had Linda Ruffle,who works with Kelly Marks out and she was fabulous.She taught me how to keep knobberpony moving and we don't have any problems now.
My friend had a bad loader who Linda picked for a demo-friend had to hack her to the demo about 6 miles as there was no other way to get her there,but after the demo,once my friend knew what to do,she is fine to load now.
I can heartily recommend Linda,and she is in South Derbyshire,so not a long way away from you.
My friend had a bad loader who Linda picked for a demo-friend had to hack her to the demo about 6 miles as there was no other way to get her there,but after the demo,once my friend knew what to do,she is fine to load now.
I can heartily recommend Linda,and she is in South Derbyshire,so not a long way away from you.
mareish
Active Member
mirage- thank you for this information. Linda sounds good and local.
lady dragon- thank you for your post. The first time I tried getting her to move to a target which was step away and repeated this until she was in the trailer and it worked. I then took her out of the trailer and did the same again and then a third time but with the target moving in bigger steps. This was all successful so I let her finish for the day. I was really please and even thought I might be able to work up to her walking right into the trailer to the target. However the next loading session I did she was much more reluctant to follow the target even though I started with it only one step away from her. I did manage to load her but it took a while. I did some more practice in the arena and then tried to load her again a week or so later and she did go onto the ramp following a target but then reversed straight back off and wouldn't step into the trailer at all. I tried going back a few steps and putting the target within stretching reach so she could touch it successfully, which she did, but I couldn't get her to move her feet.
Do you have any suggestions? I really feel that the clicker trainer has been quite productive but I just got a bit stuck with what to do next. She is still happy to do the exercises away from the trailer but she seems to shut down when I ask her to load and loses interest in the target completely.
lady dragon- thank you for your post. The first time I tried getting her to move to a target which was step away and repeated this until she was in the trailer and it worked. I then took her out of the trailer and did the same again and then a third time but with the target moving in bigger steps. This was all successful so I let her finish for the day. I was really please and even thought I might be able to work up to her walking right into the trailer to the target. However the next loading session I did she was much more reluctant to follow the target even though I started with it only one step away from her. I did manage to load her but it took a while. I did some more practice in the arena and then tried to load her again a week or so later and she did go onto the ramp following a target but then reversed straight back off and wouldn't step into the trailer at all. I tried going back a few steps and putting the target within stretching reach so she could touch it successfully, which she did, but I couldn't get her to move her feet.
Do you have any suggestions? I really feel that the clicker trainer has been quite productive but I just got a bit stuck with what to do next. She is still happy to do the exercises away from the trailer but she seems to shut down when I ask her to load and loses interest in the target completely.
mightymammoth
Well-Known Member
just wanted to comment so I can follow this thread as am going through the same thing.
Brightbay
Well-Known Member
She is still unpredictable to load, even though she knows there's a reward. She is anxious (not necessarily fearful... that comes later) about something to do with the trailer or travelling.
The "good one day, randomly bad the next and getting slightly worse over time" is a classic pattern knows as sensitisation. A behaviourist will be able to explain this to you in detail - why it happens and how to overcome it.
Some trainers - such as the IH people - can also overcome the problem by being "louder" - so the annoyance they add to the equation is, at least to begin with, able to drown out the anxiety the horse is feeling. However, the anxiety hasn't gone away (hence the worse some days than others - I'm sure you know yourself that some days you're better able to cope with things that stress you than others). The best possible approach (and one a qualified behaviourist can advise on) is to completely remove the anxiety and make loading/travelling something the horse anticipates with pleasure, rather than something they do to try to avoid annoying from a thin headcollar or wiggling rope.
BTW this process should be easier for you, as you have already made sure your horse understands the process of offering behaviours for reward... most people have to train this first.
Mariposa
Well-Known Member
I sent one of my ponies to Jason Webb to cure her loading issues.
To get her there we had to dope her, and then it still took 45 mins and 5 people to get her into the lorry. Jason had her skipping in and out of the lorry within minutes ( which was actually a bit annoying...considering we've had to leave her at the polo ground before now because she refused point blank to load...!) She still tried it on with me when I got her home, but Jason gives you a lesson in loading and she ended up walking straight in without any nonsense.
He works quietly with them but doesn't take any nonsense. I'd highly recommend him and his team, they are very professional, friendly and patient!
His website is here http://australianhorsetraining.co.uk/
To get her there we had to dope her, and then it still took 45 mins and 5 people to get her into the lorry. Jason had her skipping in and out of the lorry within minutes ( which was actually a bit annoying...considering we've had to leave her at the polo ground before now because she refused point blank to load...!) She still tried it on with me when I got her home, but Jason gives you a lesson in loading and she ended up walking straight in without any nonsense.
He works quietly with them but doesn't take any nonsense. I'd highly recommend him and his team, they are very professional, friendly and patient!
His website is here http://australianhorsetraining.co.uk/
Ladydragon
Well-Known Member
What you say makes sense... I don't mean to sound 'preachy' but it might be that you were moving forward with her and she needed to do a refresher course on basics so you both became a little separated...
With any behaviour 'modification' approach, going back and re doing old ground is ok and to be expected to be honest... Food (if that's what you use) is the primary reinforcer...the clicker is associated with that and eventually replaces it... So when you've successfully accomplished the behaviour a number of times, the continual food reinforcement in conjunction with the clicker is altered so it's clicker every time and food gradually tapers off (intermittent schedule) and occurs only very occasionally as the clicker replaces it... Still bring it out very randomly just to help maintain the association... When you want to move onto the next step you might need the 'value' of the 'best' reinforcer so the food comes back out until that behaviour is accomplished a few times... And so on for each stage... If you need to go back a single step, or a few, or even back to the beginning, bring the best reinforcer you can back to the process to help the 'subject' get the hang of what you're wanting them to do...
Theoretically, if you're target training, any target should do the trick... But it's also a bit like some kids preferring smarties to jelly babies even though they're both sweets... Maybe your hand, or a hand holding a rope to demonstrate 'work' time, or (best one I heard) a traffic cone...
Don't be too hard on yourself... You've had real successes... Even when she started losing the plot a bit she still stepped onto the ramp so she has the association - maybe she just needs to do a refresher series with the target and when that's working well again, break the loading process down into very small steps... If she's anti loading, one step on and achieving a reward is a positive move forward... Maybe the next step would be to step on and stand rather than taking another step forward... Bite sized steps that isn't looking at loading as a whole but more achieving the necessary components to step onto, stand, move on the ramp etc before thinking about going inside... In a perfect world we'll always finish on a successful note - try not to be disheartened if you don't... Wind it back a bit the next day so she can achieve and you can feel you're getting some connection...
I think I mentioned on another thread that we consider cleaning our teeth to be a simple and complete behaviour... But it's a whole list of individual behaviours that need to be learned - turn tap on, pick up tooth paste, flip lid, squidge onto the toothbrush...Oops...just missed out picking up the toothbrush so gotta go back a few steps or mop up toothpaste...
Hope that makes some sense instead of sounding like a load of pompous waffle...
