getting into an outline with a high head carriage? any tips?

sarahsylvie

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So I have a new horse, a welsh section D with a hugely high head carriage. He was just used for hunting and cross country comps for the past 5 years ( hes 10 now, 15.2), and i think he has just been used for his speed and power. Weve taken everything back to basic, snaffle, no martingale and hes ever so relaxed now and he goes into the jump with a little squeeze rather than a huge pull back to say WHOA!! :rolleyes:
He hasent had any real schooling and i am ever so pickled as to how to get him in a proper outline and working his back muscles correctly, his head has lowered significantly and what i would call a proper position when working but when i take up a contact his head rises again and he becomes hollow and his back end goes down, as a result he has zilch bum muscle.
I have tried all sorts of bits (my collection is huge)!! and no matter if its a happy mouth, snaffle or a pelham or gag he will have the exact same reaction!
I am puzzled, so please any suggestions would be fantastic
 

Abacus

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I think what I would try to do is encourage him forward but not rushing or too fast, on a light rein, and then slowly start to take up the gentlest possible contact, as softly as possible while he gets used to it. It may not be correct but if this means having hands lower than a 'perfect' position to encourage him to keep the roundness and softness, then so be it. It may take a while for him to accept a light low contact before starting to pick it up more firmly and eventually raise your hands to where you want them. As soon as he accepts a light contact then lots of praise, as a reward, encourage a stretch down with with soft hands and with your voice, trying to keep the forwardness and rhythm.

Others may disagree about hand position but I have found it to help a horse that has learnt bad habits to understand what you want and find it comfortable and rewarding.
 

blitznbobs

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I think what I would try to do is encourage him forward but not rushing or too fast, on a light rein, and then slowly start to take up the gentlest possible contact, as softly as possible while he gets used to it. It may not be correct but if this means having hands lower than a 'perfect' position to encourage him to keep the roundness and softness, then so be it. It may take a while for him to accept a light low contact before starting to pick it up more firmly and eventually raise your hands to where you want them. As soon as he accepts a light contact then lots of praise, as a reward, encourage a stretch down with with soft hands and with your voice, trying to keep the forwardness and rhythm.

Others may disagree about hand position but I have found it to help a horse that has learnt bad habits to understand what you want and find it comfortable and rewarding.

I absolutely disagree about the hand position, a horse can't come onto the bit with buried hands. Look for lateral bend and going forward first, once you can bend him either way from side to side, you can ask with a vibrating outside rein for him to come rounder. But until he's following you you'll get nowhere. The horse has to follow you, not you following the horse.
 

sarahsylvie

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i agree with you completely and this is what i have been doing, sending him forward and keeping the impulsion there but even the lightest lowest of contact and you can feel his head rise, the minute you let go of him he will relax again.
 

Abacus

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I absolutely disagree about the hand position, a horse can't come onto the bit with buried hands. Look for lateral bend and going forward first, once you can bend him either way from side to side, you can ask with a vibrating outside rein for him to come rounder. But until he's following you you'll get nowhere. The horse has to follow you, not you following the horse.

I should probably have been clearer - I don't mean drop your hands right down, but have them say a little above the wither rather than a higher more classical position.
 

sarahsylvie

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I absolutely disagree about the hand position, a horse can't come onto the bit with buried hands. Look for lateral bend and going forward first, once you can bend him either way from side to side, you can ask with a vibrating outside rein for him to come rounder. But until he's following you you'll get nowhere. The horse has to follow you, not you following the horse.

he bends very nicely both ways, you can feel no difference, he is equally supple on both bends. On one of my others ask slight vibrations on the inside rein and he'll come into an outline, vibrating reins either one of them on this horse ( jack ) gives me the same answear, head rises hollow neck becomes higher and back end sinks.
 

0310Star

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I will be watching this thread, I am having this exact problem with my giraffe (sorry, horse ;)) and its driving me mad!! I was actually going to post this exact post this evening!! Nothing seems to help, my next step is bits as even when she does come round it is like I am holding her whole weight in my hands no matter how much impulsion and forward riding!
 

Pearlsasinger

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My advice is to forget about your hands and his head and concentrate on his back end. When that is better developed his head will naturally be in a better position. Transitions, hill work and polework (not jumping) will help to develop his quarters and back muscles. It will take many months.
 

blitznbobs

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Push him sideways into the outside rein and when he is on the outside rein, vibrate this rein firmly if necessary, whilst maintaining inside bend with your inside rein(still) and if he is moving forward he will have no choice but to come round. If this doesn't work post a video cos it is an unusual problem indeed.
 

TandD

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it sounds like he has never worked 'correctly' in his life....so what you are asking is very hard for him...its more difficult to change the way of going than getting it started.
i dont think you can expect to ask him to round his back with a weight on it when he has no muscle to do this with!

think of it like weight lifting at home, but incorrectly....you then go to a gym and being shown the correct way...you have to re-train your muscles (hard work)

however i expect you will have to go back to the 'breaking' stage....lunge first - short little bursts...with him working correctly, gradually increasing the time..... treat him like a 4 year old (which in correct schooling terms he sounds like he is)
then once happy and working consistently on the lunge you can consider asking when on board...however once again short bursts and gradually increase intensity...hill work once this has been achieve will help immensly.

there is no short term 'fix' for this....it just takes time to re-train and teach the horse a new way of going!
 

Moomin1

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Have you had his teeth checked. Is his back ok, and has his saddle been professionally fitted?

Also, has he got kissing spines, SI problems, underlying undiagnosed lameness, and is he barefoot, bitless, and on any supplements? ;-)
 

0310Star

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Sorry to hijack OP, does anybody think this kind of problem could be due to the bit in some horses? I know you OP have said you have tried loads but that's all I can think of next as my horse is working so so well other than her carriage. I have been working for months trying to build up my mare as she is looking and working fantastically now.. Other than the head! It just hasn't come naturally with the back end :(
 

Moomin1

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Push him sideways into the outside rein and when he is on the outside rein, vibrate this rein firmly if necessary, whilst maintaining inside bend with your inside rein(still) and if he is moving forward he will have no choice but to come round. If this doesn't work post a video cos it is an unusual problem indeed.

I'm not sure it is an 'unusual' problem at all blitznbobs - I think it is highly common for horses to have been schooled incorrectly and not work themselves properly as a result.
 

Moomin1

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Sorry to hijack OP, does anybody think this kind of problem could be due to the bit in some horses? I know you OP have said you have tried loads but that's all I can think of next as my horse is working so so well other than her carriage. I have been working for months trying to build up my mare as she is looking and working fantastically now.. Other than the head! It just hasn't come naturally with the back end :(

If it is not yet there with the back end, then your mare is not working fantastically as yet. She has to be using her back end fully to be at a stage where you can say she is.
 

0310Star

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Do you have any advice on to how I can help her with this? She is naturally very lazy behind, if you watch her in the field she drags her back feet along! I have been doing lots of hill work and transitions, unfortunately I cannot lunge due to various leg issues and I can't use our school ride now as its a bit deep but hopefully will be having weekly lessons at a school in hacking distance from next week. I just feel lost with it now..
 

chestnuttyy

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I would do three things.

1) forget about 'getting him on the bit', instead focus on riding the back end. Once he develops his back muscles the front end will come from riding fro, the leg up to the hand.

2) carrot stretches. Get him stood squarely,treat in hand and encourage him to stretch down to the floor, in between his legs and side to side (to the girth area).

3) lunge in a Pessoa or EquiAmi to help develop back muscles.

All of the above assumes teeth, back and tack have been checked and suitable.

Is he showing any signs of discomfort?
 

Moomin1

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Do you have any advice on to how I can help her with this? She is naturally very lazy behind, if you watch her in the field she drags her back feet along! I have been doing lots of hill work and transitions, unfortunately I cannot lunge due to various leg issues and I can't use our school ride now as its a bit deep but hopefully will be having weekly lessons at a school in hacking distance from next week. I just feel lost with it now..

When you say 'leg issues' what do you mean? This may have some influence over her ability to work correctly, depending on what the issues are.

Don't feel lost - I know exactly how disheartening it is. I have had my mare three and a half years now, and was at my wit's end because I felt she was so lazy and obstinate to work correctly. I then started lessons on her, and within just one lesson the difference was amazing. Turned out everyone (myself included) had mistaken her for being lazy to the leg, when infact she is just a very large strided (and large horse) girl, and it feels like she is being lazy as a result, so everyone has been pushing her on and on and on with the leg, and pushed her off balance. She is improving leaps and bounds now. Lessons WILL sort you out with her - honestly. :) It is a very long hard and frustrating road though - it doesn't just perfect itself overnight sadly, lol!
 

Pearlsasinger

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Sorry to hijack OP, does anybody think this kind of problem could be due to the bit in some horses? I know you OP have said you have tried loads but that's all I can think of next as my horse is working so so well other than her carriage. I have been working for months trying to build up my mare as she is looking and working fantastically now.. Other than the head! It just hasn't come naturally with the back end :(


TBH I think it is more likely to be the way the rider uses the bit which is the problem. Have you someone on the ground who really knows what they re looking at and can advise you?
 

0310Star

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Thanks moomin, that was such a nice post with a lot of positives! :)
She has ringbone, side bones and DJD in her RF but is thankfully all under control and is very sound and very fit and enjoying life :) this is one of the main reasons i wanted to get her to work correctly behind as it would help take the pressure off the fronts. I wonder if maybe she was suffering with her legs long before I had her and is another reason she has got so used to holding her head high out of discomfort.
I am hacking her most days with lots of hills and different terrain and for the last 6 months have totally ignored her head to get her built up and with the right muscles to begin working well but it just hasn't seemed to have done much with regards to her head carriage lol
I am 100% sure that lessons are what is needed now, but with only being able to school/have a lesson once a week as of next week I need to try and work on things while we are hacking too.
 

AmiRobertson

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Some great advice here :) I too have a 7yr old welsh d mare who we have had for 7 weeks. She has never been schooled properly and I have found my 4yr old tb easier to show how to work in a correct outline than her. To top that off she was ridden in a Kimblewick by her old owner when it was really not needed! She is starting to understand but it's a long way before its consistent. Some days she will go straight into it work really well and be really listening then we can finish within 20mins and go for a nice hack but then we get days like yesterday where she spent 40mins with her head in the air whinnying and screaming at everything that walks past the school. In that case I just have to keep myself correct and keep on encouraging her to be correct keeping her forward and working into the contact until we can finish on a good note! And then lots of praise!!! I have also found with her if I release the contact she lowers her head and looks pretty but its not correct as there is no get up and go from behind and she will start to fall out. By keeping her forward and in an even rhythm while doing lots of circles serpentines and rein changes while maintaining an even rein contact and a correct position on my part she will mould to me and work out its much more comfortable and easier for her to work correctly but as I said somedays she clicks straight away others it takes longer. I do find she schools better on hacks however we can't do a dressage test on a hack :) I also find that if we have a bad schooling session and she is being a wally giraffe brain as soon as she gives me what I am asking for we finish with lots of praise and then the next day as a rule she is much more willing. Which is the exact same practise as my baby horse despite her being in work for the past 3yrs :)
Do you have a good instructor? I find my lessons completely priceless.
Also you have to remember for his entire working life he hasn't been schooled correctly you are teaching him a brand new thing which he doesn't have the muscle for yet. Work up the gaits so focus on the walk and then trot etc and keep it fun otherwise you will both get frustrated :)
 

FabioandFreddy

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Do you lunge? If so i'd recommend using an Equi-ami. Has really helped with all the horses i've used it on to start working correctly themselves which then transfers to the ridden work once they've started building the right muscles and find it a bit easier.
 

YasandCrystal

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I absolutely disagree about the hand position, a horse can't come onto the bit with buried hands. Look for lateral bend and going forward first, once you can bend him either way from side to side, you can ask with a vibrating outside rein for him to come rounder. But until he's following you you'll get nowhere. The horse has to follow you, not you following the horse.

This absolutely! The horse needs to drop down onto the bit - your hands should be held about 4 inches aboove the pommel. Any lower and you are blocking the horse. Sadly there is an obsession with falsely forcing the horse's head down and neck round - this has nothing to do with engagement whatsoever.
 
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