getting into an outline with a high head carriage? any tips?

[Goldenstar]

The horse has been " trained " to go this way the fact he will lower his neck when given the rien is good .
With out writing a piece half the length of war and peace here is some advice for the first bit.
Keep the contact when he raises his head not in a aggressive way just keep it level and there what ever he does you follow and keep the contact ride circles loops and do lots of walk trot transitions I often make the transitions down using my voice at first back up by the aids with my legs and body and done use the hand at at.
Concertrate on the shapes you are riding and the transitions and on following the contact be calm and consistent .
When he lowers his head reward him with the voice and walk if trotting give a loose rien as a reward pat the pick up and start again in time you will be able to maintain the lowered position for longer periods.
As I say that's would be my start point.
I would also lunge hard to say using what with out seeing the horse .

 

[0310Star]

The horse has been " trained " to go this way the fact he will lower his neck when given the rien is good .
With out writing a piece half the length of war and peace here is some advice for the first bit.
Keep the contact when he raises his head not in a aggressive way just keep it level and there what ever he does you follow and keep the contact ride circles loops and do lots of walk trot transitions I often make the transitions down using my voice at first back up by the aids with my legs and body and done use the hand at at.
Concertrate on the shapes you are riding and the transitions and on following the contact be calm and consistent .
When he lowers his head reward him with the voice and walk if trotting give a loose rien as a reward pat the pick up and start again in time you will be able to maintain the lowered position for longer periods.
As I say that's would be my start point.
I would also lunge hard to say using what with out seeing the horse .

That makes a lot of sense Goldenstar, I will defintely give this a go with my horse thanks!

 

[Pinkvboots]

Good advise from goldenstar, My Arab was awful and would run round back legs trailing head up, he was the same wouldnt accept a contact i did very similar to what goldenstar has said, very short walk to trot transitions help as do troting serpentines making sure you get the correct bend, also asking for the wrong bend on the long sides then the correct bend in the corners, make sure his bending properly and ask with your body by turning your shoulders in wards and flexing with your inside rein, this really helped my horse want to stretch down and seek the contact and when he does put your leg on give within the contact and reward, took me months but my horse is lovely and soft now and he can be ridden in a nice soft contact and is very balanced.

 

[Wagtail]

I absolutely disagree about the hand position, a horse can't come onto the bit with buried hands. Look for lateral bend and going forward first, once you can bend him either way from side to side, you can ask with a vibrating outside rein for him to come rounder. But until he's following you you'll get nowhere. The horse has to follow you, not you following the horse.

I don't think that just because the hands are low, they are buried! I have retrained umpteen off the track race horses that nearly all react to the contact at first by raising their heads. The contact should therefore be fluid, and yes, sometimes lower depending on what the horse is doing and how he is evading. Nothing worse than fixed hands.

 

[Moomin1]

I don't think that just because the hands are low, they are buried! I have retrained umpteen off the track race horses that nearly all react to the contact at first by raising their heads. The contact should therefore be fluid, and yes, sometimes lower depending on what the horse is doing and how he is evading. Nothing worse than fixed hands.

I agree with this. I hate fixed hands in a rider.

 

[Orangehorse]

I too would ignore the head position and work on the back end first! Respect your horse's conformation, some horses have a different set on neck. A TB is naturally "long and low" but other breeds are upheaded, like Arabs and maybe your Welsh Cob. If you make them too low you are tipping them onto the forehand as it is an un-natural way for them to go.

 

[elliebrewer98]

Respect your horse's conformation, some horses have a different set on neck. A TB is naturally "long and low" but other breeds are upheaded, like Arabs and maybe your Welsh Cob.

Very interesting thread OP and point Orangehorse, I have a mare who was very similar in disliking any contact on her mouth and who is quite upheaded too (cob x tb x hackney). It's taken us about 6 months of really concentrating on getting her accepting the contact and becoming nice and round. She can now maintain a very lovely outline and roundness in walk and trot but canter is an entirely different issue! When we first got her I didn't think her canter would ever be terribly nice and 'normal', she likes racing around at top speed with her head in the air! But we've recently (last month or so) had a breakthrough concerning accepting contact in canter , today Lace managed four strides of canter without resisting my contact three times, so I'm a very happy bunny at the moment - shows there's hope for our dressage and occasional showing classes!

It'll come eventually OP, you just never know how long it'll take!

 

[Wagtail]

Something which I find helps people to teach their horse how to work correctly is to think about keeping the bit still and with a constant light feel in the mouth. If you think about this, then your contact becomes much more fluid because you are reacting and adjusting constantly to what the horse is doing. So no matter what the horse does with it's head, the feeling in his mouth remains constant. The end result, if you do this right, is self carriage and a light contact. Obviously, not all horses will make it that easy! Sometimes you get a horse that evades very strongly. The contact cannot therefore be light because otherwise he would tank off! In those situations you will have short (sometimes only a second or so like a half halt) where the contact is strong. You match what the horse gives you and return immediately to a light even contact when the horse gives. So you see the hands should not be fixed. The end result is to have the horse in self carriage and the hands in the right place four inches or so above the pommel. Then the hands will be still in trot and follow the movement in walk and canter.

 

[Moomin1]

Very interesting thread OP and point Orangehorse, I have a mare who was very similar in disliking any contact on her mouth and who is quite upheaded too (cob x tb x hackney). It's taken us about 6 months of really concentrating on getting her accepting the contact and becoming nice and round. She can now maintain a very lovely outline and roundness in walk and trot but canter is an entirely different issue! When we first got her I didn't think her canter would ever be terribly nice and 'normal', she likes racing around at top speed with her head in the air! But we've recently (last month or so) had a breakthrough concerning accepting contact in canter , today Lace managed four strides of canter without resisting my contact three times, so I'm a very happy bunny at the moment - shows there's hope for our dressage and occasional showing classes!

It'll come eventually OP, you just never know how long it'll take!

Very interesting. I am finding this with my mare to varying extents too. I have cracked walk pretty much consistently now. Trot is, I would say, 60% on a good day, but canter falls to pieces completely. I am just concentrating on the trot still at the moment and ignoring the canter. Whether that is the right thing to do I don't know. Hopefully now I am getting lessons (albeit not very regular) all will become clear in time!

It's true though that it takes a lot of time to get there - it's very much a case of drip drip with my horse at the moment. Sometimes it can be a case of five steps forward, then the next day, two back, then it may stagnate for a while, then suddenly click into place more so.

 

[Floxie]

This reminds me where we started (and how far we've come, which is lovely!) One trick I recall was working on a circle - pushing out with the inside leg and asking for flex with the inside hand, then when he softens bringing the hand back (got the answer, stop asking!) and rewarding him by coming down a gear (walk to halt, trot to walk). We'd work through walk then trot, asking him to carry himself a little longer before resting each time, and then try and maintain it going large. I remember I found it really hard to spot at first when he was softening and stepping under because it was so brief and subtle! I used to stress a lot that I wasn't always acknowledging and rewarding when I should - but they're smart and forgiving beasties! I think the idea was to make it really obvious what you're asking, and make sure he knows he's done good when he's got it right. If you can spot and reward the tiny moves in the right direction I'm sure he'll be desperate to show you how clever her is for working it out

 

[elliebrewer98]

Very interesting. I am finding this with my mare to varying extents too. I have cracked walk pretty much consistently now. Trot is, I would say, 60% on a good day, but canter falls to pieces completely. I am just concentrating on the trot still at the moment and ignoring the canter. Whether that is the right thing to do I don't know. Hopefully now I am getting lessons (albeit not very regular) all will become clear in time!

We went to a local annual show last Sunday and entered Cob Type and Working Hunter to add some variety. Was highly delighted because even though mare was very excited (she has inherited some tb mentality!) she remained listening to me in walk and trot (canter was disastrous but I wasn't expecting any different!) and at the end when the judge was giving out the rosettes he said that when he saw Lacie's walk and trot he thought he'd found his winner but the canter happened:L I thought that was very nice of him to tell me that, shows possibility for some local showing

I find regular lessons very beneficial, especially pure dressage ones. They make sure I always have something to work on, at the moment it's trying to keep her round when I ask for canter and not hollow - very slowly getting there. I worked the same as you Moomin, establishing a consistent trot before even thinking about canter! They need a solid platform and at least if walk and trot is cracked they'll have some idea (hopefully!) of what you're asking of them!

 

[Moomin1]

We went to a local annual show last Sunday and entered Cob Type and Working Hunter to add some variety. Was highly delighted because even though mare was very excited (she has inherited some tb mentality!) she remained listening to me in walk and trot (canter was disastrous but I wasn't expecting any different!) and at the end when the judge was giving out the rosettes he said that when he saw Lacie's walk and trot he thought he'd found his winner but the canter happened:L I thought that was very nice of him to tell me that, shows possibility for some local showing

I find regular lessons very beneficial, especially pure dressage ones. They make sure I always have something to work on, at the moment it's trying to keep her round when I ask for canter and not hollow - very slowly getting there. I worked the same as you Moomin, establishing a consistent trot before even thinking about canter! They need a solid platform and at least if walk and trot is cracked they'll have some idea (hopefully!) of what you're asking of them!

Ahh that's very heartening to hear! I hope you keep posting updates as to your progress as I would be really interested to hear your techniques and tips. Sounds really good about what the judge said to you aswell - disheartening on the day but shows great promise and you at least know that there is a lot to aim for now and some red frillies!

I have only entered one ridden class at a local on her so far, which didn't involve any canter, as I know that her entire show will fall to pieces the second we go into canter.

All will fall into place eventually if we keep drilling at it consistently enough.