Getting seriously fed up with being bitten now!!

If you actually want to stop this behaviour, quit the cuddles, quit the treats, stop fussing with her and focus on a programme of firm, fair handling.
Horses that have been spoilt and babied - often orphaned or weak foals - are horrible to handle and you may not resolve this, but for safety's sake it's got to be worth a try.
The ulcers question may be a red herring - horses with ulcers will often only bite if you touch a painful or sensitive area such as the girth or flank.
This biting behaviour sounds like the playful/aggressive action of a horse that has never been allowed to grow up.
You need to do some groundwork, getting her to respect your space - walk, halt, back uo and turn on command without crowding you or barging; use a bridle or a rope halter if necessary. If she goes to bite you, you need to be quick enough to deflect her with your elbow - it should make contact with the side of her face. This makes the connection between biting as an action that hurts HER. At the same time say NO firmly and them go back to what you were doing. Don;t make a fuss, shout, swear or retaliate.
But equally be fair to her - keep grooming to the necessary only and respect that mares often have tickly places. i invested in a 'jelly' curry comb for our sensitive mare which removes and mud or sweat and it was the best thing I ever bought. For safety, I would cross tie her for thorough grooming if needed, washing or tacking up.
Leave her alone in the field - it's her time to 'be a horse'. It will take time - but be consistent and she should improve.
My gelding - who was the last one that the breeder produced so was a bit spoilt - went through a bitey phase and we were able to sort it although he can be quite dominant and even now needs the odd reminder.
 
The behaviour has been going on right from the start of the loan IIRC. Thread here http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?737956-Complicated-pony&p=13387386#post13387386

I cannot possibly know exactly what's going on, we only have the descriptions from Ellietotz who is loaning her, to go on. However I'm sure that most people when reading through her threads about this horse would agree that the horse has some sort of long term issue and that as the horse had never had a full lameness work up/x-rays/scoping etc... we cannot possibly say the the horse is pain free and declare it to be purely a handling issue or a behavioural one.
 
If this is the horse with suspected ulcers then I'm not surprised she is trying to bite you. You say you have checked her out but you don't say if she was scoped.

It's really frustrating to read post after post about problems you are having when you do not take any advice.

I would not reprimand a horse for buying if I wasn't 100% sure it was not in pain!
 
Faracat said:
... we cannot possibly say the the horse is pain free and declare it to be purely a handling issue or a behavioural one.
Click to expand...

This is true. And in the thread Faracat links to, I too recommended a vetting before taking the horse on. I still think it's a good idea. But while pain response can't be completely ruled out, looking at all the evidence from several threads, I believe this mare's issue is behavioural and not pain.

I know there are people here who believe it's a pain response because that's the experience they had with their horses and that's fair enough. Conversely though, I have had, and continue to care for horses with ulcers and other pain who express that without repeatedly trying to bite my face off.

I wrote what ended up being a 1500 word article in response to this earlier but opted not to post. I basically said what ironhorse said above. I think what we have here is an overhandled-when-young, home bred spoilt brat. On top of that, she's 11 years old and still living in the same field where she was born, and was left turned out there for 5 years to her own devices. So on top of being a spoilt brat, I think she's installed herself as the dominant mare of the herd here, whatever horses come and go. The alleged pain response is demonstrated even in situations where it is not being exacerbated by saddle, rider, touching her flanks or tummy... Everything she does is classic herd dominating behaviour and she's never been successfully challenged on it.

OP said herself, She's the same with horses as well as people! That's not pain. And it's not surprising if she was overhandled and didn't grow up properly. Essentially, she doesn't see a clear difference between horses and people (why should she?) and treats them the same.

Meanwhile, OP as her new human handler is more concerned with 'bonding' and being 'liked' by this horse. OP is acting like the plain girl who is trying to become best friends with the prettiest, most popular girl in school by being nice to her. And the horse, quite rightly, is treating this with contempt.

OP, I mean no offence. But if you insist on keeping this horse and want a 'friendship' with her, you've got to work out the respect issue first. This horse does not respect you. She comes into your space uninvited, dismisses you when she's done with you and does not allow you to do the same with her.

Meaningful partnerships between human and horse don't even begin to come about until respect is established and rock solid with the human in charge. Stop trying to be her best friend, start being her boss and leader.

Follow ironhorse's advice. Go back to basics and teach her respect and manners with firm but fair groundwork and handling. It's not a quick, easy fix - it takes work, patience and consistency. But you can get there, as ironhorse did. The one spot where my opinion differs with ironhorse's is their advice to "leave her alone in the field", as I believe doing this in the past - after being overhandled and not corrected - has contributed to the problem. I think it's probably too late for her to come good in that way. At 11 years old, that horse has bolted (no pun intended).

If successful, this will achieve one of two things. At best, it will solve the problem completely. At worst, if she does indeed have an underlying pain problem, you will at least have a well-mannered horse who respects you and can express a pain response without trying to remove your face.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Please hand this horse back before you end up with life changing injuries, or worse. She isn't happy, and I very much doubt that you are, either.

*waits for thread to be locked*
Click to expand...

It's very sad to walk away from a situation like but it's best thing for OP to do .
It's clear she had not got the experiance to deal with what is probably a complex set of issues and it's going to cost a lot of money and even if OP can afford it it's not a good idea to pour resource into someone else's horse who you might spend money fixing just to have it removed from you at the drop of a hat .
There are just way too many horses not getting the care they need .
 
Well for starters I would stop putting myself in situations where she is likely to bite. Stop messing around with her in the field, tie her up short when you bring her in and keep your face away from hers! For bonding, find her scratchy spot (when she is tied up short!) and scratch her there and talk to her lots. Otherwise, be clear and firm when handling. No messing around with your safety.
 
laura_nash said:
Please, please don't put your face anywhere near the nose of a known biter, that is a good way to get a life-changing facial injury.

Its quite common for horses that bite to then shoot back in panic in the expectation of being hit in the face. Even if you have never done this, someone else probably has. Unfortunately it makes the biting more dangerous. To quote Monty Roberts "What happens when one chooses to hit the horse for biting is that the biting will continue at the same level. The horse will become more cunning as to timing, faster on the attack and very quick to ‘jerk back’ anticipating being hit. The overall outcome is that the biting becomes much worse rather than experiencing an improvement. [..] It is critical that no attention is paid to the muzzle area of the biting horse whatsoever. These measures will simply cause the horse to bite down with the teeth and then exit taking parts of your clothing and possibly even your skin along with him."

Unfortunately I suspect you are right that she is lashing out at you because you are the one working her, grooming her etc. Particularly since you mentioned that she is generally better with you in the field when you don't have a headcollar on her. I'm afraid that suggests that she is either in pain (due to a physical problem or tack), for some other reason she seriously dislikes whatever it is you are doing with her, or it is an ingrained behaviour due to remembered pain / poor handling. Either way it doesn't sound like a safe or enjoyable situation for you.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Interesting quote, I'll have to look into that. I know that the last owners have made her headshy, their child told me that they hit her in the face 'when she did that'. Children and honesty, it's a wonderful thing. So I know that has probably been the cause to her being headshy. I just thought she wouldn't associate the same thing with me but clearly it's ingrained.

She lives on her own as she's horrid to other horses, she went for the owners child as well when they were a lot younger for no particular reason, they just walked in front of her and luckily someone grabbed them out the way in time. Anyone could go into the field to give her a scratch and as soon as she is done, she will put her ears back and throw her head round threatening to bite and walk away to graze again, it doesn't matter where you touch her, I can brush her mane and she would do it. I originally thought it would be ulcers but it doesn't actually matter where you put pressure or touch, tied up, in field etc, she will bite if she wants to, I can rub her belly and scratch all around the girth area, sometimes she bites, sometimes she loves it. I could lean down just to brush her legs and she will try biting and every other time she is fine. The difficulty is, as she is so temperamental everywhere, it's hard to tell if it's behavioral or pain. The owners knew they spoilt her and because she was around people being handled from the moment she was born, she has never known any different. Back and tack has been ruled out, it's all been checked and she loves hacking, she's a speed machine. Her teeth have been checked and done recently too. Is it possible to still have a physical problem if she bites anyone, not just me for just walking in front of her or something? Meaning, when she is tied up, if you duck under the lead rope to get round to the other side, she will do a biting action as such but not actually get you. Perhaps it was the handling, I don't know but I would like to stop it.
 
Celtic Fringe said:
There is a mare in our yard who sounds fairly similar to yours, although the one here is hostile to everyone and will not go anywhere near strangers. She is not nearly as easy going as the other horses in the herd so very clear, very consistent and calm behaviour has been needed so her boundaries are clear. Ironically driving her away at the first signs of unwanted behaviour has worked well. I usually deal with her loose in the field (she lives out 24/7). At the moment she still needs a rug on at night so I start with scratching or brushing her itchy bits which she likes. A growl from me usually works if she threatens to bite but if needed I send her away and keep her moving until she drops her head a little. Usually she will then stop and let me near for another scratch and stand for her rug to be put on. I always keep one elbow ready to push her muzzle out the way but a hiss or growl is all that is needed now. It has taken several years to get to this stage - she was extremely hostile when she first arrived and would both kick and bite when tied up in the yard, but will now accept most situations as long as the boundaries are consistent and very clear.
Click to expand...

Did you ever find out what made her like that in the first place? I do definitely need to work on consistency more I think as I tend to just ignore it and carry on if she doesn't actually get me.
 
my 5yo has just been diagnosed with grade 3 ulcers in the pyloric region. he has NEVER bitten or kicked or so much as flinched when touched, he is the sweetest cuddliest horse and you can palpate him HARD anywhere with no reaction.

unless you have had her scoped you cannot say that just because she does or doesnt do XYZ she doesnt have them!

i dont think you have had her scoped have you? so all the other stuff is a waste of time, stop messing around with her and get her the treatment she needs. she's probably just sick of people hurting her tbh so lashes out at anyone and everyone.
 
LadySam said:
This is true. And in the thread Faracat links to, I too recommended a vetting before taking the horse on. I still think it's a good idea. But while pain response can't be completely ruled out, looking at all the evidence from several threads, I believe this mare's issue is behavioural and not pain.

I know there are people here who believe it's a pain response because that's the experience they had with their horses and that's fair enough. Conversely though, I have had, and continue to care for horses with ulcers and other pain who express that without repeatedly trying to bite my face off.

I wrote what ended up being a 1500 word article in response to this earlier but opted not to post. I basically said what ironhorse said above. I think what we have here is an overhandled-when-young, home bred spoilt brat. On top of that, she's 11 years old and still living in the same field where she was born, and was left turned out there for 5 years to her own devices. So on top of being a spoilt brat, I think she's installed herself as the dominant mare of the herd here, whatever horses come and go. The alleged pain response is demonstrated even in situations where it is not being exacerbated by saddle, rider, touching her flanks or tummy... Everything she does is classic herd dominating behaviour and she's never been successfully challenged on it.

OP said herself, She's the same with horses as well as people! That's not pain. And it's not surprising if she was overhandled and didn't grow up properly. Essentially, she doesn't see a clear difference between horses and people (why should she?) and treats them the same.

Meanwhile, OP as her new human handler is more concerned with 'bonding' and being 'liked' by this horse. OP is acting like the plain girl who is trying to become best friends with the prettiest, most popular girl in school by being nice to her. And the horse, quite rightly, is treating this with contempt.

OP, I mean no offence. But if you insist on keeping this horse and want a 'friendship' with her, you've got to work out the respect issue first. This horse does not respect you. She comes into your space uninvited, dismisses you when she's done with you and does not allow you to do the same with her.

Meaningful partnerships between human and horse don't even begin to come about until respect is established and rock solid with the human in charge. Stop trying to be her best friend, start being her boss and leader.

Follow ironhorse's advice. Go back to basics and teach her respect and manners with firm but fair groundwork and handling. It's not a quick, easy fix - it takes work, patience and consistency. But you can get there, as ironhorse did. The one spot where my opinion differs with ironhorse's is their advice to "leave her alone in the field", as I believe doing this in the past - after being overhandled and not corrected - has contributed to the problem. I think it's probably too late for her to come good in that way. At 11 years old, that horse has bolted (no pun intended).

If successful, this will achieve one of two things. At best, it will solve the problem completely. At worst, if she does indeed have an underlying pain problem, you will at least have a well-mannered horse who respects you and can express a pain response without trying to remove your face.
Click to expand...

Thank you!! I am extremely grateful for this.
That's exactly what her owner said, she thinks people are just one of the herd, she has never known boundaries and the moment she was turned out was straight after she spooked, bucked the rider off and they never got back on again. So she won basically for 5 years!!
That's what I said in another comment, it doesn't matter where I touch her, it happens even when I don't touch her. She was the owners first home bred foal so you could probably imagine. There are tonnes of pictures of her with her nose to their faces while they hold her head there for kisses etc.
I know I'm doing it wrong, I'm not experienced with this kind of thing, and I know that which is why I'm wanting to try my best to learn and improve. The girl wanting to be friends with the popular one literally nails this situation. I even put in other posts that I try to be sensitive to her so that she's happy and comfortable because I thought there was a genuine reason. I've probably just made it worse which is why she treats me like that, the owner doesn't allow it so most of the time she doesn't dare.
So from now on, shall I not ignore her when she tries to bite when brushing/handling? What if she follows me around the field when I'm poopicking? God...I'm thinking about everything I do now, even when I say bye to her over the fence, I wait for her to walk away before I do. :( I just want to start again and be tougher with her. All this time I've wanted to wrap her in bubble wrap and look after her and she knows it.
 
Why are you loaning this horse? The beauty of a loan is that you can walk away. If you want a cuddly horse, there are plenty out there.

Even if this horse has ulcers or some other medical issue, it sounds as if the behaviour is now a habit. If you treat the ulcers, you'll still have to retrain the horse. This doesn't sound like a horse a person not experienced at fixing nasty biters should be dealing with.

The Black Stallion myth of the girl (or boy) taming the horse no one else could handle and creating a bond of everlasting friendship is just a myth; it doesn't reflect reality. I think the OP, however much she wants to connect with this horse, should move on and find a horse with a more amenable temperament. Even if they are in pain, there are many horses who won't try to bite your face off.
 
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Ellietotz said:
She lives on her own as she's horrid to other horses, she went for the owners child as well when they were a lot younger for no particular reason, they just walked in front of her and luckily someone grabbed them out the way in time. Anyone could go into the field to give her a scratch and as soon as she is done, she will put her ears back and throw her head round threatening to bite and walk away to graze again, it doesn't matter where you touch her, I can brush her mane and she would do it. I originally thought it would be ulcers but it doesn't actually matter where you put pressure or touch, tied up, in field etc, she will bite if she wants to, I can rub her belly and scratch all around the girth area, sometimes she bites, sometimes she loves it. I could lean down just to brush her legs and she will try biting and every other time she is fine. The difficulty is, as she is so temperamental everywhere, it's hard to tell if it's behavioral or pain. The owners knew they spoilt her and because she was around people being handled from the moment she was born, she has never known any different. Back and tack has been ruled out, it's all been checked and she loves hacking, she's a speed machine. Her teeth have been checked and done recently too. Is it possible to still have a physical problem if she bites anyone, not just me for just walking in front of her or something? Meaning, when she is tied up, if you duck under the lead rope to get round to the other side, she will do a biting action as such but not actually get you. Perhaps it was the handling, I don't know but I would like to stop it.
Click to expand...

From this extra info and the info in the thread Faracat linked I think ironhorse may be right. I have known a horse with very similar behaviour who was injured as a foal and as a result seriously over-handled / spoilt. Unfortunately a year of experienced handling on full livery didn't see much improvement and last I heard of him he was on sales livery with a pro. I used to ride / handle him quite a bit (I worked at the yard at the time) and he was totally unpredictable, perfect some days and positively dangerous others. He never injured me because I never gave him the chance.

That said I have also known a mare who was very similar to handle (though perfect to ride) and her problems turned out to be an issue with her ovaries so I wouldn't rule out pain, being in pain can make a horse (or person) grumpy generally causing them to lash out apparently randomly.
 
laura_nash said:
From this extra info and the info in the thread Faracat linked I think ironhorse may be right. I have known a horse with very similar behaviour who was injured as a foal and as a result seriously over-handled / spoilt. Unfortunately a year of experienced handling on full livery didn't see much improvement and last I heard of him he was on sales livery with a pro. I used to ride / handle him quite a bit (I worked at the yard at the time) and he was totally unpredictable, perfect some days and positively dangerous others. He never injured me because I never gave him the chance.

That said I have also known a mare who was very similar to handle (though perfect to ride) and her problems turned out to be an issue with her ovaries so I wouldn't rule out pain, being in pain can make a horse (or person) grumpy generally causing them to lash out apparently randomly.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I'm definitely not going to rule out pain, I'm still going to speak to the vet and in the meantime, do a lot of research as to how I gain respect and set boundaries.
 
LadySam said:
OP said herself, She's the same with horses as well as people! That's not pain.
Click to expand...
I have no opinion about whether pain is involved or not in this case, but in general why would pain not influence behaviour towards both people and other horses? (Or put another way, why would pain provoke aggression towards one and not the other?) I'd have thought grumpiness exacerbated by pain or discomfort is likely to affect any interactions a horse has.
 
fburton said:
I have no opinion about whether pain is involved or not in this case, but in general why would pain not influence behaviour towards both people and other horses? (Or put another way, why would pain provoke aggression towards one and not the other?) I'd have thought grumpiness exacerbated by pain or discomfort is likely to affect any interactions a horse has.
Click to expand...

I also thought this was a strange thing to say. Yes pain shown when a horse is tacked up, for instance, fair enough (unless we know any extremely useful horses who can tack their stable mates up!)
But a generally grumpy horse around both people and horses, why would this indicate it not being a pain issue?
I can see a mistrust of humans if pain was specifically being caused by something they did- i.e. rough handling, but in the case of something like ulcers?
 
scats said:
I also thought this was a strange thing to say. Yes pain shown when a horse is tacked up, for instance, fair enough (unless we know any extremely useful horses who can tack their stable mates up!)
But a generally grumpy horse around both people and horses, why would this indicate it not being a pain issue?
I can see a mistrust of humans if pain was specifically being caused by something they did- i.e. rough handling, but in the case of something like ulcers?
Click to expand...

Would ulcers make a horse aggressive towards other horses then? I'm still learning everything... I'm definitely not ruling out pain. Waiting for my vet to call currently to discuss things as well.
The only horses she wasn't aggressive towards were her mum and another horse, both who she grew up with and was definitely not the boss of them, she knew her place. Now they are gone, she is in the same field and surrounded by horses she's now only known for just over a year who she bullied to the point fences got broken, horses get cornered and hurt so she's on her own now. She has been back with them now for a week to trial it and has been fine so far after being on her own for 6 months and only seeing them over the fence. She's now more independent and doesn't herd them/tell them off for being near her.
 
Ellietotz said:
Would ulcers make a horse aggressive towards other horses then? I'm still learning everything... I'm definitely not ruling out pain. Waiting for my vet to call currently to discuss things as well.
The only horses she wasn't aggressive towards were her mum and another horse, both who she grew up with and was definitely not the boss of them, she knew her place. Now they are gone, she is in the same field and surrounded by horses she's now only known for just over a year who she bullied to the point fences got broken, horses get cornered and hurt so she's on her own now. She has been back with them now for a week to trial it and has been fine so far after being on her own for 6 months and only seeing them over the fence. She's now more independent and doesn't herd them/tell them off for being near her.
Click to expand...

I can only tell you from my experience of ulcers, but my friends mare was scoped in Leahurst a few years ago and found to have grace 3 ulcers. What actually prompted my friend to get her scoped was that she had gone a little bit more girthy than normal, but also that she had cut herself off from the herd, strangely and any horse that approached her, she would warn away and move to be by herself. Having once always been in with the herd, she suddenly started grazing alone in the field. It was very strange. She actually went in for hormonal tests, but when these came back clear, the vet suggested scoping and sure enough...
Although different from full aggression to other horses, this was a change in behaviour towards them.
 
Ellietotz said:
... do a lot of research as to how I gain respect ...
Click to expand...
A worthy goal, but in my view a can of worms, for the following reason...

Broadly speaking there are two approaches to training horses, with cause and effect goin in opposite directions:

1) Work on changing a horse's behaviour to what you want and that people would describe as respectful, and
2) Establish respect and hope that the behaviour you want follows.

There are simple, clear and well understood ways to change behaviour. That is the approach I would take. You're dealing with something tangible (behaviour) and not whatever may be going on in your horse's mind. I suspect that is what LadySam is advising. "Go back to basics and teach her respect and manners with firm but fair groundwork and handling... patience and consistency" is excellent advice.

The second approach is problematic because all kinds of ways are suggested, some of which are frankly bonkers (dangerous and/or inhumane) in my opinion. So who is right? You are dealing with intangibles like how horses view people. Some advocates of the second approach, particularly those in the "Natural Horsemanship" camp will advise you to become more like a horse and do things to get your horse to view you as one. Sometimes these approaches will work (or appear to); sometimes they fail catastrophically. That they work at all is probably down to the good nature and adaptability of horses.

set boundaries
Click to expand...
Now, this is definitely worth doing. It means you are clear in your own mind where acceptable behaviour ends and unacceptable behaviour starts. When such boundaries and consistently enforced, it will become clear to the horse too! Horses are much happier with clear, fixed boundaries because they are predictable and unpredictability is unsettling for them: imagine sometimes being rewarded for an action and sometimes being punished.

Establishing respect is the end result of patient and consistent work - as LadySam said, it's not a quick, easy fix. It's not something you do to the horse, it's something you achieve from the horse. On the other hand, setting boundaries is easy and something you can start doing straight away.

Does this make sense?
 
scats said:
I can only tell you from my experience of ulcers, but my friends mare was scoped in Leahurst a few years ago and found to have grace 3 ulcers. What actually prompted my friend to get her scoped was that she had gone a little bit more girthy than normal, but also that she had cut herself off from the herd, strangely and any horse that approached her, she would warn away and move to be by herself. Having once always been in with the herd, she suddenly started grazing alone in the field. It was very strange. She actually went in for hormonal tests, but when these came back clear, the vet suggested scoping and sure enough...
Although different from full aggression to other horses, this was a change in behaviour towards them.
Click to expand...

That's really interesting. I've known her for about two and a half years, only been handling her for 6 months but she has always been like this when anyone has handled her and towards horses too so I am yet to notice anything particularly different in her usual behaviour but I still am going to get it all checked out. I need to work on myself and her though to be honest, especially if it isn't a physical problem.
 
When my mare was randomly off when being ridden, I did all the checks I possibly could to rule out any underlying issue.

With her being generally so sweet natured and working so well, it seemed completely out the blue for her to have a reaction like that and I needed (for both of our sakes) to rule out any underlying medical conditions. Luckily for me, everything came back all clear but I definitely felt better moving forward and going back to ridden work after ruling out all these sort of ailments. It was simply a young pony having a tantrum.

I think it'll definitely make you feel better getting everything ruled out, including ulcers. If it comes back all clear, like it did for me, at least then you can move forward and work on her behavioral issues. I did this with mine and although we're still working out some of the 'kinks' we've occurred, she's made fantastic progress.

I promise you'll feel tonnes happier after getting it all checked out. Fingers crossed for you and I hope it works out okay :).
 
Until this horse gets a comprehensive veterinary work up anything else may as well be a sticking plaster on a gaping wound. She's shouted as loud as she can for years, whatever started it may have been resolved by now but no one really knows and it would be very unfair to try and resolve by training if she hurts.
 
fburton said:
A worthy goal, but in my view a can of worms, for the following reason...

Broadly speaking there are two approaches to training horses, with cause and effect goin in opposite directions:

1) Work on changing a horse's behaviour to what you want and that people would describe as respectful, and
2) Establish respect and hope that the behaviour you want follows.

There are simple, clear and well understood ways to change behaviour. That is the approach I would take. You're dealing with something tangible (behaviour) and not whatever may be going on in your horse's mind. I suspect that is what LadySam is advising. "Go back to basics and teach her respect and manners with firm but fair groundwork and handling... patience and consistency" is excellent advice.

The second approach is problematic because all kinds of ways are suggested, some of which are frankly bonkers (dangerous and/or inhumane) in my opinion. So who is right? You are dealing with intangibles like how horses view people. Some advocates of the second approach, particularly those in the "Natural Horsemanship" camp will advise you to become more like a horse and do things to get your horse to view you as one. Sometimes these approaches will work (or appear to); sometimes they fail catastrophically. That they work at all is probably down to the good nature and adaptability of horses.


Now, this is definitely worth doing. It means you are clear in your own mind where acceptable behaviour ends and unacceptable behaviour starts. When such boundaries and consistently enforced, it will become clear to the horse too! Horses are much happier with clear, fixed boundaries because they are predictable and unpredictability is unsettling for them: imagine sometimes being rewarded for an action and sometimes being punished.

Establishing respect is the end result of patient and consistent work - as LadySam said, it's not a quick, easy fix. It's not something you do to the horse, it's something you achieve from the horse. On the other hand, setting boundaries is easy and something you can start doing straight away.

Does this make sense?
Click to expand...

Yes, all makes perfect sense. Thank you. I feel like I don't even know where to begin, it would be interesting to watch someone handle her, get her out, brush, tack up etc and how they react when she tries biting. What would you normally do? Perhaps I need the mind set of raising a child almost, being constructive, teaching and setting boundaries etc. Although, I am yet to raise a child too! I never let her take the p**s when ridden, I don't know why I do when in hand.
 
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