Getting the right things out of flat lessons.

[FfionWinnie]

I am lucky in that I've got an excellent jumping coach, who does a lot on the flat and over poles. Every lesson I have, I feel like I learn something and am empowered to improve something else.

However I have rarely got this feeling wth dressage coaches.

I'm not sure if it's me, I did have one guy who was really good and I learned some good stuff, but he moved away. Every one I've tried since has really not been enjoyable.

Mostly they want to work on suppling exercises with my cob - she's 6, bought from Ireland last year knowing go and whoa. I know she needs to work on these things and I am working on them and she is improving.

What I want to learn is how to teach her do do lateral work correctly, and other things I should be working on. I know how to make her bend and flex, it's hard for her and it's a long term project because she's a cob and also because she has PSSM, right now it's the best controlled it's ever been, and I don't want an hour's lesson on how to trot a tiny circle round a pole for instance because that isn't going to magically make her supple. I enjoy learning new exercises in lessons but the last few trainers I have tried have been mind numbingly boring and repetitive and asking her for too much hard stuff in one lesson.

So I stopped having flat lessons as they were expensive and soul destroying BUT I am not experienced enough to know what I should be doing with her.

At the moment I have 3 jump lessons a month and school 3 times a week (no arena so all schooling done at the beach or stubble field - possibly another reason why it's harder in a deep arena!).

I am working on walk and halt to canter, on straight lines and circles. After reading the flying change thread I am going to work on canter to walk. I've been working on collecting her up in jump lessons and considering this is not something I've ever done, we are getting it.

I can get her to leg yield in walk trot and canter and turn on the forehand.

I was self taught to ride out of books like Jills Gymkhana so I knew more about white washing jumps than collection.

So what I am getting to with this long winded ramble is how do I progress.

What things could I teach her myself and if I book some lessons, how do I get across my goals.

Incidentally the only well schooled horse I've ever ridden is Fergus the wonder highland owned by JFTD on here. He opened my eyes to the joy of a well schooled responsive horse.

I do wonder about some schoolmaster lessons but I don't know anywhere decent in Scotland to get them.

 

[be positive]

All your work should be aiming towards getting her more supple through her body, it does not have to all be done on a circle or even in an arena, you can do plenty out hacking and also start on the lateral work, as she is established in leg yield it should be a fairly simple progression to introduce shoulder in, doing this out hacking is no problem as you can use anything as a guide as long as the ground is level.
Leg yield itself is really useful for suppling and can also be used to help with transitions getting the horse more in front of and off the leg, LY to canter is great for engaging the hind leg and getting them moving towards a degree of collection, you can be fairly inventive, if something seems to work use it, if not try a few more times then move on if you are getting stuck or the horse becomes confused.

If her canter is good start working on counter canter, picking up canter on either leg on a straight line and then a circle, also counter flexions in all paces.

If you can find the right instructor flat lessons should stretch you and the horse mentally as well as physically, they should certainly not be mind numbingly boring for either of you, if you don't have it get 101 schooling exercises for inspiration, it should help you get things a bit clearer and the exercises are progressive so link together fairly well, if your jump coach suits you why not try a few flat lessons with him, I like to see how improving the flatwork really helps with the jumping so he may be happy to be a bit more involved.

 

[JFTDWS]

Thanks, dude.

Flat lessons are hard - I still occasionally have lessons where I don't feel like I've achieved a great deal, but these are massively in the minority (very, very rare and usually because I've gone into it with unrealisitic expectations!) and I'm very happy with my trainers. That said, I have kissed a lot of frogs to find them and I was very reluctant to even bother trying at one point because of some of the ridiculous experiences I'd had. In hindsight, more research would've eliminated some of the frogs without seeing them, but that does depends rather on them having a decent online presence... It's a nightmare, but I do think you just have to keep soliciting recommendations and trying them out until you find one that fits. The right trainer will listen to what you want to learn and if they feel you need to focus on something else first, they'll explain so that you understand the importance of what they want you to work on anyway (small cirles around poles don't count!).

Always happy to chat about schooling on t'other side, and you're always welcome at Camp Fergus, too.

 

[smja]

I think you need to be more assertive with your instructors - mine always asks me what I want to do in my lessons, and we work on that. He also gives me 'homework' exercises - we run through enough of it that I understand how they work/what I'm aiming for, but I then practise them outside of the lesson.

Could you possibly watch other people's lessons with different instructors?

 

[sarahann1]

I think you might get lessons near me OP (your arena pics look familiar, promise I'm not a weirdo stalker).

I really rate Jane Gilchrist for lessons, she teaches a mix of flat, poles and jumping. She's good a breaking things down into component parts to help you join the dots to put it all together into something good. I'm never bored in her lessons and she's always been good with my pathetic confidence wobbles and though she tends to start with the assumption you know what she's on about, if you say you have no clue or are finding it hard, she'll break it down again for you and explain it another way. I really feel my riding has improved vastly with her.

She uses lateral work a lot in lessons and suppleness is a key focus, as is keeping your hands still and the horse working from behind up and into the hand not your hand holding in. She does ask for a lot in lessons, but if you ask to do less, she'll take it down a notch.

Edit - just seen smjas suggestion of watching lessons, if you're in my area and promise not to point and laugh at my inept attempt at riding, and want to see a Jane lesson, you are welcome to come to the yard and watch sometime.

 

[Walrus]

It might just be a case of finding the right instructor. You should be able to tell them your longer term goals, shorter term aims and anything you are struggling with / feeling at the moment. Your instructor should in turn be able to advise on what you need to work on / develop to achieve those goals. When i first started with my instructor i knew nothing about proper schooling or flat work and she spent our time working on different exercises that mainly worked on striaghtness, suppleness, responsiveness etc. Her aim in the first few months at least was to furnish me with a "toolkit" of exercises that could be made easier or harder depending on how things were going that i could then use in my schooling sessions at home.

The other thing you might find useful is an instructor that does both flat and jumping. My instructor is an ex-eventer turned dressage rider so i've had a few jumping lessons with her as well and when we used to do more jumping she would tailor our flatwork to stuff that she knew woudl improve our jumping.

 

[milliepops]

I think you need to be more assertive with your instructors - mine always asks me what I want to do in my lessons, and we work on that. He also gives me 'homework' exercises - we run through enough of it that I understand how they work/what I'm aiming for, but I then practise them outside of the lesson.

Could you possibly watch other people's lessons with different instructors?

Agree with all of this ^^

I love watching other peoples lessons I've ruled out a few trainers that way, and ruled others in

I feel a bit sad for you reading your OP! Like you, I was self taught (reading and watching everything I could get my hands on) for many years until I moved to a yard where a trainer would come to me (had no transport). It took me a bit of courage to leave that one trainer who ended up sapping my self belief I trusted her and thought I must just be truly rubbish and should pretty much give up riding. Then i had one totally inspirational lesson with someone else, got some perspective and realised that I needed to take control.

Now I've got one that stretches me and my horse, gives us loads of confidence and positive goals, homework - a vision of where we are going and how we are going to get there. ALL trainers should be like that IMO and if you aren't satisfied, go elsewhere

Also agree with the suggestion of asking to do more flatwork with your jumping trainer if you're a good fit and he already understands your horse - do you think he'll go for that or are you specifically looking for a new person for just flat lessons?

 

[ihatework]

Dressage is 'my thing' these days but I really can see where you are coming from. There are a gazillion dressage trainers out there but I can honestly say there are very few I've enjoyed or wanted to have lessons with (although to be fair that probably says more about me than it does them, lol!!).
All I can say is keep trying new trainers until you find one that you click with.
Where are you? Maybe people can make suggestions of some to try?

 

[tatty_v]

I'd definitely second the book 101 Schooling Exercises - it's really helped me put some structure in my schooling sessions. For example, one exercise I really like is to shoulder in half way up the long side to the middle marker in trot, trot two half 10m circles across the centre of the school and shoulder in down the other half of the opposite long side (the book has plenty of diagrams and explains this in a much better way!) My horse couldn't do anything like this when I got him but with practice and perseverance he's coming on well. Both he and I like to be challenged and he works much better when we try something new and interesting. Also, is there anyone on your yard who's schooling/competing at a higher level? I have a friend who rides beautifully at novice and she's been great in helping me progress. Sometimes just having eyes on the ground really helps!

 

[kc100]

It sounds like in some ways you want to learn some new exercises to help with your own enjoyment of schooling....and are perhaps trying to rush ahead a little in certain areas? I dont mean to sound nasty in saying that, we're all guilty of wanting to learn new tricks! But to even be thinking of walk to canter or halt to canter (did I read that right?) and collection in any of the paces is a bit too advanced (in my opinion) for a cob that only knows how to go and stop at the moment. If you were to think of the dressage levels, she'd be fairly low level prelim whereas collection and walk to canter etc dont come in until Elementary. By low level prelim I mean scoring low 60's if she isnt supple at the moment (which would really show even at Prelim on the circles).

I appreciate you may find dressage trainers a bit boring and repetitive however the nature of dressage is lots of repetition until you get the desired outcome; if you hear many top trainers and riders talking, they say often it can be quite boring working on the same little thing but getting the basics established takes a while and is repetitive. Once you have the basics correct you can move on to some of the more fun stuff. My trainer says you can work on the same single lesson for months with a novice/green horse....this is a man who has ridden at GP for over 30 years and has been all over the world riding for some fantastic trainers, and has been in the Spanish High School. But where my trainer excels is that he LISTENS to his students, and he can gauge their style very well; for example I am a perfectionist and would rather work on the same thing to get it right, and find enjoyment in repetition as I like to feel that moment when it really comes together. Whereas my friend loves all the tricks and is desperate to be doing the grand prix movements despite her cob only being at Novice/Elementary; so he finds ways to bring in baby steps of certain higher level movements to help the horse but also keep her entertained and enjoying the lesson. He had her doing baby (I mean very baby) steps of piaffe to help with engagement of the cob's back end to help push through more in the medium trot as he wasnt getting much power from behind in the medium. So they were working on improving a movement you do at novice, via some grand prix movements (well a baby version anyway!).

So I think what you need is a balance - acceptance that dressage does mean repetition until your cob is working properly (i.e. supple and working correctly over her back into a soft contact, with fluid relaxed transitions between the paces), however there are plenty of exercises to try that will help with the basics to hopefully keep you more entertained.

I did actually look up schoolmaster lessons in Scotland (I visit every year so wanted to try and persuade OH to detour via a schoolmaster lesson when we're there in Feb!) - Gleneagles do them but not sure how far that is from you. Looks stunning in terms of facilities and I'm sure their horses are likely to be very good.

In terms of what can you teach yourself - watching lots of dressage, whether it be on youtube, TV, or in person watching a clinic.....watching really helps your learning. Also means you get to take in lots of different ideas and techniques; too many people get tied to one trainer whereas those who are open to more ideas and approaches often become the better riders. When my trainer comes over from Spain (he's only here about 4 or 5 times a year) I spend the entire weekend watching him if I can, I've seen his lessons hundreds of times but each time I gain a new little nugget of information that could be useful one day. Whether its a horse just starting out with dressage and trying just to get it into an outline, to a horse working on the more advanced lessons...they are all insightful and I never get bored of watching. So presuming there are equestrian venues nearby to you, and other livery yards...find out if and when they have visiting trainers and go to watch. You'll learn loads!

Books there are plenty out there but it sounds like you want variety - in which case 101 schooling exercises will be good for you.

And then ultimately for a trainer - keep trying different people until you find one you are happy with. Make sure you are clear about your horse's history and progress so far, explain what you want to achieve (i.e you want a variety of exercises up your sleeve so you can keep the work interesting) and always ask for homework. They should always end a lesson with your homework between now and the next lesson so you are focused on what to work on in-between lessons.

 

[Wheels]

Where abouts are you op and are you willing to travel? How far?

I agree with the others that you just have to keep trying until you find what you are looking for

When I moto areas and could no longer access my previous trainer it took me about 4 years to eventually find someone suitable, I tried literally everyone I could find, sometimes once, sometimes a few times but as soon as I realised they weren't right I moved on to someone else.

I've been going to her now for about 18months and feel I am riding better than I ever have with more understanding of how and why things work. The horse is going suberbly well too so she was worth the search!!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

It sounds like in some ways you want to learn some new exercises to help with your own enjoyment of schooling....and are perhaps trying to rush ahead a little in certain areas? I dont mean to sound nasty in saying that, we're all guilty of wanting to learn new tricks! But to even be thinking of walk to canter or halt to canter (did I read that right?) and collection in any of the paces is a bit too advanced (in my opinion) for a cob that only knows how to go and stop at the moment. If you were to think of the dressage levels, she'd be fairly low level prelim whereas collection and walk to canter etc dont come in until Elementary. By low level prelim I mean scoring low 60's if she isnt supple at the moment (which would really show even at Prelim on the circles).

I appreciate you may find dressage trainers a bit boring and repetitive however the nature of dressage is lots of repetition until you get the desired outcome; if you hear many top trainers and riders talking, they say often it can be quite boring working on the same little thing but getting the basics established takes a while and is repetitive. Once you have the basics correct you can move on to some of the more fun stuff. My trainer says you can work on the same single lesson for months with a novice/green horse....this is a man who has ridden at GP for over 30 years and has been all over the world riding for some fantastic trainers, and has been in the Spanish High School. But where my trainer excels is that he LISTENS to his students, and he can gauge their style very well; for example I am a perfectionist and would rather work on the same thing to get it right, and find enjoyment in repetition as I like to feel that moment when it really comes together. Whereas my friend loves all the tricks and is desperate to be doing the grand prix movements despite her cob only being at Novice/Elementary; so he finds ways to bring in baby steps of certain higher level movements to help the horse but also keep her entertained and enjoying the lesson. He had her doing baby (I mean very baby) steps of piaffe to help with engagement of the cob's back end to help push through more in the medium trot as he wasnt getting much power from behind in the medium. So they were working on improving a movement you do at novice, via some grand prix movements (well a baby version anyway!).

So I think what you need is a balance - acceptance that dressage does mean repetition until your cob is working properly (i.e. supple and working correctly over her back into a soft contact, with fluid relaxed transitions between the paces), however there are plenty of exercises to try that will help with the basics to hopefully keep you more entertained.

I did actually look up schoolmaster lessons in Scotland (I visit every year so wanted to try and persuade OH to detour via a schoolmaster lesson when we're there in Feb!) - Gleneagles do them but not sure how far that is from you. Looks stunning in terms of facilities and I'm sure their horses are likely to be very good.

In terms of what can you teach yourself - watching lots of dressage, whether it be on youtube, TV, or in person watching a clinic.....watching really helps your learning. Also means you get to take in lots of different ideas and techniques; too many people get tied to one trainer whereas those who are open to more ideas and approaches often become the better riders. When my trainer comes over from Spain (he's only here about 4 or 5 times a year) I spend the entire weekend watching him if I can, I've seen his lessons hundreds of times but each time I gain a new little nugget of information that could be useful one day. Whether its a horse just starting out with dressage and trying just to get it into an outline, to a horse working on the more advanced lessons...they are all insightful and I never get bored of watching. So presuming there are equestrian venues nearby to you, and other livery yards...find out if and when they have visiting trainers and go to watch. You'll learn loads!

Books there are plenty out there but it sounds like you want variety - in which case 101 schooling exercises will be good for you.

And then ultimately for a trainer - keep trying different people until you find one you are happy with. Make sure you are clear about your horse's history and progress so far, explain what you want to achieve (i.e you want a variety of exercises up your sleeve so you can keep the work interesting) and always ask for homework. They should always end a lesson with your homework between now and the next lesson so you are focused on what to work on in-between lessons.

this!

there sounds like there might be an element of running before you can walk going on...

no an hour shouldnt be spent on the same circle, you can do little bits of walk lateral work to improve the trot/suppleness/connection but if you cant do basic suppling work in walk/trot/canter then thinking in terms of collection and moving on with higher level work is not only pointless but unfair on the horse.

theres circles and CIRCLES....you can do flexing/counter flexing, LY in and out, shoulder and shoulder out, transitions and gear changes, all on circles so if that is what you are doing then it sounds like the trainers were trying to improve the basics before moving on.
If however you were just going round and round never changing anything then a new trainer is needed!

 

[milliepops]

It sounds like in some ways you want to learn some new exercises to help with your own enjoyment of schooling....and are perhaps trying to rush ahead a little in certain areas? I dont mean to sound nasty in saying that, we're all guilty of wanting to learn new tricks! But to even be thinking of walk to canter or halt to canter (did I read that right?) and collection in any of the paces is a bit too advanced (in my opinion) for a cob that only knows how to go and stop at the moment. If you were to think of the dressage levels, she'd be fairly low level prelim whereas collection and walk to canter etc dont come in until Elementary. By low level prelim I mean scoring low 60's if she isnt supple at the moment (which would really show even at Prelim on the circles).

Just on this, I read it as the horse came from Ireland last year only knowing how to stop and go.
Since then she's been doing lots of jumping lessons, and doing the associated flatwork, so it sounds like we've progressed a bit further than stop & go since then

And I don't necessarily agree that walk to canter is too difficult - my little cob finds it easier to make a nice walk to canter transition than trot to canter. She's recently found a very ground covering loose trot stride but can't yet organise that into a good canter strike off. In the meantime we use w-c to get into a *better* canter if I want to work on the canter rather than transitions that day. That's not to say that we ignore the trot to canter transition - it needs working on until it's as good but that will only improve as the balance in this bigger trot does. I've heard other people remark that many horses find w-c easier than t-c so it's not necessarily jumping the gun, per se.

I don't see training movements etc as a linear progression from prelim to GP - my cob can do walk piros, baby half pass, changes etc and I started doing those in a very green way from the start.

Agree that a good trainer can mix & match training in to suit the rider though, and it's definitely helpful sometimes to get out of the grinding repetitive stuff (I don't find that very helpful tbh ) and have a bit of fun playing with stuff. Sounds like FW wants someone to tell her how she's doing with the things she's been playing with at home (leg yield etc) and maybe give some ideas on how to improve and progress those?

OP, another thought. Is there any BD training in your area? You can find it on the BD website or the may have a facebook group. Don't think it's just for members, anyone can attend usually. You might want to check it out - in my area there are some very passionate people which might be what you need to get more out of it?

 

[milliepops]

PS, I read this:

and I don't want an hour's lesson on how to trot a tiny circle round a pole for instance because that isn't going to magically make her supple. I enjoy learning new exercises in lessons but the last few trainers I have tried have been mind numbingly boring and repetitive .

And thought it sounded like the lesson wasn't doing a lot of

you can do flexing/counter flexing, LY in and out, shoulder and shoulder out, transitions and gear changes, all on circles

this Some instructors really do lack imagination. What better way to turn someone off than just bore them to tears going round and round and round?

 

[FfionWinnie]

All your work should be aiming towards getting her more supple through her body, it does not have to all be done on a circle or even in an arena, you can do plenty out hacking and also start on the lateral work, as she is established in leg yield it should be a fairly simple progression to introduce shoulder in, doing this out hacking is no problem as you can use anything as a guide as long as the ground is level.
Leg yield itself is really useful for suppling and can also be used to help with transitions getting the horse more in front of and off the leg, LY to canter is great for engaging the hind leg and getting them moving towards a degree of collection, you can be fairly inventive, if something seems to work use it, if not try a few more times then move on if you are getting stuck or the horse becomes confused.

If her canter is good start working on counter canter, picking up canter on either leg on a straight line and then a circle, also counter flexions in all paces.

If you can find the right instructor flat lessons should stretch you and the horse mentally as well as physically, they should certainly not be mind numbingly boring for either of you, if you don't have it get 101 schooling exercises for inspiration, it should help you get things a bit clearer and the exercises are progressive so link together fairly well, if your jump coach suits you why not try a few flat lessons with him, I like to see how improving the flatwork really helps with the jumping so he may be happy to be a bit more involved.

Thanks BP that's exactly the sort of thing I need. I started working on counter canter circles and had to stop and check my saddle wasn't falling off on one rein she was so unbalanced so that's a great thing to work on lol! I will get that book.

Thanks, dude.

Flat lessons are hard - I still occasionally have lessons where I don't feel like I've achieved a great deal, but these are massively in the minority (very, very rare and usually because I've gone into it with unrealisitic expectations!) and I'm very happy with my trainers. That said, I have kissed a lot of frogs to find them and I was very reluctant to even bother trying at one point because of some of the ridiculous experiences I'd had. In hindsight, more research would've eliminated some of the frogs without seeing them, but that does depends rather on them having a decent online presence... It's a nightmare, but I do think you just have to keep soliciting recommendations and trying them out until you find one that fits. The right trainer will listen to what you want to learn and if they feel you need to focus on something else first, they'll explain so that you understand the importance of what they want you to work on anyway (small cirles around poles don't count!).

Always happy to chat about schooling on t'other side, and you're always welcome at Camp Fergus, too.

Thanks. Would love to ride Ferg again

I think you need to be more assertive with your instructors - mine always asks me what I want to do in my lessons, and we work on that. He also gives me 'homework' exercises - we run through enough of it that I understand how they work/what I'm aiming for, but I then practise them outside of the lesson.

Could you possibly watch other people's lessons with different instructors?

Yes I think you are right. I suppose if they only see me once or twice they also don't know that I am working on the problem areas.

 

[milliepops]

Yes I think you are right. I suppose if they only see me once or twice they also don't know that I am working on the problem areas.

that is a difficulty, but you should be able to have a discussion at the beginning to outline what you are struggling with and what you've been doing to try and help it. Maybe you need to initiate it if they don't ask? Say something like 'shall I tell you what we've been working on..?' Set yourself up to have a good lesson, rather then just end up with whatever you're given?

 

[FfionWinnie]

I think you might get lessons near me OP (your arena pics look familiar, promise I'm not a weirdo stalker).

I really rate Jane Gilchrist for lessons, she teaches a mix of flat, poles and jumping. She's good a breaking things down into component parts to help you join the dots to put it all together into something good. I'm never bored in her lessons and she's always been good with my pathetic confidence wobbles and though she tends to start with the assumption you know what she's on about, if you say you have no clue or are finding it hard, she'll break it down again for you and explain it another way. I really feel my riding has improved vastly with her.

She uses lateral work a lot in lessons and suppleness is a key focus, as is keeping your hands still and the horse working from behind up and into the hand not your hand holding in. She does ask for a lot in lessons, but if you ask to do less, she'll take it down a notch.

Edit - just seen smjas suggestion of watching lessons, if you're in my area and promise not to point and laugh at my inept attempt at riding, and want to see a Jane lesson, you are welcome to come to the yard and watch sometime.

Ha actually I've had lessons from Jane and yes I have enjoyed them the most. I think I will have some more with her. She works us really hard and I swear as soon as Daisy sees her she falls asleep as she knows it's going to be hard going.

It might just be a case of finding the right instructor. You should be able to tell them your longer term goals, shorter term aims and anything you are struggling with / feeling at the moment. Your instructor should in turn be able to advise on what you need to work on / develop to achieve those goals. When i first started with my instructor i knew nothing about proper schooling or flat work and she spent our time working on different exercises that mainly worked on striaghtness, suppleness, responsiveness etc. Her aim in the first few months at least was to furnish me with a "toolkit" of exercises that could be made easier or harder depending on how things were going that i could then use in my schooling sessions at home.

The other thing you might find useful is an instructor that does both flat and jumping. My instructor is an ex-eventer turned dressage rider so i've had a few jumping lessons with her as well and when we used to do more jumping she would tailor our flatwork to stuff that she knew woudl improve our jumping.

Yes that's exactly it. I know the basics need to be established but yes long term stuff I want to know too.

Agree with all of this ^^

I love watching other peoples lessons I've ruled out a few trainers that way, and ruled others in

I feel a bit sad for you reading your OP! Like you, I was self taught (reading and watching everything I could get my hands on) for many years until I moved to a yard where a trainer would come to me (had no transport). It took me a bit of courage to leave that one trainer who ended up sapping my self belief I trusted her and thought I must just be truly rubbish and should pretty much give up riding. Then i had one totally inspirational lesson with someone else, got some perspective and realised that I needed to take control.

Now I've got one that stretches me and my horse, gives us loads of confidence and positive goals, homework - a vision of where we are going and how we are going to get there. ALL trainers should be like that IMO and if you aren't satisfied, go elsewhere

Also agree with the suggestion of asking to do more flatwork with your jumping trainer if you're a good fit and he already understands your horse - do you think he'll go for that or are you specifically looking for a new person for just flat lessons?

The trouble is I need all the help jumping that I can get so really I want additional flat lessons to push us harder. I really want her flat work to improve and I do school out hacking all the time but I feel held back by my own ignorance.

Dressage is 'my thing' these days but I really can see where you are coming from. There are a gazillion dressage trainers out there but I can honestly say there are very few I've enjoyed or wanted to have lessons with (although to be fair that probably says more about me than it does them, lol!!).
All I can say is keep trying new trainers until you find one that you click with.
Where are you? Maybe people can make suggestions of some to try?

I'm near Perth. I've tried nearly every local / visiting trainer. I had great lessons with Alex Hargie but he moved down south. The other ones I've tried have made me feel totally demoralised although I had one fantastic lesson where I learned loads from one then the next lesson he seemed to be in a bad mood and actually swore at me and said there was no chance of my horse getting anywhere if I continued to do effing stupid things like that. We had been doing a canter exercise and the woman I was sharing with got in my way when it was my turn (I had carefully kept out of her way!) and I cut the corner to avoid crashing into her. Anyway I'm not going back to him after that!

I'd definitely second the book 101 Schooling Exercises - it's really helped me put some structure in my schooling sessions. For example, one exercise I really like is to shoulder in half way up the long side to the middle marker in trot, trot two half 10m circles across the centre of the school and shoulder in down the other half of the opposite long side (the book has plenty of diagrams and explains this in a much better way!) My horse couldn't do anything like this when I got him but with practice and perseverance he's coming on well. Both he and I like to be challenged and he works much better when we try something new and interesting. Also, is there anyone on your yard who's schooling/competing at a higher level? I have a friend who rides beautifully at novice and she's been great in helping me progress. Sometimes just having eyes on the ground really helps!

I keep her at home so not got anyone to offer advice except my daughter who although is a self professed expert IS only 6 lol. I'm going to get that book. I don't know how to do SI.

 

[FfionWinnie]

It sounds like in some ways you want to learn some new exercises to help with your own enjoyment of schooling....and are perhaps trying to rush ahead a little in certain areas? I dont mean to sound nasty in saying that, we're all guilty of wanting to learn new tricks! But to even be thinking of walk to canter or halt to canter (did I read that right?) and collection in any of the paces is a bit too advanced (in my opinion) for a cob that only knows how to go and stop at the moment. If you were to think of the dressage levels, she'd be fairly low level prelim whereas collection and walk to canter etc dont come in until Elementary. By low level prelim I mean scoring low 60's if she isnt supple at the moment (which would really show even at Prelim on the circles).

I appreciate you may find dressage trainers a bit boring and repetitive however the nature of dressage is lots of repetition until you get the desired outcome; if you hear many top trainers and riders talking, they say often it can be quite boring working on the same little thing but getting the basics established takes a while and is repetitive. Once you have the basics correct you can move on to some of the more fun stuff. My trainer says you can work on the same single lesson for months with a novice/green horse....this is a man who has ridden at GP for over 30 years and has been all over the world riding for some fantastic trainers, and has been in the Spanish High School. But where my trainer excels is that he LISTENS to his students, and he can gauge their style very well; for example I am a perfectionist and would rather work on the same thing to get it right, and find enjoyment in repetition as I like to feel that moment when it really comes together. Whereas my friend loves all the tricks and is desperate to be doing the grand prix movements despite her cob only being at Novice/Elementary; so he finds ways to bring in baby steps of certain higher level movements to help the horse but also keep her entertained and enjoying the lesson. He had her doing baby (I mean very baby) steps of piaffe to help with engagement of the cob's back end to help push through more in the medium trot as he wasnt getting much power from behind in the medium. So they were working on improving a movement you do at novice, via some grand prix movements (well a baby version anyway!).

So I think what you need is a balance - acceptance that dressage does mean repetition until your cob is working properly (i.e. supple and working correctly over her back into a soft contact, with fluid relaxed transitions between the paces), however there are plenty of exercises to try that will help with the basics to hopefully keep you more entertained.

I did actually look up schoolmaster lessons in Scotland (I visit every year so wanted to try and persuade OH to detour via a schoolmaster lesson when we're there in Feb!) - Gleneagles do them but not sure how far that is from you. Looks stunning in terms of facilities and I'm sure their horses are likely to be very good.

In terms of what can you teach yourself - watching lots of dressage, whether it be on youtube, TV, or in person watching a clinic.....watching really helps your learning. Also means you get to take in lots of different ideas and techniques; too many people get tied to one trainer whereas those who are open to more ideas and approaches often become the better riders. When my trainer comes over from Spain (he's only here about 4 or 5 times a year) I spend the entire weekend watching him if I can, I've seen his lessons hundreds of times but each time I gain a new little nugget of information that could be useful one day. Whether its a horse just starting out with dressage and trying just to get it into an outline, to a horse working on the more advanced lessons...they are all insightful and I never get bored of watching. So presuming there are equestrian venues nearby to you, and other livery yards...find out if and when they have visiting trainers and go to watch. You'll learn loads!

Books there are plenty out there but it sounds like you want variety - in which case 101 schooling exercises will be good for you.

And then ultimately for a trainer - keep trying different people until you find one you are happy with. Make sure you are clear about your horse's history and progress so far, explain what you want to achieve (i.e you want a variety of exercises up your sleeve so you can keep the work interesting) and always ask for homework. They should always end a lesson with your homework between now and the next lesson so you are focused on what to work on in-between lessons.

No you've misunderstood my post. When I got her, she only understood go and whoa, I'm not that useless that I can't improve on that in a year. She can do walk to canter and shorten and lengthen her stride, very nicely. The last time my jumping coach rode her he said she is getting rather cool to ride now, which is a big compliment from a guy who doesn't really rate cobs lol. She's jumping 90cm competitively and higher tracks in lessons. We aren't just careering around out of control. She is actually really rather nice to ride now, compared to when I got her, but I need to know what to move on to next and how to do it.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Where abouts are you op and are you willing to travel? How far?

I agree with the others that you just have to keep trying until you find what you are looking for

When I moto areas and could no longer access my previous trainer it took me about 4 years to eventually find someone suitable, I tried literally everyone I could find, sometimes once, sometimes a few times but as soon as I realised they weren't right I moved on to someone else.

I've been going to her now for about 18months and feel I am riding better than I ever have with more understanding of how and why things work. The horse is going suberbly well too so she was worth the search!!

Perth area. I can travel reasonably far but I do need to ride my own horse every day to keep her health right and I haven't found anywhere I could take her with me for lessons to as she has specific management needs due to the PSSM.

this!

there sounds like there might be an element of running before you can walk going on...

no an hour shouldnt be spent on the same circle, you can do little bits of walk lateral work to improve the trot/suppleness/connection but if you cant do basic suppling work in walk/trot/canter then thinking in terms of collection and moving on with higher level work is not only pointless but unfair on the horse.

theres circles and CIRCLES....you can do flexing/counter flexing, LY in and out, shoulder and shoulder out, transitions and gear changes, all on circles so if that is what you are doing then it sounds like the trainers were trying to improve the basics before moving on.
If however you were just going round and round never changing anything then a new trainer is needed!

No as millipops has said I've been schooling her for a year and she's going quite nicely.

These circles were just circles round a pole and really she was physically unable to do what he was asking me to do at that stage. She probably could do it now in trot or canter but she couldn't do it in trot back then and we just did the same stuff over and over. I didn't feel doing it repetitively in the lesson was particularly helpful. It was fine to see what we needed to work on and then go away and work on it.

PSSM is a muscle disorder and it made her at that time quite one sided. This wasn't a schooling issue it was a stress issue which was cured over night when I realised what was causing it (introduction of a new horse near her paddock!). I knew it was a PSSM issue because I had improved her to being fairly equal then it all fell apart pretty much over night. There's a fine line between working her and asking her to do stuff she can't physically manage. I do think we are now in a very good place PSSM wise and ready to really progress her schooling.

 

[kc100]

No you've misunderstood my post. When I got her, she only understood go and whoa, I'm not that useless that I can't improve on that in a year. She can do walk to canter and shorten and lengthen her stride, very nicely. The last time my jumping coach rode her he said she is getting rather cool to ride now, which is a big compliment from a guy who doesn't really rate cobs lol. She's jumping 90cm competitively and higher tracks in lessons. We aren't just careering around out of control. She is actually really rather nice to ride now, compared to when I got her, but I need to know what to move on to next and how to do it.

Sorry I misunderstood this in terms of you wanting to progress with dressage - however it sounds like you are very focussed on jumping so I'm not sure what you'd hope to achieve with a dressage trainer? A dressage trainer will have a very different approach to the tools you need to improve your jumping, and probably wont be much help for you hence why you may be so frustrated with dressage trainers! I understand you need your flatwork right to jump better, however you dont need a dressage trainer to teach you the flatwork that will help your jumping; they are very different approaches!

It all makes more sense now, hence why you want to learn the walk to canter/canter to walk for the flying changes - changes for your jumping rather than eventually being able to do a line of one tempis!

When you go down a more showjumping route with a horse, they learn to canter in a different way to a dressage horse, the flying changes are a functional thing rather than something that has to have balance, suppleness and expression. Circles become much less important as you dont need to show suppleness on a bend when you jump (no-one is marking you on that!) and you dont need balanced transitions as you just need to get into canter then the quality of the canter becomes the important part and the stride lengthening/shortening.

Look for a trainer who can do flatwork schooling with a jumping perspective - dressage trainers will just have you doing things you find boring and probably will end up being fairly useless if you want your cob to mainly jump in the future; whereas someone who is perhaps an eventer or a showjumper themselves will have you doing exercises on the flat that are beneficial for your jumping.

 

[FfionWinnie]

No I want to improve her flat work to do dressage... To have a well schooled horse that's a pleasure to ride and jump. Surely you can have both?

It was riding Fergus who can jump but prefers dressage that started my desire to improve everything and I want to do walk to canter to walk because doing that on him was about one of the most fun things I've ever done on a horse. I'm easily pleased I expect but it was amazing and I've not achieved that level of training with a horse and I want to (and more).

 

[be positive]

No I want to improve her flat work to do dressage... To have a well schooled horse that's a pleasure to ride and jump. Surely you can have both?

It was riding Fergus who can jump but prefers dressage that started my desire to improve everything and I want to do walk to canter to walk because doing that on him was about one of the most fun things I've ever done on a horse. I'm easily pleased I expect but it was amazing and I've not achieved that level of training with a horse and I want to (and more).

You can have both, flatwork is flatwork whether your aim is dressage at the top level or it is to improve the horse and riders education the basics are exactly the same it is the material you are working with that is usually different, a potential GP horse will have more natural ability to progress but they all start in the same place and getting those basics in place will make any horse a nicer ride even if it is only ever going to hack being able to ride a soft, supple and in front of the leg horse makes hacking a pleasure and is beneficial for the horses long term soundness.

Good flatwork will improve the jumping, some exercises will relate more to this than others, a good trainer will help whatever your target, I have had lessons with some top dressage/ event trainers and they have never been boring, most are very picky and perfectionist by nature but also accept that they are working within the limitations of what is in front of them, I have found the higher the level they work at the more willing they are to push on your strengths rather than stick at working on your weaknesses, assuming the very basics are in place and they are not going to overface the horse.

 

[milliepops]

No I want to improve her flat work to do dressage... To have a well schooled horse that's a pleasure to ride and jump. Surely you can have both?
.

Of course. Most horses can achieve this. Taken to extremes, one of Michael eilberg's horses was originally a show jumper. Now at grand prix I think?

 

[EventingMum]

You can definitely have both it's just that priorities can vary slightly depending on the discipline eg a lot of show jumpers learn changes fairly early without the level of training a dressage horse would be deemed to need before they were introduced however the quality of the show jumper's changes are not judged so poor quality isn't an issue. A competition horse is an athlete but the chosen discipline will determine the type of athlete. OP from my understanding, and forgive me if I'm wrong,what you are aiming for is a good all rounder which will require both flat and jumping input just not the single focus training professionals in one discipline give their horses. Eventers often have a good understanding of both, I recognise who your jumping trainer is and have heard great reports about him but would also consider David Gatherer if he's ever in your area. I'm not sure who else to suggest but wonder if Francis Hay Smith or her nephew Wills Oakden might be worth considering or Carol Stanley?

 

[FfionWinnie]

You can have both, flatwork is flatwork whether your aim is dressage at the top level or it is to improve the horse and riders education the basics are exactly the same it is the material you are working with that is usually different, a potential GP horse will have more natural ability to progress but they all start in the same place and getting those basics in place will make any horse a nicer ride even if it is only ever going to hack being able to ride a soft, supple and in front of the leg horse makes hacking a pleasure and is beneficial for the horses long term soundness.

Good flatwork will improve the jumping, some exercises will relate more to this than others, a good trainer will help whatever your target, I have had lessons with some top dressage/ event trainers and they have never been boring, most are very picky and perfectionist by nature but also accept that they are working within the limitations of what is in front of them, I have found the higher the level they work at the more willing they are to push on your strengths rather than stick at working on your weaknesses, assuming the very basics are in place and they are not going to overface the horse.

That's exactly what I was hoping to do. I am enjoying getting things correct, because I didn't know how to get them correct until recently.

Of course. Most horses can achieve this. Taken to extremes, one of Michael eilberg's horses was originally a show jumper. Now at grand prix I think?

Thanks.

You can definitely have both it's just that priorities can vary slightly depending on the discipline eg a lot of show jumpers learn changes fairly early without the level of training a dressage horse would be deemed to need before they were introduced however the quality of the show jumper's changes are not judged so poor quality isn't an issue. A competition horse is an athlete but the chosen discipline will determine the type of athlete. OP from my understanding, and forgive me if I'm wrong,what you are aiming for is a good all rounder which will require both flat and jumping input just not the single focus training professionals in one discipline give their horses. Eventers often have a good understanding of both, I recognise who your jumping trainer is and have heard great reports about him but would also consider David Gatherer if he's ever in your area. I'm not sure who else to suggest but wonder if Francis Hay Smith or her nephew Wills Oakden might be worth considering or Carol Stanley?

I've had lessons from DG but not on the flat, just XC, I don't think he does flat lessons when he's in my area which is not very often. I like him too but I didn't think I learnt anything particularly different compared to DH, he was telling me the same things which need worked on (which is correct) and similar methods to achieve them. DH is excellent at pitching his clinics at the right amount of stretching you without terrorising you.

Yes exactly I want a fun allrounder who does the basics correctly and I can enjoy doing them with.

Thanks everyone for your input. I'm going to practice the things suggested and then try some more flat lessons.