Getting the vet, EP and farrier in the same room?

[Heelfirst]

The terms caudal and caudad are both derived from the Latin cauda, tail.
In all my years of practice and study I was always able to conifer with other professionals concerning the caudal 1/3 of the hoof and know that we were all understanding that it was ‘to the rear’ or tail.
Palmer in my experience always referred to the sole and connecting tissue to the underside of the foot.
I would be very concerned if in fact a vet didn’t know what I was talking about!

 

[Penny Eater]

They probably did, but it's not the term a vet would use, and it makes trimmers look a bit daft IMO, especially when as a field, barefoot trimmers are trying to be taken more seriously by the veterinary community. It's usually the Nic Barker/UKNHCP lot who say caudal all the time I believe, farriers usually use the terms posterior/anterior.
The sole is the sole, solar corium is the main term used for the vascular tissue between the sole and P3.
A vet administers a palmar or plantar digital nerve block, not a caudal one.
There's a diagram on pg3 of this PDF which explains a bit better:
http://www.quia.com/files/quia/users/medicinehawk/2407-Vet/Radiology-2.pdf

 

[criso]

Actually I saw Caudal used on vets reports before I'd even heard of barefoot including on mri reports intended for other vets.

For the OP, are you sure you need both mri and nerve block for rockley. There are a fair number of horses there who didn't have an mri however they would need nerve blocks to be sure where the pain is.
Have you directly asked your vet to refer? Might be worth seeing if you can start a conversation with Nic and the vet.

 

[Penny Eater]

If they were referring to an MRI taken below the hock/knee, then that vet used the incorrect terminology. Quite simple, and I know first-hand from 2 vets that they get quite infuriated with UKNHCP trimmers referring to the palmar/plantar region of the foot as caudal.
Sorry for the detour off topic OP, but this kind of blatant inaccuracy from people trying to sound like founts of all knowledge really gets my goat.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

That's interesting PE. Is it because the 'leg' below the knee/hock is really a long finger?

I believe that HF is a Farrier and I have definitely heard other farriers call the back of the hoof the 'caudal hoof', so it's not just trimmers making the mistake (I've done it too).

 

[criso]

If they were referring to an MRI taken below the hock/knee, then that vet used the incorrect terminology. Quite simple, and I know first-hand from 2 vets that they get quite infuriated with UKNHCP trimmers referring to the palmar/plantar region of the foot as caudal.
Sorry for the detour off topic OP, but this kind of blatant inaccuracy from people trying to sound like founts of all knowledge really gets my goat.

On my mobile so didn't look at the mri but the term including the diagnosis caudal foot pain seems to be in common use in vet practices in my area. I have no opinion either way. The ones that don't use navicular which I find misleading as everyone the assumes a bone condition when often it's not.

 

[Penny Eater]

I think so Faracat, I know it's linked to the human use of palmar = palm of hand, and plantar = sole of foot, and anatomists liken the fetlock joint to the human upper knuckle, such as that on the ball of the foot. The equine knee joint corresponds to the wrist in humans, and the hock the ankle, so anything from those points down would be equivalent to the human hand/finger and foot/toe?

I guess it's like anything Criso, terminology gets all jumbled up and not just by the laymen. Agree about vets saying things like navicular pain though, that really can be misleading in early diagnosis stages.
I've got the pernickety out of my system now anyway!

 

[Leo Walker]

My vet uses the term caudal and hes a pretty well respected horse expert

 

[Andalucian]

Vets used it before I ever did, caudal heel pain, common umbrella term.

 

[Ronalda]

I've got the pernickety out of my system now anyway!

Good; pleased we've sorted that out.

 

[Penny Eater]

Good; pleased we've sorted that out.

Well I had.... I'm not just stating an opinion here - it's fact. Caudal does not describe the hoof. It's correct useage is for anything at the rear ABOVE the hock/knee. End of. Look up some veterinary textbooks or online before you start with the comments please.

 

[Penny Eater]

Vets used it before I ever did, caudal heel pain, common umbrella term.

This is quite funny - if caudal refers to the back is it necessary to add the heel in there? The lack of knowledge around here, dressed up as guru levels of wisdom, makes me chuckle.

 

[Brightbay]

Well I had.... I'm not just stating an opinion here - it's fact. Caudal does not describe the hoof. It's correct useage is for anything at the rear ABOVE the hock/knee. End of. Look up some veterinary textbooks or online before you start with the comments please.

I am neither vet nor farrier nor hoof trimmer - I am a neuropsychologist, and I have never had any issues understanding what caudal means, because it's a standard term that refers to any "view" in anatomy. We refer to caudal and rostral view of the brain on MRI scans, for example. Caudal means towards the back of the animal, rostral towards the front. So if you examine the palmar or plantar surface of a foot (or hoof) it will have a rostral and a caudal aspect - i.e the front of the hoof, and the back of the hoof. When I have seen caudal hoof used by vets, farriers or hoof trimmers, it means "the portion of the hoof that is nearest the tail" - i.e. not the toe, the back part of the foot.

 

[Penny Eater]

I am neither vet nor farrier nor hoof trimmer - I am a neuropsychologist, and I have never had any issues understanding what caudal means, because it's a standard term that refers to any "view" in anatomy. We refer to caudal and rostral view of the brain on MRI scans, for example. Caudal means towards the back of the animal, rostral towards the front. So if you examine the palmar or plantar surface of a foot (or hoof) it will have a rostral and a caudal aspect - i.e the front of the hoof, and the back of the hoof. When I have seen caudal hoof used by vets, farriers or hoof trimmers, it means "the portion of the hoof that is nearest the tail" - i.e. not the toe, the back part of the foot.

I'm afraid that's incorrect. You seem to be getting the sole and palmar/plantar confused. The palmar portion of the hoof is the rear portion of the front foot, plantar the rear portion of a hind, and the dorsal the front. It's actually cranial/caudal for above the knee/hock.

When talking front to back of hoof (a front hoof for example) it would be dorsal-palmar.

ETA: I understand what caudal means perfectly, but in correct veterinary terminology it doesn't apply to anything below the knee/hock. This is information freely available on the web, I don't understand why it is coming as such a surprise to you all.

I'll post this link again - there is a diagram on page 3with correct anatomical terms for the equine: http://www.quia.com/files/quia/users/medicinehawk/2407-Vet/Radiology-2.pdf
Another diagram here: http://www.lovehorsebackriding.com/support-files/horse-anatomy-diagrams-01-fullsize.pdf

 

[WindyStacks]

What you are hoping for is not achievable.

Your farrier will always promote the application of remedial shoeing. He is after all in the business of selling shoes and even though you may think he is receptive to barefoot he has chosen to shoe your horse.

Your vet will go along with whatever your farrier says.

The EP will tell you that true support comes from within the hoof's internal structure and that integrity of the caudal foot is paramount; that the presence of the a shoe will guarantee atrophy of the digital cushion, collateral cartilages and frog and thus will prevent the true heel engagement that your horse really needs.

5 pages, but actually this summarises the entire issue. Nothing need ever be added, simply refer people back to this one perfect post.

 

[Casey76]

[quoteOriginally Posted by Ronalda
image: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png

What you are hoping for is not achievable.

Your farrier will always promote the application of remedial shoeing. He is after all in the business of selling shoes and even though you may think he is receptive to barefoot he has chosen to shoe your horse.

Your vet will go along with whatever your farrier says.

The EP will tell you that true support comes from within the hoof's internal structure and that integrity of the caudal foot is paramount; that the presence of the a shoe will guarantee atrophy of the digital cushion, collateral cartilages and frog and thus will prevent the true heel engagement that your horse really needs.

5 pages, but actually this summarises the entire issue. Nothing need ever be added, simply refer people back to this one perfect post.[/QUOTE]

Actually it's not a perfect post; any farrier worth their salt would not sell you shoes "just because." My farrier is very reluctant to shoe anything that doesn' t need it, had he is one of the few vet approved remedial farriers in the area.

If you would prefer to manage your horse barefoot, your farrier should be willing and able to work with you, coming up with alternative solutions (casting, glue-ons, quick-set etc).

Having said that, shoes are not the root of all evil, and having a heart bar on for three months isn't going to destroy the hooves, and will give the OP's horse some time to start growing a new hoof, with the modified diet and minerals to better cope when the shoes do come off.

 

[Penny Eater]

Actually it's not a perfect post; any farrier worth their salt would not sell you shoes "just because." My farrier is very reluctant to shoe anything that doesn' t need it, had he is one of the few vet approved remedial farriers in the area.

If you would prefer to manage your horse barefoot, your farrier should be willing and able to work with you, coming up with alternative solutions (casting, glue-ons, quick-set etc).

Having said that, shoes are not the root of all evil, and having a heart bar on for three months isn't going to destroy the hooves, and will give the OP's horse some time to start growing a new hoof, with the modified diet and minerals to better cope when the shoes do come off.

Quite agree, and it's this kind of generalised knocking of farriers and 'barefoot evangelism' that can give people a bad view of barefoot trimmers, when most barefoot trimmers I've come across (the good ones anyway) will freely acknowledge that there are instances when shoes are probably the best option for that horse at that time, whether that's due to the owner's circumstances/horse's environment/whatever.

 

[Michen]

5 pages, but actually this summarises the entire issue. Nothing need ever be added, simply refer people back to this one perfect post.

Actually it's not a perfect post; any farrier worth their salt would not sell you shoes "just because." My farrier is very reluctant to shoe anything that doesn' t need it, had he is one of the few vet approved remedial farriers in the area.

If you would prefer to manage your horse barefoot, your farrier should be willing and able to work with you, coming up with alternative solutions (casting, glue-ons, quick-set etc).

Having said that, shoes are not the root of all evil, and having a heart bar on for three months isn't going to destroy the hooves, and will give the OP's horse some time to start growing a new hoof, with the modified diet and minerals to better cope when the shoes do come off.[/QUOTE]

Thank you- very sensible