Getting young horse in front of the herd leader?

[blowsbubbles]

Hi all;

I m bringing on a friends young green horse; but we are having problems getting her to go out in front of the boss mare when out on hacks. Basically she plants and will not move.
It's a well-established herd of which she is bottom of the pack. Unfortunately the boss mare hates it too when she is not first so we get a lot of face-pulling, attempted body blocking etc from her so can see why the youngster is so reluctant. I know its partly a confidence issue with the scary world given her age and greenness too.
She will go hack out on her own; and whilst she is on her toes and might stop to have a look she is responsive to me. In company though she takes her cues more from the other horses around her. She will go out in front of some of the other herd members that are near the bottom of the ranks with her; though we don't get many chances to go out with them.

Any tips? should we push this to get her out in front; or not interfere with herd dynamics? Many thanks

 

[be positive]

She should be listening to the rider not looking to the other horses for any more than general confidence getting out and about, I think whoever is on the boss mare needs to take control and hold her behind at times, it sounds as if the horses are controlling the rides not the riders, as she is happy to go out alone she is obviously coming on well but needs some help when out with the boss so give her the help she needs, I don't think it will interfere with herd dynamics if the bossy one has to knuckle down and listen to her rider so she stays behind for short periods of time.

 

[Wagtail]

She is just being a good member of the herd. The boss mare will view any attempts at going against her as insubordinate behaviour. If the youngster has no problems hacking out alone then I wouldn't make her go in front of the boss mare. I have known horses take it out on herd members once back in the field, sometimes with serious injuries resulting. If you want to practice going past others, do so with horses she does not know. Yes, horses should obey their riders, but in this particular circumstance, I think it is going to result in unjustified stress to the youngster.

 

[epeters91]

I agree with Wagtail, ask her to take the lead with the lower down herd members by what you've said she's ok with that. I don't think there is any reason to stress her out by trying to overtake a scary horse that's making faces and threatening her it'll stop her from enjoying hacking.

 

[Cortez]

I agree with Wagtail, ask her to take the lead with the lower down herd members by what you've said she's ok with that. I don't think there is any reason to stress her out by trying to overtake a scary horse that's making faces and threatening her it'll stop her from enjoying hacking.

If the other horse is threatening the younger one, why is the rider of the boss mare allowing this? Horses should listen to their riders, and riders should be in charge, not the horses.

 

[be positive]

I agree with Wagtail, ask her to take the lead with the lower down herd members by what you've said she's ok with that. I don't think there is any reason to stress her out by trying to overtake a scary horse that's making faces and threatening her it'll stop her from enjoying hacking.

If the other horse is threatening the younger one, why is the rider of the boss mare allowing this? Horses should listen to their riders, and riders should be in charge, not the horses.

It is not just about the youngster overtaking but the older horse being allowed to make the rules when ridden, the rider of the boss mare needs to take charge not the horse, it should not be impossible for the rider to hold her back to allow another horse to lead, no horse should be that bad mannered whatever the herd situation.

 

[Auslander]

If the other horse is threatening the younger one, why is the rider of the boss mare allowing this? Horses should listen to their riders, and riders should be in charge, not the horses.

It is not just about the youngster overtaking but the older horse being allowed to make the rules when ridden, the rider of the boss mare needs to take charge not the horse, it should not be impossible for the rider to hold her back to allow another horse to lead, no horse should be that bad mannered whatever the herd situation.

This! I'd be having a few choice words with any horse that was rude enough to behave like this when I was on it! I'm all for natural behaviour and letting horses be horses - but they have 23 hours a day to do that. When Im on board, I prefer them to dance to my tune

 

[Tiddlypom]

This! I'd be having a few choice words with any horse that was rude enough to behave like this when I was on it! I'm all for natural behaviour and letting horses be horses - but they have 23 hours a day to do that. When Im on board, I prefer them to dance to my tune

Agree that the boss mare should be firmly controlled by her rider, but why stress a young horse like this? My 4yo is still at breaking livery, she's also usually bottom of any pecking order. She hacks out happily with all sorts except for one gelding, who for no obvious reason she is scared off and this made her 'shut down' under saddle. The hacks were rejigged so that the two no longer have to go out together. Later, when she's older and more experienced, she can be asked to cope, but not yet.

 

[blowsbubbles]

Thanks for replies everyone; good to see people dis-agreeing as been having conflicts myself about the best way forward!

She should be listening to the rider not looking to the other horses for any more than general confidence getting out and about, I think whoever is on the boss mare needs to take control and hold her behind at times, it sounds as if the horses are controlling the rides not the riders, as she is happy to go out alone she is obviously coming on well but needs some help when out with the boss so give her the help she needs, I don't think it will interfere with herd dynamics if the bossy one has to knuckle down and listen to her rider so she stays behind for short periods of time.

bepositive have you tips on how to get her to listen more then please?

We always try to start the ride with the youngster in front; BUT if something 'scary' is in front she will stop to look and wont move forward until boss mare does. We ve tried numerous tactics, but most importantly we want her to enjoy her hacking and not have a battle.
The boss mare can be held back fine; and she is scolded for face-pulling etc; but its subtle behaviours between horses. Once the boss is behind its impossible to get the youngster to move off; I think she thinks something scary is in front hence why boss has stopped!

When we are behind either I hang quite far back so that she is seeing the world herself and not just the rump of the boss! Or we re almost side by side, but she hangs back a bit. We also spilt mid-ride, so that she gets confident in separating and going it alone. Generally we ll do a certain route a few times in company; then will go it alone.

Due to timing etc we just don't get much of an opportunity to go out with the other horses/ riders so it is generally boss or go it alone. I will try more for this and get her out in front.

I suppose my question is; is should we being trying this 'battle' now to get her in front; or not worry about it and just get her out; and hope with time and more hacking experience we''ll get there. She was broken in in July; spent the first 5 years of her life in the same field so the world is a pretty eye-opening place for her!

 

[FfionWinnie]

If the other horse is threatening the younger one, why is the rider of the boss mare allowing this? Horses should listen to their riders, and riders should be in charge, not the horses.

Absolutely. The herd leader is the person sat on the horse. I can't believe you would consider not making the mare pass the other horse op!

 

[be positive]

I have a similar issue with my own horse, for different reasons, in that once he has stopped he is very tricky to get moving again if whoever is with him does not move off first, I try to ride alongside with mine having his head very slightly in front so he is almost level with the other horse the majority of the time, if we have to go single file for traffic to pass or along narrow tracks we take it in turns so each horse has some time leading going behind, if mine hesitates when they are side by side I can usually keep him going and it has helped increase his confidence without requiring a battle but it does require a "nice" companion.
If mine is allowed to hang slightly back when he is supposed to be beside the other horse he will just take no interest in anything and almost switches off, they are all so different, mine is desperate to be the leader, he is the boss in his field where he feels safe but following a totally unrelated incident has lost his self confidence and it is taking a very long time to build back up, having a battle is rarely the answer, you normally have to meet them somewhere in the middle a bit of give and take until they feel more sure of themselves.

 

[Merlod]

I think instead of putting the pressure on the green one to pass this face pulling boss mare I think you should let the green mare stand calmly whilst the boss mare is turned around and put behind. It might also be nice for her to hack out with some friendlier companions. Sounds like the older mare needs the training more! I have a geldings only yard, my gelding is the boss of the field but when I ride he listens to me and is nice as pie he is so well mannered when we hack out the geldings will even nudge and do things they wouldnt dare to in the field. And that's the way it should be, when I am riding or handling him I am the boss, when he is in the field he can do what he likes!

 

[AdorableAlice]

Interesting thread.

I had a similar problem with my 4 year old gelding and the 8 year old mare. They, plus 2 other youngsters lived in a peaceful herd with the 8 yr old mare being the boss but once 2 of them were broken and commenced hacking out problems began to arise.

The 8 yr old is a most useful horse being bomb proof and an excellent lead horse for the babies if required. Unfortunately she frightened the living daylights out of Ted whilst hacking with him with all sorts of face pulling and threats. She did not threaten Alice at all and is quite happy to hack with her. That sort of behaviour is not allowed and she found herself being put right. Yes she sulked for a while but everything has settled down now and she hacks politely upsides or behind. The babies are expected to lead at all times sharing the work between them if out together or on their own with the steady mare behind.

OP, if you can't sort it out under saddle you need to alter the herd dynamics by removing the bully. It is also worth looking at the bigger picture when the youngsters go out to a show or training somewhere, they need to be confident and listening to their rider taking comfort and trust from the rider not the other horses around them.

 

[AmyMay]

Ride upsides as Be positive has described.

 

[Illusion100]

I agree that when people are on board the horse should be taking instructions from the rider rather than other horses but in reality it isn't as cut and dried as that particularly on a young, green horse in the company of a strong minded herd leader.

From what has been described, when hacking with this boss mare, while she may listen to her rider, she is still able to intimidate the youngster and the baby isn't sure who to listen to, her or you, unconfident which is the safe option.

I'm going to try and explain it in 'human' terms, which might (but probably not!) make it clearer.......

1. The Bosses Boss/Boss mares rider. Is able to reluctantly force the Boss to mind her manners to a milder degree in company but unable to stop her influencing any employees completely as they stay out of how the Boss runs her Office (herd dynamics) on a day to day basis.

2. The Boss/Boss mare Absolute b^llbreaker at the Office. It's her way or the highway, critical, snappy and not above taking her temper out on her staff. Everyone knows not to cross her.

3. The Colleague/You. You work for the same company but a different branch with the Bosses Boss, who you get on well with. You know what the 'other' Boss can be like but you have no control over her behaviour and the way she treats her staff but often come in to train her recruit during field trips.

4. The New Recruit/Youngster. Keen to learn, polite and eager. Terrified of her Boss who is capable of making her life a misery. They know that putting a toe out of line could have serious repercussions. They've learnt this lesson a few times before.

Now, try to imagine that you are the Recruit/Youngster and you are on a training field trip with the others above. You are trying to listen to your Colleague while the whole time your Boss is making snarky remarks, being judgemental, confrontational and is secretly intimidated that your Colleague and The Bosses Boss are giving you more influence and control in the situation than the Boss herself. She doesn't like this one bit and you know it, you can practically taste her displeasure.

Then, a question comes up, it's usually the Boss that gets asked this but they ask you instead. You are pretty sure you know the answer and want to give it a go, you've got questions like this right before when the Boss wasn't there but you can feel your Bosses eyes burning through the back of your head and your confidence goes out the window. You daren't make a move until you get some sort of gesture by the Boss herself that you can proceed, goodness knows what she'd do to you if you don't. It can be very hard to stand up to bullies, especially when they are your Boss and you need to keep your job (place in the herd).

So, I feel that this boss mare is making the youngster unconfident. I would hack her out in less intimidating company or on her own until she gains confidence in herself under the guidance of the rider as it's very hard to learn confidently under such pressure when you are new to it all.

Best of luck.

 

[redredruby]

Brilliant analogy Illusion100!!

Personally I think at this stage you risk ruining your youngsters confidence in you as a rider by riding out with this mare - your youngster won't trust you as their rider if you keep making them go into situations where they are at risk.

I think you need to find a better hacking companion while your friend works on the manners of her mare.

I actually feel quite sorry for this youngster as I don't feel you are being fair to it - surely you should be making it easier to succeed than fail in the questions that you ask?

 

[9tails]

You could be talking about my own mare and the new youngster! My mare is herd boss, youngster is 4. I am all for the youngster going in front and can and will stop my horse so that the other horse can overtake but the other horse stops either alongside or one step ahead. As the other rider doesn't want to ruin the youngster's confidence by forcing the issue, my mare is asked to overtake again. I expect she will get better, but she is being polite and is actually a lot better behaved than my older bossy boots. I have no issues whatsoever with the other mare that shares the field, who probably is bottom ranking. Because she walks slower on the roads, I go behind with mine and they never have any issues. This other mare will also zoom past in canter/gallop for the fun of it but she is a lot older and wiser than the youngster. She also knows that my mare won't hurt her whereas the youngster still hasn't got her "all mouth no trousers" number.