Gifted horse taken back?

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Alyshab

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Hi, after a bit of advice!
My friend was given a mare January 2016 by the trainer that he worked for it was made clear that my friend now owned the horse. He really only got her as she was going to be shot because no one else wanted her. He kept her at my yard for about 10 months before we found him a proper livery yard and then he briefly put her out on loan but after a few months the loanee could no longer keep her the trainer moved as well as my friend so he found her a livery yard where he is now. She has been there for a round 7 weeks now. Ok so my friend wasn't exactly treated well at work etc so he decided to quit now the trainer had said he's taking the horse back which he has and she's now in one of his fields. He is NOT the original owner and I have their name but no way of being able to contact them. I've told my friend to keep her passport as she is his horse. I need some help on how to deal with this.. what shall I do? Could we get her back even if no money/receipt were in the process? The mare will end up being shot if she stays where she is. Also we had her passport stamped with a non racing stamp. Will that still stand if trainer gets a duplicate passport? She was treated horrendously while in racing and she is useless and pretty numb. Help please!!
 
If she is registered on a Weatherby's passport as non racing then that cannot be revoked nor will Weatherby's issue a duplicate as she is now in the ownership of your friend so in this case I think the passport will be "proof of ownership" from the point of view of the PIO and it would probably be worth your friend contacting Weatherby's in the morning to see what they advise, if the trainer never owned the horse did he have authority to gift her?
He certainly doesn't have any rights to her now and I suspect Weatherby's will not be impressed if she has been removed out of spite, they have the powers to sort this out quickly, although there may be little you can do if he does arrange for her to be shot and if that happens it may be better than being passed about on loan, moving from yard to yard and may be why the trainer has intervened if he was not happy with how she was being kept, just had to put another side to things as we obviously only get one side on here.
 
Thank you, I will ring weatherbys in the morning and see if they can help. I don't know if he had the authority to give her away but it's my understanding the owners had a 'do what you want' attitude towards her. She defiantly hasn't been passed about I agreed for her stay at mine so she wasn't shot but ended up staying longer until we found a livery yard, was meant to go on loan long term but the loanees moved back to Ireland. We have three yards here that are willing to keep her there. She's treated like a queen, one of the best condition horses I've ever seen trainer has threatened to take her back every time my friend has thought about quitting. Again thank you will look into ringing weatherbys tomorrow :)
 
Without a bill of receipt the original owner could be seen as the legal owner in court unless they sign an affidavit saying otherwise. The same applies to the man and your friend I'm afraid - passports are not legally binding as proof of ownership.

A court however would look at communications made between them and see your friend had cared for the horse and made her what she now is and she could use the fact he threatened her with removal of the horse if she quit as harassment. Chances of him ever going to court will be nil - so in your friends case I'd be in favour of moving the horse and leaving him a envolope with a pound in it and a note stating it was for the purchase of "name" and date it a few months back!
 
equi said:
Without a bill of receipt the original owner could be seen as the legal owner in court unless they sign an affidavit saying otherwise. The same applies to the man and your friend I'm afraid - passports are not legally binding as proof of ownership.

A court however would look at communications made between them and see your friend had cared for the horse and made her what she now is and she could use the fact he threatened her with removal of the horse if she quit as harassment. Chances of him ever going to court will be nil - so in your friends case I'd be in favour of moving the horse and leaving him a envolope with a pound in it and a note stating it was for the purchase of "name" and date it a few months back!
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I think to change ownership in a Weatherby's passport they do require a receipt/ change of ownership form signed by the keeper and without it they will not make the change, the WP&CS and some other breed societies also insist on the seller signing before changing, unlike some of the generic ones that anyone can get changed, so are a more proof than normal, the trainer never owned the horse anyway in this case so has no rights to it and as a licensed trainer he has to be careful what he does otherwise he risks losing his license, they will not look favourably on the way he has treated a member of staff.
 
Ah I didn't realise but it makes sense being wetherbys and that. It's how my society works too but I suppose I never realised that can be counted as a proof before now! I'll be sure to take photocopies of the original signed document before sending it lol

So I'll change my comment to OP do you have a photocopy of the old owners signature? Was the passport actually put in your friends name or just stamped?
 
be positive said:
I think to change ownership in a Weatherby's passport they do require a receipt/ change of ownership form signed by the keeper and without it they will not make the change, the WP&CS and some other breed societies also insist on the seller signing before changing, unlike some of the generic ones that anyone can get changed, so are a more proof than normal, the trainer never owned the horse anyway in this case so has no rights to it and as a licensed trainer he has to be careful what he does otherwise he risks losing his license, they will not look favourably on the way he has treated a member of staff.
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They don't. I'm in the process of replacing one that got lost in the post but keepers name was never changed (note - "keeper" not owner). They told me it will be issued in my name as part of the replacement process. Passports never were evidence of ownership, only documents such as receipts etc are. That's why if you are gifted a hordse, insist on paying a nominal sum and getting a receipt for it as payment for *****, or a document stating ownership has passed etc.
 
Thanks, we had the passport sent off etc to weatherbys my friend is now the only owner listed on passport, the trainers name address etc is on the trainers bit of the passport so signature is on there. He's got loads of messages between him and trainer loads of messages that come across as aggressive calling my friend an ungrateful p**** etc. I'm going to ring weatherbys today to see what they can do. Do you suggest ringing the non emergency police or would they not do anything? Thanks
 
I very much doubt the police would do anything.

Did you friend get anything in writing to confirm that the horse had passed into his ownership? Unfortunately passports are not proof of ownership.

It does very much sound as though the relationship between your friend and the trainer has broken down but if I have read your original post correctly, this horse does not belong to the trainer? Has the original owner been involved in the decision over this poor horse's future?
 
Personally, I would contact the police to say you are going to fetch the horse and that you expect there may be some trouble from the trainer. Your friend is the rightful owner and so should be allowed to fetch back his property. The trainer has effectively stolen the horse so I would expect the police to do something such as provide an officer to escort your friend in the collection of his horse.
 
No there was nothing in writing it was a split second decision she was due to be shot the next so my friend said he'd take her and I picked her up the next day, yes the relationship has broken down but the trainer has basically said if my friend goes back to work there the trainer will pay for his rent and he can have the horse back which my friend is not prepared to do. I've spoken to my friend and he said the owners do know he has her now as he told them when they came to visit their other horse in training only problem being the owners are a syndicate and I can't find any names or anything about them online
 
Wagtail said:
Personally, I would contact the police to say you are going to fetch the horse and that you expect there may be some trouble from the trainer. Your friend is the rightful owner and so should be allowed to fetch back his property. The trainer has effectively stolen the horse so I would expect the police to do something such as provide an officer to escort your friend in the collection of his horse.
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Ok, I'm going to contact weatherbys in a minute if they can't do anything I will ring the police and say that and we will just have to go and get her. The trainer is away in Ireland at the moment though is it a good idea to go while he's not there or should we wait till he is back?
 
eggs said:
I very much doubt the police would do anything.

Did you friend get anything in writing to confirm that the horse had passed into his ownership? Unfortunately passports are not proof of ownership.

It does very much sound as though the relationship between your friend and the trainer has broken down but if I have read your original post correctly, this horse does not belong to the trainer? Has the original owner been involved in the decision over this poor horse's future?
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No there was nothing in writing it was a split second decision she was due to be shot the next so my friend said he'd take her and I picked her up the next day, yes the relationship has broken down but the trainer has basically said if my friend goes back to work there the trainer will pay for his rent and he can have the horse back which my friend is not prepared to do. I've spoken to my friend and he said the owners do know he has her now as he told them when they came to visit their other horse in training only problem being the owners are a syndicate and I can't find any names or anything about them online
 
Alyshab said:
No there was nothing in writing it was a split second decision she was due to be shot the next so my friend said he'd take her and I picked her up the next day, yes the relationship has broken down but the trainer has basically said if my friend goes back to work there the trainer will pay for his rent and he can have the horse back which my friend is not prepared to do. I've spoken to my friend and he said the owners do know he has her now as he told them when they came to visit their other horse in training only problem being the owners are a syndicate and I can't find any names or anything about them online
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The syndicate will be registered with Weatherby's as owners but the trainer may be part of the syndicate so in theory may have part owned her, I still think Weatherby's will not have just swapped ownership without some authorisation from the former owners and will assist if they can, a passport is not normally proof of ownership but if a change of ownership form was filled in by the keeper/ owner before the name was changed that form is proof that the transaction/ sale took place so in some circumstances will be.
 
Alyshab said:
Ok, I'm going to contact weatherbys in a minute if they can't do anything I will ring the police and say that and we will just have to go and get her. The trainer is away in Ireland at the moment though is it a good idea to go while he's not there or should we wait till he is back?
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If anything, I would think it would be easier if he isn't there. Once he comes back what's to stop him arranging for her to be shot? How did he take her back? I presume he just came and stole her?
 
If the trainer isn't there right now, go get the horse without delay. It's your friend's horse and it has been stolen, go with a trailer/box/headcollar/bucket of food to fetch it back and don't tell anyone on the trainers yard that you're coming. Don't faff about while you're there just get it loaded and off the yard, you can park up round the corner to put boots on it if you want. Don't go public with where the horse is going, give it a different "everyday" name, put a fly rug on it and a mask that covers the nose if it's got a white face, plus those new fly leg things if it's got white legs, to minimize the chance of the trainer spotting it in a field and causing your friend trouble (or move it to a yard where the fields aren't visible from the road, or turn it out during darkness hours). And have it freeze branded, it's gone out of fashion in recent years, but it's a very obvious and visible "hands off, it's mine".
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
If the trainer isn't there right now, go get the horse without delay. It's your friend's horse and it has been stolen, go with a trailer/box/headcollar/bucket of food to fetch it back and don't tell anyone on the trainers yard that you're coming. Don't faff about while you're there just get it loaded and off the yard, you can park up round the corner to put boots on it if you want. Don't go public with where the horse is going, give it a different "everyday" name, put a fly rug on it and a mask that covers the nose if it's got a white face, plus those new fly leg things if it's got white legs, to minimize the chance of the trainer spotting it in a field and causing your friend trouble (or move it to a yard where the fields aren't visible from the road, or turn it out during darkness hours). And have it freeze branded, it's gone out of fashion in recent years, but it's a very obvious and visible "hands off, it's mine".
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Excellent advice!
 
I hope you have some joy with Weatherbys and a favourable outcome
I doubt the police would become involved as I am sure they would say *Its a civil case*
Probably a reasonable idea to go and collect the horse with any documentation for the return trip, then find a *green field* to keep it whilst the dust settles and any action takes place or if trouble is expected

Failing that I would consider going back and working for the trainer with a guarantee that I obtained a written receipt for the horse of a nominal sum, once that receipt was in my hand I would load the horse and leave

I would also look closely into the syndicate arrangement and find out exactly who and what this entails (this is outside of my knowledge)

I hope this situation has a happy outcome as from the post it comes across as a bit of blackmailing going on with the trainer giving with one hand and taking it back with the other
 
OP, I had a very similar experience to your friend with my mare, who came from a harness racing yard.

She was given to me for an extremely low token sum, as she was useless for racing and at the time deemed unrideable, though for some reason she clicked with me. We signed the change of ownership papers, etc, and I was given her passport and breeder's papers and whatnot. The owner promised me that the papers we had signed would be sent to Svensk Travsport (swedish racing syndicate) and all I had to do was sit back and wait for a letter in the post informing me that I was the new owner. Naively because we had signed change of ownership papers, I never thought to ask for a bill of sale. Silly silly me.

About once a month I'd ring the former owner and said no letter had turned up and they lied flat out and told me 'oh it always takes ST forever to get these things done.' In the end I rang ST myself and they told me they had never recieved any change of ownership papers - and that without a bill of sale they couldn't change ownership to me. At that point I rang the former owner and that's when they started to block my calls and ignore my messages. I contacted a solicitor who told me the case would be tricky and I would need to provide a lot of evidence that I had been the horse's sole carer the last few months, with evidence of farrier and vets bills, stabling, etc. It was all spinning out of control and I couldn't get the owner to talk to me.

In the end, after months of fretting and feeling like a prize idiot who could lose her horse at any moment, what worked was to take matters into my own hands. I posted what had happened on the former owner's Facebook group for everyone to see, and threatened to post again when it was removed, but didn't have to. One week later a new change of ownership document found its way to ST and my horse was legally mine. I've learned NEVER to be that trusting again.

However - people who pull stunts like this known that they are in the wrong and trust you will not put up a fight. That horse belongs to your friend, and he should take it, and out the trainer as well for his behaviour!
 
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