Ginny Post Script

Ambers Echo

Ambers Echo

Still wittering on
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Unexpected conversation with another livery today - an extremely experienced horse-woman. Her horses are in the same field as mine and she spends a lot of time just hanging out in the fields with her horses and giving scratches and cuddles to any others who wander over. She has not been on the yard long so I had never talked to her about Ginny. We rarely crossed paths as work different hours. Anyway she said she developed a real soft spot for Ginny who often ambled over to say hello when she was in there. Then one day out of absolutely nowhere and with no trigger at all, Ginny launched herself at her, mouth wide open to bite then swung round to double barrel her. Exactly as she had done to Izzy a few weeks previously. She was going to talk to me about it but then heard from another livery that Ginny was being PTS so she never did.

I feel so much better about the decision now. I had a nagging doubt that I had left stones un-turned. But she was not just in pain/distress but also clearly dangerous at times, albeit intermittently. So I believe now that whatever was going on was getting worse and PTS was inevitable in the end so giving her more time would have been cruel for her and dangerous for me and Katie. Poor Ginny. I'll never know what was going on but something obviously was.
 
I'm glad you have found peace of mind with your decision, it's never an easy decision to make even when the facts are clear cut and even harder when they are not.
 
Tiddlypom said:
I have to say that I wouldn't have been happy that another owner, however experienced she may be (or thinks she is) was taking it upon herself to fuss over unknown horses in a field without permission. She was lucky not to get seriously hurt.
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I tend to agree with this and would also have thought that she should have told you when it happened. I am sure that you made the right decision, any change in personality is always something to be taken seriously. My older mare went in January of this year, having lost her friend two months earlier, she had cushings, which had started to affect her personality in the autumn, by January she had shut down and had become "a horse" rather than herself, if that makes sense. We had made the decision that she was too unhappy to continue, she then became ataxic, which confirmed our decision. I m sure that you did the right thing for your horse, even if it didn't feel good for you
 
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Just to have some balance here and not to lead some people to think that unusual and especially aggressive behaviour necessarily will mean their horse has to be PTS. Sometimes the outcome can be much happier than it was for the OP and her pony.

My horse presented with extremely dangerous and aggressive behaviour intermittently and out of nowhere late last winter. She attacked myself, my son and my husband on 3 separate occasions when we entered the field and approached her. Totally out of character after owning her for 8 years. She was so unpredictable and dangerous my vet wasn't even prepared to risk sanctioning traveling her to the veterinary hospital. After extensive veterinary investigations and treatment she is now back to her normal self and coming back into full work. In her case it transpired that she was actually extremely and seriously unwell at that time and despite being very stoical sort she was screaming at us to listen to her - we did thank goodness - she is now back to one of the most even and sweet natured horses I have ever been privileged enough to own.
 
Well the most obvious initial results were severe anemia and also wildly varying white cell counts - every investigation possible to find the reason and treatment option was tried. My own vet, experts in the field in the UK and the Irish Equine Centre now feel we might never know exactly what was wrong with her.

For several months there wasn't any response to many different treatments and the outlook was grim, but slowly her red cell count started to improve and just a month ago her white cell count has also started to normalise, not quite there yet but we are hoping this weeks blood tests will still be going in the right direction. She is now back in fittening work and 100 per cent sound (she was slightly off in all paces initially but almost definitely that was just associated with generally being very poorly and simply hadn't the energy to do anything much at all.

I just wanted people to realise that unusual aggressive behavior can, and in many cases does , have so many reasons that are far from a PTS death sentence.
 
The aggressive behaviour was (I believe) just another sign that whatever her underlying issue was was getting worse. If I could have fixed her then of course I would have done. She may have been screaming at us to listen but that does not really help if despite our best efforts we couldn't work out what was wrong and did not know how to help her.

I am very glad you have had a happier ending.
 
ester said:
I'm genuinely sure people realise that, but don't know how helpful it is to point it out on someone's thread when they have just made that decision and did have many veterinary investigations.
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I think it is easy to assume when we read information on the internet, in particular when it relates to equines, that everybody has the same knowledge and experience as one might have oneself. And in particular on a thread that is about a horse with aggressive behaviour being PTS it is very important IMHO to share experience that illustrates this is not always the case with sick and even injured horses.

Their behaviour when in extreme distress and/or pain can be very dangerous and challenging but not always a definitive indicator that PTS is the only option. That was my point and if you have issue with me making it on a thread that is specifically about that point then there isn't much I can do about that to be honest.
 
I've seen signs of horses which are sick and hiding it, over many years. The first is that the other horses in the herd reject the sick horse and push it away. The second is that it chooses to be alone and is often alone when it didn't used to be. The third is a marked change in aggression, either towards humans or to other horses.

AE I'm glad that you have found more information that suggests you were right to let Amber to when you couldn't find the reason for her problems. I didn't doubt it myself after the information you gave.



PS. I also don't have any issue with the idea of anyone on a livery yard wanting to spend time hanging out in the field with their own horse, or mine if it happens to live in the same field, as long as they were not giving titbits.
 
MrsJingle said:
Their behaviour when in extreme distress and/or pain can be very dangerous and challenging but not always a definitive indicator that PTS is the only option. That was my point and if you have issue with me making it on a thread that is specifically about that point then there isn't much I can do about that to be honest.
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I don't think anyone ever suggested anywhere on this forum that PTS is the only option for a horse behaving aggressively and this particular case has been widely discussed previously. If you can't see that your post might come across a bit insensitive after a recent PTS decision there's probably not much I can do about that either.
You have already made your feelings about the situation quite clear on previous threads.
 
ester said:
I don't think anyone ever suggested anywhere on this forum that PTS is the only option for a horse behaving aggressively and this particular case has been widely discussed previously. If you can't see that your post might come across a bit insensitive after a recent PTS decision there's probably not much I can do about that either.
You have already made your feelings about the situation quite clear on previous threads.
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I must remember to do my utmost to check through all archives and previous posts on any topics before I have the audacity to comment on the same topic should it ever be mentioned again. What a ridiculous statement to make on an open internet forum.

You assume too much if you think anything I have written anywhere on this thread, any other thread at any other time, or indeed what I have written today has clarified my feeling on this or any other topic frankly! I can assure you it most certainly has not, and nor was it intended to.
 
I don’t think mrs Jingle was posting to be as aggressive as is being made out, however we do have to think about what gets brought up in search engines. I know when I google loads of threads come up from people with similar experiences from HHO forum. Also this is a new subject brought up by the owner after the fact, it wasn’t discussed when the horse was still alive, so it isn’t really insensitive to bring it up when it was the owner who actually posted it as a thread on an open forum.

Aggression can be for multiple reasons, pain, Illness, fear or just because a horse is an aggressive type, from what I remember this horse wasn’t known for having the nicest of temperaments from the beginning. It is out of pain/distress/fear etc whatever the reason for it being the way it was. If every avenue is explored and there is nothing left to try then fair enough, if there were options available that didn’t suit or weren’t worth pursuing then it is the owners call to PTS but going on about things after the fact doesn’t solve anything long term.

I still can’t talk about my boys recent PTS and the situation surrounding it, it’s still too raw and actually takes my breath from me, we were together a long time and had such a bond. I certainly couldn’t have this type of thread about it at present.
 
I used to own a very sweet TBxWelshD mare whose behaviour became increasingly erratic and she was getting more and more challenging to handle, particularly when coming in to the stable in the evening. Sis and I had both come, separately to the conclusion that we would have to pts, after many vet visits. Then we changed her diet and over the course of a week, her behaviour changed totally. So no, I don't think any-one thinks that the automatic answer to an aggressive horse is pts, although that might depend on the level of aggression.

AE, I know exactly what you mean about second guessing your decision. I think, even when it has been a dire emergency, I have spent ages afterwards, wondering what else could have been done. The answer, realistically is 'nothing'. You (and I) made the best decision with the information available to us at the time.
 
MrsJingle said:
I must remember to do my utmost to check through all archives and previous posts on any topics before I have the audacity to comment on the same topic should it ever be mentioned again. What a ridiculous statement to make on an open internet forum.

You assume too much if you think anything I have written anywhere on this thread, any other thread at any other time, or indeed what I have written today has clarified my feeling on this or any other topic frankly! I can assure you it most certainly has not, and nor was it intended to.
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How about you just stop following AE about writing nasty snide posts? Its not even like you really bother to hide the fact that you come here to make spiteful comments to her :rolleyes:
 
You really are a rather unpleasant and nasty piece of work aren't you?

This is the second time you have attacked me on this forum when I have posted a view that for some reason you and a few of your clique choose to perceive my opinion as a view point that in some way reflects badly on the OP, ...as to following that person about and coming on here to make comments about them, I have never once made a comment spiteful or snide to OP or anyone else on this forum if you are choosing to defend and for your information I have been on this forum for many more years than either you or the OP - I may well have posted an opinion on this thread, or other threads over the years that dont agree with your notion of what I should be posting. but that does not make my opinion and posts any less valid than yours my dear.

I have to say that the joint attack by some H&H members does make me wonder exactly WHAT you think the OP (who I dont know from Adam and actually dont give a damn what she does in her 'real' life) is being accused of and why you choose to interpret any post that for your own reasons you feel is in someway critical of her, as your signal to leap in and bully and seek to intimidate another forum member? Pots and kettles springs to mind. Kindly amuse yourself by seeking out someone else to troll and quit responding to my posts in such an aggressive and inflammatory manner.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/ginny-post-script.770295/#lJSP8W7zkT549qkH.99
Leo Walker said:
How about you just stop following AE about writing nasty snide posts? Its not even like you really bother to hide the fact that you come here to make spiteful comments to her :rolleyes:
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MrsJingle said:
I think it is easy to assume when we read information on the internet, in particular when it relates to equines, that everybody has the same knowledge and experience as one might have oneself. And in particular on a thread that is about a horse with aggressive behaviour being PTS it is very important IMHO to share experience that illustrates this is not always the case with sick and even injured horses.

Their behaviour when in extreme distress and/or pain can be very dangerous and challenging but not always a definitive indicator that PTS is the only option. That was my point and if you have issue with me making it on a thread that is specifically about that point then there isn't much I can do about that to be honest.
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The problem is, this isn't a generic post about whether any horses with behavioural changes can be helped or not.
This is a very specific thread about one horse that had extensive investigations.
So your observations or messages into the ether aren't relevant, or helpful.
Start your own thread to share your experiences if you wish.

I'm sure you'll issue the same insults as you did to LW now but it's water off a ducks back tbh, have some compassion for the OP who tried hard to help a pony that seemed to be really suffering.
 
OP, I hope you feel vindicated in your decision, it was your's and your's alone to make in light of the information you and your vets had although I'm surprised the other livery didn't let you know about her experience. I suspect many of the comments here would have been very different if you, Izzy or Katie had been seriously injured by Ginny, for me, as a parent, such a risk would be unacceptable. I hope you and your girls enjoy the horses and ponies you now have.
 
ycbm said:
I've seen signs of horses which are sick and hiding it, over many years. The first is that the other horses in the herd reject the sick horse and push it away. The second is that it chooses to be alone and is often alone when it didn't used to be. The third is a marked change in aggression, either towards humans or to other horses.
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Ginny was bullied in the field from day 1. So much so that for a while I had her on her own. Gradually Amber accepted her and ended up being quite protective over her. But I did sometimes wonder whether other horses sensed vulnerability from the start. Seems likely given how things turned out.
 
I'm not sure why she did not tell me - I guess she did not see the need given Ginny was being PTS. Perhaps she thought it would upset me whereas actually it would really have helped. I made excuses for Ginny after she went for Izzy - she had just come out of Leahurst and seemed traumatised and Izzy was in her stable trying to rug her so there was a trigger. But I was clear in my own mind that a repeat of that behaviour would indicate a level of risk I could not take. So the decision would have been simpler if I had known. I think she was trying to be kind or sensitive.

I don't mind people petting my horses - they are all quite people oriented and I think it is useful that they are used to being handled by others too.
 
thats a good point, animals seem to know much more than us, sometimes a bitch will ignore a puppy and owners hand rear it only to find that it passes away or if it does survive it may always be sickly and weak. i suppose in the wild it is survival of the fittest ......
 
MrsJingle said:
You really are a rather unpleasant and nasty piece of work aren't you?

This is the second time you have attacked me on this forum when I have posted a view that for some reason you and a few of your clique choose to perceive my opinion as a view point that in some way reflects badly on the OP, ...as to following that person about and coming on here to make comments about them, I have never once made a comment spiteful or snide to OP or anyone else on this forum if you are choosing to defend and for your information I have been on this forum for many more years than either you or the OP - I may well have posted an opinion on this thread, or other threads over the years that dont agree with your notion of what I should be posting. but that does not make my opinion and posts any less valid than yours my dear.

I have to say that the joint attack by some H&H members does make me wonder exactly WHAT you think the OP (who I dont know from Adam and actually dont give a damn what she does in her 'real' life) is being accused of and why you choose to interpret any post that for your own reasons you feel is in someway critical of her, as your signal to leap in and bully and seek to intimidate another forum member? Pots and kettles springs to mind. Kindly amuse yourself by seeking out someone else to troll and quit responding to my posts in such an aggressive and inflammatory manner.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/ginny-post-script.770295/#lJSP8W7zkT549qkH.99
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in the last year nearly 50% of your total posts have been jibes at AE. So yes you will get pulled for it every single time you do it dear.
 
EventingMum said:
I hope you and your girls enjoy the horses and ponies you now have.
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Dolly is a sweetheart. I heard Katie say yesterday that it was nice to have a pony she could spend time in the stable with and fuss over. She has not mentioned Ginny but I noticed that the day we brought Dolly home she found Ginny's fleece stable rug that has her name embroidered on it and has been sleeping under it ever since. So I think she is feeling conflicted but that's understandable.
 
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