Girthiness and headshaking - not ulcers

[DawnS]

I have a thread connected to this in the Tack Room but thought I'd post here as becoming more of a vet issue.

I have a horse who for a while (maybe a few months?) has been intermittently stopping and shaking his head side to side when schooling. He'll be going along fine, then suddenly stop, shake his head around, and refuse to go forward. This lasts about 30s and then he carries on fine. He'll only do it once in a session, and only about 50% of the time.
We always assumed it was because his ears were hot and sweaty (head not clipped over winter). However come spring he is still doing it, including in the rain and with an ear bonnet on (though this seems to help somewhat. Each time it looks like he's been stung or got something up his nose.
I should add he has recently been seen by a very good dental vet, he has teeth done every 6 months. He also sees a McTimoney physio regularly.

After sending a video to my vet we put him on a bute trial. After 36 hours I girthed him up and he actually went down. He is usually a bit girthy but not to that extent. So I called her, took him off the bute and booked a gastroscope. Being a TB I have always assumed he might be ulcer-prone and he has been on a gastric cupplement and sucralfate as maintenance.
(p.s. He has done the going down when girthed thing before about 4 years ago. At that time vet couldn't find the cause and we turned him out for a bit then carried on.)

Gastroscope yesterday, he has the best stomach the vet has seen in ages. Vet palpated his back which was a bit sore in the lumbar region, having been fine when the physio saw him the week before. Horse has been working really well and showing no reluctance under saddle apart from the head thing. Saddle was fitted to him last year and has a prolite underneath.

I'm now stumped, as is my vet. Possibilities are kissing spines (seems odd at age 14), hindgut ulcers (but these typically associated with more digestive symptoms), muscle sprain (doesn't explain longer term headshaking, if the two are indeed connected), hock arthritis (is 100% sound as assessed by vet).

Anyone got any ideas? At the moment my plan is to give him a fortnight off, while taking him off sucralfate (if he gets a lot worse then hindgut ulcers look likely, if not I can stop wasting my money). Back xrays are a possibility but I've been warned tat many horses show changes on these which are not clinically significant.

Well done everyone that got this far!

 

[lynz88]

This probably sounds too simple but....have you accidentally hit the vagus nerve or could something be irritating it? I have heard of horses buckling when girthed and doing all sorts of funny things under saddle if this nerve is pressed or irritated.

 

[stangs]

It does sound like a neurological issue, maybe even an issue with the fascia. I'd be tempted to get an osteopath out, and definitely a saddle fitter; a year is plenty of time for something to have gone wrong.

 

[DawnS]

It does sound like a neurological issue, maybe even an issue with the fascia. I'd be tempted to get an osteopath out, and definitely a saddle fitter; a year is plenty of time for something to have gone wrong.

Yep, saddle fitter coming today!

 

[SEL]

If he doesn't do it on the lunge or in the field then I'd say saddle or girth. Physio to check muscles under girth?

 

[DawnS]

This probably sounds too simple but....have you accidentally hit the vagus nerve or could something be irritating it? I have heard of horses buckling when girthed and doing all sorts of funny things under saddle if this nerve is pressed or irritated.

Yes, he has a sheepskin on the girth but planning to ask the saddler to take a look. One problem I've had is finding a decent saddler!

 

[DawnS]

Update: saddler came out today and didn't like his saddle, said the tree is not curved enough and because of the fixed girth straps it's sitting too low at the front. They didn't have any others to try today, so hoping to get a fitting soon.
I am very distrustful of saddlers after having some awful ones, but this person comes highly recommended, so fingers crossed. Though I am annoyed since that saddle was fitted last year and was bloody expensive.
In the meantime it's turnout, stretches and physio booked asap.... on it goes!

 

[Zoeypxo]

Does the horse headshake on the lunge?

 

[DawnS]

Does the horse headshake on the lunge?

No

 

[Melody Grey]

This probably sounds too simple but....have you accidentally hit the vagus nerve or could something be irritating it? I have heard of horses buckling when girthed and doing all sorts of funny things under saddle if this nerve is pressed or irritated.

I was going to say exactly this.

 

[Melody Grey]

Also too simple but have you tried without nose band or riding in a head collar. Also riding bareback (if poss?!)

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Does your horse headshake at rest and/or in the field??

You say he is fine on the lunge.........

Sooh is this occurring ONLY with ridden work? IF it were happening at rest and/or in the field as well then I'd say trigeminal-nerve headshaking, but typically this happens when the horse is turned out as well as in the stable when the horse will "tic" regularly - sadly I've had a mare with this condition and it is fairly unmistakeable.

Bute trial didn't stop the headshaking; you've eliminated ulcers, and teeth are all ok.

What we did with my mare when we were trying to work out what was happening was we rode her in the very least possible thing, i.e. bareback and with a headcollar. We filmed it and observed it. Then we put her in a bitless bridle (Orbitless). Did same. Then bridle, same again. Then introduced the saddle - filmed it all through as before. This is what I suggest you now do as this would hopefully give you a progression of what is happening and what might be the triggers.

It's a bummer, feeling for you.

 

[DawnS]

I was going to say exactly this.

Yes, it sort of looks like that but that wouldn't explain the headshaking - assuming they are related.
He's now had 2 weeks in the field for any muscle soreness to abate, so I am planning to give him some lunging sessions, then ride him in my friend's GP, which the saddler says fits ok with a good amount of padding underneath. Good enough to see if we have the same response, anyway. Bareback/headcollar is unfortunately not really an option as he only shows this behaviour in 'proper' schooling sessions, and I don't flatter myself that I can effectively school without tack!

 

[DawnS]

Thought I'd update...
Physio came today and said he was very stiff through his neck and sore behind the withers too. Apparently the wither soreness could cause the girthing issues as there's a nerve that runs one to the other, or it could be a vagus nerve thing as some on here have suggested.

Next step is get the saddle sorted and physio returns in 2 weeks, if he's no better after that, then neck xrays.

My big issue atm is finding a saddler I can trust, and isn't booked up months in advance! Physio says he has big shoulders but nothing behind them, which is why he's proving so difficult to fit

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Thought I'd update...
Physio came today and said he was very stiff through his neck and sore behind the withers too. Apparently the wither soreness could cause the girthing issues as there's a nerve that runs one to the other, or it could be a vagus nerve thing as some on here have suggested.

Next step is get the saddle sorted and physio returns in 2 weeks, if he's no better after that, then neck xrays.

My big issue atm is finding a saddler I can trust, and isn't booked up months in advance! Physio says he has big shoulders but nothing behind them, which is why he's proving so difficult to fit

If his got no muscle behind the shoulder it's probably because the saddle has been too narrow, horses shouldn't have dips behind the shoulder it is muscle damage that would cause all sorts of pain issues so I would potentially start there, you basically will need a remedial fit to get that muscle to develop.

My horse had the same caused by crap saddle fitter and me not knowing any different, I ended up getting a Lavinia Mitchell saddle which is fitted much wider and a shim numnah, it was the best thing I ever did my horse completely changed shape the muscle came back and he could actually move correctly because the saddle wasn't too tight.

 

[DawnS]

If his got no muscle behind the shoulder it's probably because the saddle has been too narrow, horses shouldn't have dips behind the shoulder it is muscle damage that would cause all sorts of pain issues so I would potentially start there, you basically will need a remedial fit to get that muscle to develop.

My horse had the same caused by crap saddle fitter and me not knowing any different, I ended up getting a Lavinia Mitchell saddle which is fitted much wider and a shim numnah, it was the best thing I ever did my horse completely changed shape the muscle came back and he could actually move correctly because the saddle wasn't too tight.

Yes I feel that this is the way to go, but I’m having real difficulty finding a saddler. Does anyone have recommendations in Somerset or surrounding areas?

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

LM saddles probably have a fitter out that way they will at least have knowledge of what a healthy back should look like, unfortunately a lot of saddle fitters don't and will continue to fit to the wastage ?

 

[DawnS]

LM saddles probably have a fitter out that way they will at least have knowledge of what a healthy back should look like, unfortunately a lot of saddle fitters don't and will continue to fit to the wastage ?

Right, I got hold of an LM fitter who is coming in a few weeks, though their saddles have a 20 week wait! She did say she might be able to advise on shims in the meantime.
Their philosophy is to fit wide and leave room for growth which sort of makes sense but I have also heard that this can create instability which causes the horse to brace against it?
Does @sbloom have an opinion on this?
I spoke to another saddler (AH) who advised getting a cheap thorowgood and adjusting every month until he gets to where I want and I buy a permanent saddle.

It's so confusing, I'm getting fed up and just want to ride my horse

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Right, I got hold of an LM fitter who is coming in a few weeks, though their saddles have a 20 week wait! She did say she might be able to advise on shims in the meantime.
Their philosophy is to fit wide and leave room for growth which sort of makes sense but I have also heard that this can create instability which causes the horse to brace against it?
Does @sbloom have an opinion on this?
I spoke to another saddler (AH) who advised getting a cheap thorowgood and adjusting every month until he gets to where I want and I buy a permanent saddle.

It's so confusing, I'm getting fed up and just want to ride my horse

Great news the LM concept really worked for my horse I actually had Lavinia fit my saddle it was 10 years ago, the first time she put one on he felt like a different horse he just really moved it was quite unbelievable.

I have LM saddles for both of my Arab's I love there saddles my first one was brand new and I just bought a second hand dressage for my other horse, I would try and get a second hand one you do see them on ebay and preloved, just find out out what width and seat you need, I have a 3 and a 5 width they do come up really wide compared to other makes.

I honestly wouldn't bother with a thoroughgood no comparison to a LM saddle in my opinion, I find a lot of those adjustable saddles don't fit a lot of horses anyway.

Let me know how you get on with the fitter.

I haven't had an issue with it moving even on my flat backed barrel Arab I do use a flexi girth though, every other saddle I have had for him slipped to a degree, you need to get the shims right they will show you how to do it.

 

[DawnS]

Physio on Friday and she said he was like a different horse, and no longer thinks he needs xrays (though thats still an option if he goes wrong again once in ridden work)

Well, the saddler came yesterday - Amelia Poole. I couldn't fault her, she was there for over 2 hours and could have easily stopped at 'ok' but kept at it until we had it right. She also gave me some good tips on biomechanics and my riding.
The problem was that everything kept slipping forwards and blocking the shoulder. Tried different girth, different shim combinations, different tree and finally cracked it with a size 4 (extra wide!) flatter tree LM saddle with a shimmed prolite underneath.

The only trouble is that these are a newer model saddle with a 20 week wait time. so having wanted a black dressage saddle, what I have (temporarily at least) is a brown GP. Black bridle and brown saddle ... it makes me a bit itchy!

 

[Regandal]

I adored my LM saddle, sadly no longer suitable for my horse. Gutted.

 

[sbloom]

Sorry I didn't see the tag, I only see LM saddles where they're not working well, so it's probably not appropriate for me to comment. Glad you found a solution and yes, not surprised it's a flatter model.

An AH fitter recommending a TG is just about finding something easily available and adjustable, as long as it fits initially, while the horse changes shape. It's not about it being better or worse than LM.

 

[DawnS]

Sorry I didn't see the tag, I only see LM saddles where they're not working well, so it's probably not appropriate for me to comment. Glad you found a solution and yes, not surprised it's a flatter model.

An AH fitter recommending a TG is just about finding something easily available and adjustable, as long as it fits initially, while the horse changes shape. It's not about it being better or worse than LM.

I didn’t mean to imply that one was implicitly better than another! Honestly I’ve been a bit disillusioned by the whole business, many people saying different things, almost impossible to go by reputation as there’s no one who everybody vouches for and even master saddler status seems to be no guarantee. It has shown me that I need to get a better understanding myself so I’m not being led one way or another.
Nonetheless this saddle appears to fit, horse seems happy and I will definitely be trialling it for a while before ordering the dressage version.

 

[sbloom]

It was more a comment to pinkvboots, I should have quoted or tagged.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Physio on Friday and she said he was like a different horse, and no longer thinks he needs xrays (though thats still an option if he goes wrong again once in ridden work)

Well, the saddler came yesterday - Amelia Poole. I couldn't fault her, she was there for over 2 hours and could have easily stopped at 'ok' but kept at it until we had it right. She also gave me some good tips on biomechanics and my riding.
The problem was that everything kept slipping forwards and blocking the shoulder. Tried different girth, different shim combinations, different tree and finally cracked it with a size 4 (extra wide!) flatter tree LM saddle with a shimmed prolite underneath.

The only trouble is that these are a newer model saddle with a 20 week wait time. so having wanted a black dressage saddle, what I have (temporarily at least) is a brown GP. Black bridle and brown saddle ... it makes me a bit itchy!

That sounds good I hope you get on OK with it they often have second hand LM dressage saddles on Ebay and most are black I would keep looking.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Sorry I didn't see the tag, I only see LM saddles where they're not working well, so it's probably not appropriate for me to comment. Glad you found a solution and yes, not surprised it's a flatter model.

An AH fitter recommending a TG is just about finding something easily available and adjustable, as long as it fits initially, while the horse changes shape. It's not about it being better or worse than LM.

I do understand that but I know which one I would rather sit on, it's probably a cheaper option but I would rather spend a bit more and be comfortable.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

There are a few black 4 width dressage and vsd on ebay at the moment

 

[DawnS]

There are a few black 4 width dressage and vsd on ebay at the moment

alas he likes the brand new style ones with the flatter tree! But he was brilliant in his lesson today which softens the blow.