'Girthy' and under the weather Mare - WWYD

lialls

lialls

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Hi

I'm looking for some guidance on which route to take next with my horse who has posed a dilemma.

Back story - Approx 3 weeks ago Sal (Welsh D, 9yo, who was ridden 4x weekly, hacking, schooling and SJ once a month) showed signs of pain to handle and ride - being girthy (abdomen area, rather than girth area), refusing any rein/bit contact, the muscles under her saddle appear to have wasted/dipped away from topline and she is generally a bit grumpy which is totally out of character for her.

Chiropractor came on Monday and confirmed that she's sound and Chiro wasn't able to trigger a pain response in any muscles so no sign of a field strain/injury etc. She thought maybe a mild 'tying up' episode previously may have caused what we are seeing now with the muscle wastage and advised to get bloods run with the vets to see if it showed anything. (4 weeks ago we did RC camp, whilst it wasn't physically tiring it was hot and we did have to travel home quite a way in the heat so maybe an electrolyte or vit/min imbalance is playing out)

Vet came this morning to take blood and didn't feel that it did correlate with an episode of tying up as she's not sore to touch anywhere else and the muscle wastage is only in a specific area. Vet thought that it was more likely a hormone issue (either cyst on ovary or had got stuck in season) and maybe a liver issue. Sal is in good health otherwise(as far as I'm aware), though she does have bleaching of her black coat which has been present for approx 6 months. She wears a fly rug when out so it shouldn't be sun bleaching and it's where her tack goes on her head and middle of body. She is also photosensitive in really sunny weather so this would also point to a liver issue though I don't think this would make her girthy?

Vet has offered the following options -
Blood test - General blood profile - I think she said this one is for the electrolytes and vits/mins £150
Blood test - Liver Specific - £126
Blood test - Hormone Specific £202
1ltr Regumate to try as a test and see if symptoms persist £250
Ovary scan to check for cyst and where she is in cycle £65

Sal isn't fed any hard feed currently but maybe I should look in to a good supplement?

Any recommendations for alternative treatments to find out what's going on or preference on where to start with this?
 
My starting point is usually the general blood panel. Is she on a balancer though? Bleaching out of the coat is often copper deficiency and lots of land in the UK is low in copper.

For a general pick me up pending vet i like L94 from Trinity.
 
SEL said:
My starting point is usually the general blood panel. Is she on a balancer though? Bleaching out of the coat is often copper deficiency and lots of land in the UK is low in copper.

For a general pick me up pending vet i like L94 from Trinity.
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She's not on a balancer or any feed actually. Thank you, i will look in to the L94 then and er towards the general blood test
 
lialls said:
She's not on a balancer or any feed actually. Thank you, i will look in to the L94 then and er towards the general blood test
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Ask your vet if they suggest any copper tonics - progressive earth do a supplement which is just copper / zinc / selenium but it doesn't taste great.
 
Any results from the bloods yet.
I had one years ago a bit similar, bloods came back with high white cell count. Abdomen scan revealed a huge abcess 😪
Equally friends mare was depressed & girthy, appeared sound. She was eventually diagnosed bilaterally lame in front, kissing spines & ulcers.
Unfortunately it is probably a case of looking at one thing at a time & hopefully getting answers. So many possibles from fairly vague symptoms 😪
 
I think I would do a general blood screen and look at copper.
I have had a horse with a copper malabsorption issue he was very flat and dead to the leg he had bleaching he was also girthy . He was a funny mixture of dead and over reactive.
I bought him fit mid hunting season to replace a lame horse he was in hunt service but was too backwards for the job .
As time passed I was sure something odd ish was going on.
The bleaching led to test for copper level which where very low,a period on a high dose of a oral supplement followed we then retested no improvement in the blood level of copper at point the vet said it was a true malabsorption issue not simply dietary insufficiency.
We injected him with a copper supplement used for cattle his improvement was huge and quick and he pretty well changed colour from a weird chestnut brown hybrid to a glossy deep brown .
We check his levels once more he needed no action .
Half way through the next winter I sold him on as the horse he replaced was back on the job and we did not need four horses who hunted he went a Amateur whip who had all the rest of his life .
He was a nice kind horse I regretted selling him but he was way too tall for me to enjoy hunting and my OH loved the other two he had more.
 
Thank you Goldenstar, that's really interesting. Sal can be reactive but more recently she's had moments where she refused to move off the leg so maybe it is a copper issue.

Due to the vets thinking that it's either hormone and/or liver, the blood tests to check these two would total £328 and may not include the basic vits, minerals and electrolytes etc. As an alternative I am going to have her hair tested which will cover a lot more for £100. I was away last week so I'm sending this off today and will update once I have some results.

Hopefully it's something that can be identified and treated pronto 🤞
 
Little update - So it's come back that her liver isn't working properly due to some mineral imbalances (Glutamine, Taurine, MSM, Zinc, B6, B12 and GLA fatty acid are all lacking) I've ordered everything that I need to cover this, just waiting for it all to arrive now and then we will retest in about 8 weeks to check that things have improved. Her symptoms seem to have improved even though she's not being fed anything yet, could just be that she's now been out of work for 6 weeks so her body isn't under any strain.
 
Since August we haven't managed to make any progress with this, we have days when she's really cheerful and happy to be touched and days when she's grumpy as soon as I approach, refusing to eat hay and reactive to touch in the girth and abdomen area. Sal was scoped a month ago and a small area of ulcers was found, vets thought they were a 3/10 severity and recommended Hestevard Pectigue Advanced - feed supplement they thought as they were minor this could be enough to resolve them. About 3 days after starting this Sal was noticeably cheerful but things seem to have gone back down hill over the last week(been on supplement for 3 weeks now) where some days she's fine and the next day she's not. I guess that this is a usually characteristic of ulcers which is frustrating. I called the vets to ask for the hard drugs - the Injectable Omeprazole but in the meantime noticed that Sal is in season and I'm now wondering if this is coinciding with the grumpy days. Though I'm not sure how I would test or track this theory without getting her scanned.

Vets said they are happy to run a hormone blood test before we go for the Injectable Omeprazole but I'm not sure how common a hormone issue is and would it cause these symptoms? I'm happy to pay for the Injectable Omeprazole but want to try and be sure that this is the issue and it's not something else causing the ulcers in the first place.

Any thoughts on your experiences of hormones and/or ulcers would be lovely.
 
I have just ordered a months worth of Omeprazole from Abler.com for £188 - it may not be as potent as the injectable, but it's MUCH more budget friendly if you're treating on a hunch that it may help as I am
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
I have just ordered a months worth of Omeprazole from Abler.com for £188 - it may not be as potent as the injectable, but it's MUCH more budget friendly if you're treating on a hunch that it may help as I am
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That's really interesting, the vets initially thought that the feed supplement would be enough to treat them as they are quite low grade so this might be worth me looking in to as a middle ground. They said that the injections have quite a negative impact on the horse due to the liquid being really thick so it's a 2 person job and by the last injection the horse can be reluctant to stand quietly 😓
 
I would be very reluctant to use the injectable omeprazole. My pony had ulcers, which were treated with the syringes. He scoped clear after this but a a month later the ulcers returned. The vet said she wanted to treat these 'more aggressively' so used the injections. This was one a week for six weeks. The injections are very hard for them as they are so thick, so need a large needle and take time to get into the skin. My pony is very good but he hated the injections, by the third one he was very difficult to handle for the vet. They left him very mistrustful of touch generally and of vets in particular for ages after the treatment. I changed vets after the treatment had ended and my new vet said it was a fairly common reaction to them.
 
Chianti said:
I would be very reluctant to use the injectable omeprazole. My pony had ulcers, which were treated with the syringes. He scoped clear after this but a a month later the ulcers returned. The vet said she wanted to treat these 'more aggressively' so used the injections. This was one a week for six weeks. The injections are very hard for them as they are so thick, so need a large needle and take time to get into the skin. My pony is very good but he hated the injections, by the third one he was very difficult to handle for the vet. They left him very mistrustful of touch generally and of vets in particular for ages after the treatment. I changed vets after the treatment had ended and my new vet said it was a fairly common reaction to them.
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This is a worry for me, Sal is a sensitive pony and whilst currently handles injections well, it wouldn't take long for her to lose trust. I guess the alternative would be to feed omeprazole instead then.

I have just spoken my our bodyworker about the correlation of symptoms with PSSM so I think I might investigate this too.
 
fredflop said:
What blood tests did you have done in the end?
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I didn't end up having any bloods done back in the summer, the vets offered bloods for Hormone £202, Liver £126, Basic Vits and Minerals/General Profile £150 or a General Screen £100. None of these covered what i wanted and the vets didn't seem to be able to confirm the difference between the General Profile and General Screen. I went for hair testing instead which showed her liver wasn't working properly and some mineral imbalances (Glutamine, Taurine, MSM, Zinc, B6, B12 and GLA fatty acid are all lacking). She promptly had a liver detox and has been supplemented for these minerals since. I am wondering if the liver is still an issue though so maybe i will get the blood run for that now to make sure that the issue has resolved.
 
ester said:
What were her earlier liver figures once you found it was a problem? I didn’t think hair testing gave reliable results mineral wise?
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The hair test won't be comparable to a blood test so I don't have a baseline to go off now. @ester and @fredflop I'm just not sure how a liver issue ties into to the symptoms we have? I'm happy to spend money but it's limited so I'm trying to be logical with it.
 
She’s photosensitive and girthy the former very much tying into symptoms, it was the only one mine had and was followed up immediately when it appeared.
 
ester said:
She’s photosensitive and girthy the former very much tying into symptoms, it was the only one mine had and was followed up immediately when it appeared.
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Echo this - we were investigating scabs and sores on legs on a Friesian - there were no liver symptoms and he ended up being diagnosed with an issue. Luckily we had the blood test done else we wouldn’t have known!

Another thing I’d possibly explore is ovary pain. I know it has been mild but most mares won’t be coming into season now at this time of year. Mine hasn’t cycled since October. A good herb for hormonal mares is agnus castus as it does seem to regulate their moods though.
 
spotty_pony2 said:
Echo this - we were investigating scabs and sores on legs on a Friesian - there were no liver symptoms and he ended up being diagnosed with an issue. Luckily we had the blood test done else we wouldn’t have known!

Another thing I’d possibly explore is ovary pain. I know it has been mild but most mares won’t be coming into season now at this time of year. Mine hasn’t cycled since October. A good herb for hormonal mares is agnus castus as it does seem to regulate their moods though.
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Thank you, she's not suffered from photosensitivity since July/August time and she has had a liver detox back in September I think, this didn't seem to improve any symptoms. There is a thought that if there is a malabsorption issue the liver detox wouldn't have worked though.

Vets have mentioned ovary pain (however they did say that they thought she wasn't showing pain in the right area for this) but their only suggestion was to trial Regumate which I felt was a big step, I'd like to be a bit more sure of this before we use such potent drugs.

I have requested a senior vet for Wednesdays appointment and I will probe these topics a bit more with them. Appreciate everyone's input on this:)
 
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