Give & Retake Question

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el_Snowflakes

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Hi,

When I push my hands towards her mouth, my horse takes the contact forwards & down. Can any dressage divas please advise me the best way to maintain her self carriage in this movement?
Thanks
 
If your horse is truly in self carriage it should not follow the contact down when given a few strides without being held up, they should only stretch when asked to stretch, I usually prepare for this movement early on in the training by giving one rein or other at intervals often accompanied with a pat to the neck to ensure they are not leaning and that they are really carrying themselves and not relying on the hand to stay in the frame, the next stage to give and retake both is then easy to set up by half halting, to prepare them, then giving both hands forward for one, then two then more strides until they can stay in self carriage for as long as you want/ they are ready for.

Break it down into stages, give one rein for a few strides then the other, using the long side so you have no issues with loss of steering, then once the horse understands and is remaining in the frame start to do it with both, build up the amount of strides gradually, make sure you stay in the same position and don't go forward which will encourage stretching and if she is ready she should start to realise what you want, only ask for what the horse can manage without it starting to stretch initially otherwise they will become confused.

In the test you really need to make it very clear you are giving, that it is not a quick drop and pick up if you want to get good marks, I normally aim to do several strides with the reins clearly loose and have frequently got my best marks in a test for this movement by making it very clear that my hands are forward and the reins are completely loose.
 
It's a funny one, isn't it. I agree with everything you've said in theory bp, but to me, if I had my horse truly seeking the contact and through, if I moved the contact 'forward' several inches for several strides, I'd *hope* the horse would push it's nose forward or down to see where I'd gone. To me, I rely on that response to be able to adjust the horse's frame.

Otherwise I'd be concerned that it was sitting slightly behind the contact, and holding itself there regardless of what was on the end of the reins. I'm not entirely convinced that staying in the same balance etc with no contact shows self carriage - I think self carriage can be seen when the horse travels into a soft contact confidently.:confused:

I hate it as a "movement" in trot, exaggerated so that it can be seen by the judge :o (as opposed to an exercise over a stride at home) and it appears quite early in a dressage horse's test career IMO, and at a time when other tests require a long rein to stretch response.
As you go up the levels it then disappears from the tests never to be seen again (in trot, but the stretching remains). Good riddance :D
 
Try half-halting right before you give to re-establish balance and bring the weight back onto the hind leg, then retake faster than you would in a test until the horse gets used to the idea.
 
I agree milliepops it is an odd movement and can be very hard to define let alone ride, I tend to ride mine on a fairly strong contact, I hate them sitting behind and not taking me forward, I do let them take the nose forward to a degree in this movement but they should be enough on the seat/ leg aids to not keep going further down for what is just a few strides.
When out hacking I usually have a fairly long rein but I do not expect them to be stretching down all the time seeking the contact they are usually up in front in an open outline but within a frame, so I see it as much the same they should maintain their carriage much the same as they should maintain their pace until asked to do otherwise, or that is the theory the reality is often very different.
 
Um, the horse is SUPPOSED to take the contact forwards and down when the rein is given, if it doesn't then it shows that the contact is false and the horse is behind the rider's hand. *Note - this does not mean tug the reins from the rider's hand, speed up, run off, or fall flat on its face!
 
Just checked the definitions in the BD rulebook. Interesting:

"The rider pushes one or both hands, as stated on the test sheet, towards the bit to clearly release the contact and then retakes it. The movement of the hands/hand should be continuous and achieved over two or three strides. As this is a test of self carriage the horse should stay in balance, keeping the same rhythm, level of engagement, suppleness of the back, and accept the restoration of the contact without any loss of submission"
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Hmmmm....in trot, 2 or 3 strides would be a very quick give and retake, blink and you miss it kind of thing - I don't know about anyone else but I've always shown more like 4-6 strides by which time the correctly trained horse will wonder where the rider is and seek the contact IMO.

OP, Booboos suggestion would be the way I'd approach it if I wanted to perform this better in a test. Or giving inside or outside rein separately.
 
The test will tell you whether it should be one hand or both. My suggestion above was for training at home.

ETA. At prelim and novice it's usually (always? I think) both hands. There's at least one elem test from memory that you give the inside hand on a 10m trot circle and that shows more than just whether you lose the frame etc with release of the contact, but a bit more about whether the horse is connected in the outside rein, round the inside leg or whether the rider is pulling the horse round the circle with the inside rein.

G&R reappears in canter in one test at Advanced Medium.
 
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Individual tests specify whether it should be one or both hands, usually one in trot and both in canter. The one hand is the inside hand to show to the judge that the hire is willingly bending around the inside leg and is not being pulled round. It was introduced in BD tests after the Anky convention when Anky asked several top combinations to give the inside hand in trot with oredominantly disastrous results.
 
I agree, it's stupid. Or at least confusing for us lower level riders. Giving the inside rein is great as an exercise, for stopping a horse leaning, and as a movement it shows you're not hanging off their mouth or vice versa, but why give both?

But yes, just half halt them onto your seat, and hold them with your seat. I use the same seat aids I would for collecting, so that it is clearly different from stretching aids. I think basically make it as different from stretching as possible, so use a holding seat and a quick release of the reins rather than an allowing seat and gradual release of the reins. It's easier in sitting trot.

We always get good marks in this movement, because my horse loves 'posing' in a false outline and I spend all my life trying to get him to take the contact forward. For the give and retake I just stop badgering him about going into the contact and he goes into 'pretty pony mode' and I can do whatever I want with my hands with no change in carriage from him. If he is actually arching out to the bit he follows the contact forward, at least slightly. I think as long as they keep their shoulders lifted, stay in rhythm and stay vaguely round, you won't be penalised for a slight change in neck positioning. I think they're looking to mark down horses that immediately flop onto the forehand or make a break for it!
 
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It's not at all daft, it is supposed to reveal one of the fundamental principles of proper training; that you're not holding the horse up or creating a false shape by hauling it in; that there is harmony and an elastic connection to the mouth; that the horse is comfortable with the rider's contact and travelling in balance. What's daft about all that? If you can release both reins and have the horse continue in rhythm whilst slowly seeking the rider's hand, THAT is your reward for correct training. If anything else happens, well......
 
Cortez said:
It's not at all daft, it is supposed to reveal one of the fundamental principles of proper training; that you're not holding the horse up or creating a false shape by hauling it in; that there is harmony and an elastic connection to the mouth; that the horse is comfortable with the rider's contact and travelling in balance. What's daft about all that? If you can release both reins and have the horse continue in rhythm whilst slowly seeking the rider's hand, THAT is your reward for correct training. If anything else happens, well......
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Because last time the judge did not want to see my horse stretch her neck down to seek the contact, she wanted her to stay behind it thus creating a loop in the rein. The fact that my horse stretches down to seek the contact should show that I'm not creating a 'false' shape.
 
el_Snowflakes said:
Because last time the judge did not want to see my horse stretch her neck down to seek the contact, she wanted her to stay behind it thus creating a loop in the rein. The fact that my horse stretches down to seek the contact should show that I'm not creating a 'false' shape.
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Yes, indeed it does: perhaps your judge needs to re-read the guidelines?
 
I pasted the guidelines above. It doesn't actually say the horse shouldn't seek the contact. It does, however, say that the contact should be given away and then taken back without a change in the horse's way of going. That's fair enough in theory. If you are supposed to effect this over 3 strides it really is a very very short movement. I think the problem is as riders we have to be sure the judge will have seen us do this, so you have to dramatically move your hands to demonstrate the loop in the rein, and as you wouldn't wish to make an abrupt change to the contact, it tends to stretch over more than 3 strides...

which is when the horse would hopefully go looking for you. You can certainly release & retake the contact over a stride or 2 at home as a useful training exercise, but a judge sitting 60m away from you won't not be able to see this. It's the exaggeration needed to demonstrate that you've done it that makes this such an irritating thing in a test. IMHO :wink3:
 
milliepops said:
I pasted the guidelines above. It doesn't actually say the horse shouldn't seek the contact. It does, however, say that the contact should be given away and then taken back without a change in the horse's way of going. That's fair enough in theory. If you are supposed to effect this over 3 strides it really is a very very short movement. I think the problem is as riders we have to be sure the judge will have seen us do this, so you have to dramatically move your hands to demonstrate the loop in the rein, and as you wouldn't wish to make an abrupt change to the contact, it tends to stretch over more than 3 strides...

which is when the horse would hopefully go looking for you. You can certainly release & retake the contact over a stride or 2 at home as a useful training exercise, but a judge sitting 60m away from you won't not be able to see this. It's the exaggeration needed to demonstrate that you've done it that makes this such an irritating thing in a test. IMHO :wink3:
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I'm with you on this.
For me the problem isn't the movement and purpose of it, it's a very valid training/schooling exercise. For me it is the way you often have to over exaggerate the movement in a test to get the mark.
There is no doubt that at the lower levels it is often ridden very badly and as such leads to rider confusion. I'm also not convinced judges are always on the same wavelength on the marking of this movement.

It was briefly raised with Isobel in the judging seminar this Saturday. She did say that providing balance maintained a slight seeking of the contact could be considered acceptable.
 
ihatework said:
It was briefly raised with Isobel in the judging seminar this Saturday. She did say that providing balance maintained a slight seeking of the contact could be considered acceptable.
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IMO it is a lot more than acceptable - it is part of the whole purpose of the exercise; to demonstrate the horse's acceptance of the contact and the correctness of the training. If the horse does not seek the rein he is ipso facto behind the aids and/or "fixed" in an incorrect frame. Honestly, modern dressage pains me.........
 
you are correct Cortez,but the issue is that what the wording SAYS it needs to show and what judges want to SEE are at loggerheads.

TBH at home when i am allowing the horse to chew the rein down/follow the rein and wish it to maintain that lowered outline, the reins are longer and hands lower and wider..........and as a quick test of self carriage rather than a prolonged stretch its a very brief move.

you have to almost teach them it as a trick for the tests, they are clever animals and will pick up the *one when you shove your hands to my ears for 4 strides is the one i need to keep my nose in and neck up for* and that when you slip the reins and drop your hands they are allowed to seek it down.

that in its self is not the best thing to have to do, but its easy marks in nearly every novice test.
 
There is a distinct difference between the 'give and re-take' and 'allow the horse to stretch to the floor'. Both are valid training techniques and its fairly easy to show the horse the difference between the two.

The 'give and re-take' is asking for the horse, when the rider gives the rein, to stay in the same frame, balance and tempo. This does not mean that upon achieving this the horse was stuck in the frame, behind the aids etc. Just before I ask for this I increase my body tone, add a slight forward driving aid and then give and re-take upon the rein contact is clearly released with a loop in the rein but the horse stays in the rounded frame. 2-3 strides is plenty and is not quick. Someone mentioned 4-6 strides - well on average a horse will do a 20m circle in roughly 24 strides, so 6 strides is a 1/4 of a 20m circle which is too much.

For the stretch down, just before I ask, I reduce my body tone (does not mean collapse down..), lower my hands slightly and think soft and the horse follows the hand to the floor, staying in the same tempo and balance but this time lengthening the frame into the long and low position.
 
Simon Battram said:
There is a distinct difference between the 'give and re-take' and 'allow the horse to stretch to the floor'. Both are valid training techniques and its fairly easy to show the horse the difference between the two.

The 'give and re-take' is asking for the horse, when the rider gives the rein, to stay in the same frame, balance and tempo. This does not mean that upon achieving this the horse was stuck in the frame, behind the aids etc. Just before I ask for this I increase my body tone, add a slight forward driving aid and then give and re-take upon the rein contact is clearly released with a loop in the rein but the horse stays in the rounded frame. 2-3 strides is plenty and is not quick. Someone mentioned 4-6 strides - well on average a horse will do a 20m circle in roughly 24 strides, so 6 strides is a 1/4 of a 20m circle which is too much.

For the stretch down, just before I ask, I reduce my body tone (does not mean collapse down..), lower my hands slightly and think soft and the horse follows the hand to the floor, staying in the same tempo and balance but this time lengthening the frame into the long and low position.
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Thank you. I was getting myself very confused reading this thread, which frankly isn't difficult at this time of the evening after a long week. The way you have explained it makes total sense to me. And, reassuringly, chimes with how my trainer has described the movement. Phew!
 
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