Giving Bute for comfort

Summit

Summit

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My 20 year old has just been diagnosed with coffin joint arthritis. My vet has mentioned injections if that’s what I’d like to do but at the moment we’re going to give him Bute.

He’s just a happy hacker, 3/4 times a week....nothing competitive and no schooling.

Vet has suggested a Bute before I ride and see how that helps him. We can then progress to one the night before as well if need be.

Would like to seek other people’s dosage of Bute, ie would a sachet after riding be better?

Also as bute is only in the system for approx 12 hours, I was wondering - to those of you who feed Bute one sachet a day then this wouldn’t be keeping the horse comfortable for the whole 24 hour period?
 
My creaky mare (bilateral hock arthritis amongst other issues) is on a Danilon a day. She has had her hocks injected twice, it does help but there is so little joint space left that the injections are painful for her and difficult for the vet. I may keep her long term on Danilon rather than put her through the jabs again, but hopefully the hock will eventually fuse and then she should be sound without Danilon. She tolerates the Danilon very well, she has a sachet in her morning feed.

Both regular vet and chiro vet agree that she is much better kept on in lightish work, mostly hacking, than being retired, and so does she!
 
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Yes vet is happy and keen for him to continue hacking, he feels that if he’s retired to field then he will probably just get miserable.

The injections are something I’m considering, seems to be many fors and against and if they don’t work then we just continue with Bute
 
ester said:
No, I'd give before riding.
It hangs around in the inflammatory exudate longer (24 H) than elsewhere hence can often be given once daily.
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How long does it take to kick in? Would an hour be enough? Otherwise I’ll need to make an early visit before I go back and ride

The inflammatory exudate sounds interesting :), can you explain this please?
 
Don't bother with injections - the effect doesn't last. My horse has had coffin joint arthritis for years. Spent a small fortune on all sorts of treatments recommended by the vet, (including steroid injections). Result? back to square one. I have been giving him 1 bute per day for years now (he is now 25 and still hacking out). I give it with his breakfast at around 0730 and then hack him out at around 10 am.

Bute will stay in the system for at least 3 days (this is why the vet will tell you to stop giving it 3 days before a visit to investigate anything).

Bute is accumulative so it will not be obvious at first that its working. You need to wait a few days to see any effect. You will need to give a loading dose. Follow the instructions on the packet. For example, for a 400kg horse (1000 lbs) Its 2 sachets twice on day one, followed by 1 sachet twice daily for 4 days then one per day thereafter. Obviously, you should listen to your vet on how much to give.

Steroid injections can perform miracles at first but will need to be repeated as they are not a cure. Every successive injection will have less and less effect until it becomes a pointless exercise and, besides, I'm not convinced they don't do any damage to the joint. My horse is very comfortable on 1 bute but he does feel he hard ground so I stick to the edges of tracks or just stay off them.
 
Zuzzie, he did not advise a loading dose, just told me to start with one sachet when I next want to ride

Just to add, he’s not having Bute every day yet, vet wants to start him on a sachet before I ride
 
Summit said:
Perhaps a loading dose is for a bute trial or an acute condition
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I've done those loading doses. Once was after my retiree had an awful fall in the field and the other was a bute trial.

I tend to give the retiree his at night to reduce stiffness if he lies down. The other one - hock arthritis - i tend to give with breakfast on a fairly empty tummy only if I'm riding. When she had danilon for a whole month I had to give after a net of hay because her stomach started to struggle.
 
Summit said:
Zuzzie, he did not advise a loading dose, just told me to start with one sachet when I next want to ride

Just to add, he’s not having Bute every day yet, vet wants to start him on a sachet before I ride
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If your vet has advised this then that's fine but I don't think you will see much of an improvement for a while because, as I said, its accumulative. Just don't give up and think its not working. Just one thing though, did your vet give you a box of bute because if so the instructions are clear about how many to give at the start.
 
This is the blurb for Danilon, including the loading dose. The aim is get an arthritic horse comfortable on the lowest dose possible after the loading dose settles it down, maybe half a sachet a day if that’s enough. Though I appreciate that your vet wants it given as and when, which is not something that I’ve ever been advised to do.

‘Amounts to be administered and administration route
For oral administration.
When added to a portion of feed the product will be accepted by most horses.
The following should be used as a guide, according to individual response:
Horses
For a 480 kg bodyweight horse, the contents of 2 sachets should be administered twice daily (equivalent to 12.5 mg of suxibuzone/kg/day) for 2 days, followed by 1 sachet twice daily (6.25 mg of suxibuzone/kg/day) for 3 days.

Thereafter, 1 sachet daily (3.1 mg of suxibuzone/kg/day) or on alternate days, or the minimum dose necessary for a satisfactory clinical response.’
 
My mare was diagnosed with the same, at a similar age in both fronts. She was managed with a daily Danilon and an extra Danilon in her breakfast on days she was ridden. Again only hacked out gently a few times a week. She also had extra Danilon on days where the farrier was coming and a day or two after

She coped admirably on this regime until the beginning of last winter where she ended up on 2 daily Danilon (she was no longer ridden) but went downhill early this year and I had to say goodbye. She did probably 3 years ? on daily painkillers and was really happy
 
Summit said:
My 20 year old has just been diagnosed with coffin joint arthritis. My vet has mentioned injections if that’s what I’d like to do but at the moment we’re going to give him Bute.

He’s just a happy hacker, 3/4 times a week....nothing competitive and no schooling.

Vet has suggested a Bute before I ride and see how that helps him. We can then progress to one the night before as well if need be.

Would like to seek other people’s dosage of Bute, ie would a sachet after riding be better?

Also as bute is only in the system for approx 12 hours, I was wondering - to those of you who feed Bute one sachet a day then this wouldn’t be keeping the horse comfortable for the whole 24 hour period?
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Mines a happy hacker also. I choose to give my horse one sachet of bute in her breakfast and stick it in her feed that I make up the night before. Its always suited her to be fed this way and has worked well. Then if you are going to ride after work it will still be in the system. Over night she's out in the field mooching so can walk off any stiffness.

If I've been on a particularly long hack I will occasionally give her a bute after in her tea but recently haven't even had to do that. I am sure I will have to in the winter with the cold and mud but which is an arthritic horses worst nightmare.

Mine has had four coffin joint injections in 12 years and doesn't appear to need more. She is given the bute for another reason.

PS I don't trot on the roads much if at all as it has a very jarring effect to CJA, but I expect you know that already :)
 
Tiddlypom said:
My creaky mare (bilateral hock arthritis amongst other issues) is on a Danilon a day. She has had her hocks injected twice, it does help but there is so little joint space left that the injections are painful for her and difficult for the vet.
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I don't understand this comment?? I know you cannot re-inject a horses joint space with ethanol (Chemical Arthrodesis) because the fluid stays in there and is not asbsorbed by the body although it kills the nerve endings and makes the horse pain free and accelerates fusion (or can accelerate it).

But with normal steroid injections (corticosteroid which can contain Hyaluronanic Acid, pain killer and other anti-inflammatory substances) its my belief that they can be re-injected time after time after time.

Certainly my friends horse received joint medication before resorting to Tildren and then finally chemical arthrodesis and I know many horses on previous and current livery yard that have their joints medicated on a frequent basis for years. Some people have to re-medicate every six months and I've heard that some people do this on a monthly basis although I'm not entirely sure if this is true but wouldn't be surprised with things that you hear in the horse world.
 
Zuzzie said:
If your vet has advised this then that's fine but I don't think you will see much of an improvement for a while because, as I said, its accumulative. Just don't give up and think its not working. Just one thing though, did your vet give you a box of bute because if so the instructions are clear about how many to give at the start.
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The loading dose must only apply to horses with an injury or if you are going to dose every day? It surely can’t work if you only ride 2/3 days a Week? You’d be loading all the time :oops:
 
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Summit said:
The loading dose must only apply to horses with an injury or if you are going to dose every day? It surely can’t work if you only ride 2/3 days a Week? You’d be loading all the time :oops:
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The loading dose is given to a horse as it says - a loading dose. To get maximum amount into the horse in a short space of time to kick start it into the body (usually 5 - 7 days) and then given thereafter as a regular dose (known as a maintenance dose).

One bute a couple of hours before you ride will determine if its had an affect on the horse - it is an anti inflammatory and well as pain killer and equivalent to a dosage of human aspirin or ibuprofen as a like for like explanation. From a research paper - most clinical studies have shown that the anti-inflamatory and analgesic effects of usual dosages of phenylbutazone in the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis or osteoarthritis are greater than those of placebo, somewhat better than those of useual dosages of asprin, and about equal to those of usual dosages of ibuprofen. ,Single daily dosing is sufficient when used on maintenance level. It works by I think binding one molecule to another and inhibits something else which then does something magical to something else that is way over my head! Ester would probably know :)

Apparently it takes 300mg 2.5 hours to work on a fasting man according to the paper.
 
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You can't keep re-injecting steroid into joints where the arthritis has progressed to mean it is difficult to get in the joint space/the gap is no longer big enough.
That is why TP referred to joint space (or lack of)
 
HB, as the hock joint remodels in spavin formation the intra articular spaces get smaller and smaller. Eventually it fuses and the horse goes sound. It gets progressively more difficult to introduce a needle into the space as the space shrinks, although that it what you want it to do long term. Hope that helps.
 
I have given one bute on the morning of a farrier visit to a horse that struggled to keep her feet up for long enough but didn't appear stiff on a day to day basis. That helped even the massive Draft horse.
 
hopscotch bandit said:
The loading dose is given to a horse as it says - a loading dose. To get maximum amount into the horse in a short space of time to kick start it into the body (usually 5 - 7 days) and then given thereafter as a regular dose (known as a maintenance dose).


Apparently it takes 300mg 2.5 hours .
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So if I gave the loading dose, then didn’t ride for 3/4 days but gave a bute to ride, then didn’t ride for another 3 days, again bute for the riding day....would the loading dose still apply or be working?
 
No it would not .
I have used Bute or Danilon loads of time as the vet described to you often with hunters .
I either give them one on a hunting morning or one in the evening after hunting what works best for the horse .
Fatty who is retired get the odd Bute when he looks off if he’s lame lame he gets a loading dose and a full week of a tapering dose .
 
If you use a loading dose then you need to drop it down to 1 or possibly 1/2 every day but your vet has advised only giving on the days you ride so you either do that or give it daily which is not being advised at the moment.
 
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