Glue factory?

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SuzyQ

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Gosh, by the sound of this chap, all our horses would be better off in tins of dog food:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAWUJn5RIPQ



Is it just me or does this sort of thing seem to be intensifying?


Is it worse to ride a horse than to eat meat? Or wear leather shoes? Should we feel guilty for riding or just for competing?


Hmmmm


SuzyQ
 
he has a point in that alot of pure dressage horses suffer a much higher rate of work related injuries and illnesses than a pleasure horse or even horses from other disciplines to an extent. Especially the ones that are not allowed to be horses and kept stabled 24/7 then asked to do very demanding movements in a consistant outline. But he says he loves dressage and i think he is like me. loves the sport but modern sport well... is different than it used to be
 
Its about getting a balance. Competitions these days seem to be more about getting prizes and the glory than about the love of horses and welfare.

I love dressage do not get me wrong, but with things like rollkur and spiked boots for show jumping, I have to wonder.
 
Not a fan of spiked boots OR hyperflexion of the neck myself. Definitely not, but seeing the video on youtube just seemed like the proverbial straw.... surely, all riders are not animal abusers. I had thought of buying Dr. Heuschmann's book, but it seems he is being very dramatic about the whole thing, so perhaps it's not for me.

SuzyQ
 
No, maybe dramatic was the wrong term. But surely, if horses were breaking their jaws and "killed", something would be done about it? Perhaps I am just being naive.

SuzyQ
 
well killed is a dramatic word, i'd maybe use ruined. I head a story (posibly on here, can't remember) about a vet visiting a horse, he ran his hand down the horses back and he practically sat down prompting owner to say "Oh he's a dressage horse, they're meant to do that" what the vet said is unrepeatable.

Heard of broken jaws. Stress fractures from constant hauling but heard that from other disciplines using long shanked bits.

Would like to point out that i do belive the vast majority of dressage riders (and other disciplines) care about thier horses and know what is normal and what isn't
 
This clip is taken completely out of context, you need to read the book to see what he means. In the book he discusses there ways of training a horse:
- with a very strong hand, keeping the horse's neck down, but without generating impulsion. He rejects this as being harmful to the horse and gives a clear account of why it is a bad way of training as it does not lead to real collection and why it causes physiological problems.
- rollkur or hyperflexion - in parts he accepts that this is slightly better than the above as in the right hands it does involve impulsion so the back end is not divorced from the front end, but he makes a strong case of why it really damages the top muscles in the horse's neck and back.
- through the back. Teaching the horse to work from behind, through the back and into a contact. This applies to both long and low and collected work and the principle is always the same: power is generated from behind and held in front, always working for a relaxed and swinging back.
 
I thought a strong hand keeping the neck down and rollkur were the same things?

As with everything in life, its about finding a balance.
 
No, at least not according to this guy or my understanding of it, although as you can imagine these things are controvercial!

Rollkur brings the nose in, almost touching the horse's body. This is not a position for riding a test in, it's a training position. It extends the neck and back muscle. People who use it, like Anky, will say that it has to be used by someone who knows what they are doing, it must be backed up by effective leg aids to create impulsion and is not suitable for every horse.

A horse ridden with a strong hand, usually means a rider who is holding on to the bit, head and neck and pulling back in order to create something which in the front half of the horse looks like an outline. If you look at the back half though you can see that the back is collapsed under the rider's weight and the hindlegs are pushing out the back, so this looks like a horse of two halves.

"The Tug of War" has some brilliant photos and diagrams to explain all these different ways of going and does a good job of showing what happens with incorrect training in the higher levels. Very good explanations of what is wrong with extended trots that are merely about flicking the front legs forward and no real impulsion from behind and some good stuff on how piaffe and passage can go wrong if the weight is not under on the back legs.
 
i don't know about the top dressage riders and how hard they hold on to the mouth. i used to hack a nice mare who's owner did some low level dressage. she gave me a lesson on her one day and i was horrified at how tightly/hard she wanted me to hold on to her. this wasn't a strong horse at all and i just felt sick about what she must be feeling in her mouth.
My own horse has a very sensitive mouth and i can never imagine making her put up with that. she would prob send me into orbit if i tried lol
 
Lol, before we let anyone loose with any of the driving horses they always go on a "rein tutor" first, it's a system of pullys and weights that teaches your the appropriate contact. It is common practice amoung drivers to use similar systems, johnny arden even has one with horses head on so you can see how a much a small pull can influence the horse. Its also used for refresher courses and when moving to multiples. Why riders don't use something similar commonly i'll never know.
 
I've never really heard of hyperflexion before but from those vids in youtube i can't see why anyone would do it for dressage (and there were lots riding tests in it) since dressage is supposed to be about relaxed horses isn't it and i always thought it was bad to be even 'behind the bit' let alone to extremes like that. Silly people.

In relation to the video i think its common sense that anyone who injures their horse by the tack or methods they use needs to re-evaluate what they are doing. I've heard of broken jaws and cut tongues and mouths. Also i know a lot of serious competition horses can develop leg problems later in life in tendons etc. So i think in the vid the guy is making sense with what he says.
 
You are entirely right loads of people ride with a stong hand, both amateurs and professionals, I don't think it is limited to top dressage riders. In essence they teach their horse to lean on the bit and expect to be held up which is disasterous for any more collected/advanced work and for the well-being of the horse. The guy in the video is a very senior vet and I think he was referring to the kinds of mouth, limb and back problems he tends to see from people using rough or wrong training practices.

You don't see that many people using rollkur at the lower levels, but I suspect this might be because it is a relatively new idea and in years to come people may be trying it out - perhaps in a misguided attempt to copy Anky?
 
Oooh *LMAO* (And I don't normally swear) - I have seen the rest of the clip now and this chap doesn't pull his punches. My favourite quote (I wonder if it was aimed at anyone specific): People who cannot hold their horses don't have a dressage horse. They have a trained monkey that has learned to do some special steps". Meouch... or something. Is the book funny?

SuzyQ
 
No it's not particularly funny. I think it's quite a hot topic and he really stepped in the middle of the debate with the book. Some bits are a little bit techical on the anatomy of the horse, but not horribly so. Overall I think he explains things very clearly and the photos are a real eye-openner (I am a crappy amateur who has never ridden passage and piaffe, but it was still interesting to see the different outlines and I could understand what he was saying about how different training methods resulted in doing the movements in different ways).
 
Hello again,

I have now read the book, and I have to admit it was an eye opener for me as well. So just a quick note to apologise for my initial post. I suppose someone has to stick their nose out to highlight these issues. So thanks
smile.gif


(And, no... it wasn't a particularly funny book, but you can tell from the interview the man has a sense of humour)

SuzyQ
 
He's a very passionate person and I think gets a little generalising at times but he came to prominence during the height of the "anti-rolkur" debate and a lot of people involved on both sides were pretty aggressive.

He does make some very good points and is, by nature, a scientist so he is trying to use facts. As I said, I think he gets a bit "enthusiastic" sometimes but that doesn't mean he's completely off base either. It's food for thought . . .

I'd agree about having a strong contact on a horse for general riding . . . don't people think how soft a horse's mouth is (no different from our own) and how uncomfortable that must be? Not to mention how it interferes with the horse's athletic ability?

Riding is so much easier and more enjoyable - for everyone involved - if it's light and that's well within anyone's grasp, no matter what level they aspire to.
 
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