Going in an outline then snatching....

Queenbee

Queenbee

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How would you deal with a young horse that rides in a nice natural outline (by choice) but a few seconds in snatches forward or down... I want to encourage him to maintain the outline without picking a fight, he rides in a lovely outline in both walk and trot but snatches, I've taken the approach of not reacting, letting him stretch etc, but to be honest he is strong enough to maintain the outline now and his behaviour isn't lessening, it's not head shaking... Just a behaviour if that makes sense... If ridden on a buckle, he doesn't do this, take up a light contact he assumes this outline then acts the pansy... I don't want a fight and I don't want to jab him in the mouth, but when he snatches... This sometimes happens no matter how light I hold the reins... Frankly I'm sick of being pulled forward. Any suggestions?
 
Have you tried riding him with the reins off the noseband to see if he still does it? What does he do on the lunge with sidereins? What does he on the lunge with sidereins with a rider on top not touching the reins?
 
Mine does this and it drives me insane being yanked forward suddenly, she also leans generally. I think it is basically her being fed up and evading. She does it on a loose rein as well though, and we mostly hack. I have found 'giving her nothing to pull against' doesn't work, pulling back doesn't work, and I am happy for her to stretch but not right down to the floor when trotting on the road.

I did at first have the view that she needed to build up more muscle or was stretching her back, but now I think it is just a habit/evasion/extension of leaning and/or fussing with the bit, so considering change of bit or even trialling bitless as she is very sedate anyway.

So I don't know, but I sympathise, on the plus side it is a good test of core strength :-)
 
jemima*askin said:
Have you tried riding him with the reins off the noseband to see if he still does it? What does he do on the lunge with sidereins? What does he on the lunge with sidereins with a rider on top not touching the reins?
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Lunging with side reins he snatches too, especially forwards and down... Riding on a long rein for dressage he will get 9/10's. it's his preferred mode ;) even in trot, he would rather be ridden on a long rein at the mo with stretching down, he is in a neue Schule loose ring double jointed snaffle, I've fiddled with the cheek pieces changing placement in the mouth, he tends to 'chew on the bit' quite a lot (every other step!) so wondering if another bit may be more suited to him.

P.s teeth checked and fine.

He comes in nicely, then just acts the prat... He is a lot more full of himself too at the mo, as a result has just gone on a mag supplement.

mandwhy said:
Mine does this and it drives me insane being yanked forward suddenly, she also leans generally. I think it is basically her being fed up and evading. She does it on a loose rein as well though, and we mostly hack. I have found 'giving her nothing to pull against' doesn't work, pulling back doesn't work, and I am happy for her to stretch but not right down to the floor when trotting on the road.

I did at first have the view that she needed to build up more muscle or was stretching her back, but now I think it is just a habit/evasion/extension of leaning and/or fussing with the bit, so considering change of bit or even trialling bitless as she is very sedate anyway.

So I don't know, but I sympathise, on the plus side it is a good test of core strength :-)
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Lateral work? He might snatch when he gets a bit unbalanced or feeling it's hard work or gets bored. I would put on a circle with slight leg yield and progressively increase the time I ask the exercise for and progress to more difficult lateral work when this is easy. That might get his brain working/focusing on something else.
 
Palindrome said:
Lateral work? He might snatch when he gets a bit unbalanced or feeling it's hard work or gets bored. I would put on a circle with slight leg yield and progressively increase the time I ask the exercise for and progress to more difficult lateral work when this is easy. That might get his brain working/focusing on something else.
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I definatley agree he needs some brain food! I think he is needing that 'next step' in his training. Schooling wise, we don't go into the school much, so everything is done in a straight line on a hack... I definatley feel he is weaker on one side than the other, he falls out through his shoulder on one rein on the lunge, interestingly though he only does this if/where he is being lunged along the outside of the school... Normally I've found that if a horse doesn't have a barrier it falls out... He is the complete opposite. When lunging against the outer of the school he gets complacent and falls out at the shoulder literally looking in at me. My concern is that I know he is strong enough to hold this outline on a hack, he will literally drop into an outline, take a few steps and then get pissy, if I ask for flexion, he will hold for longer, if I take the approach of 6steps walk, 6 steps trot and repeat, it does help, but I can't seem to get focus from him and physically he is able to hold this position... It's a bit frustrating! I don't want to force it, as naturally he is taking and willing to take a lovely outline, just not to maintain it, even for more than about 5 steps!

In two weeks time we are cracking on in the school, just getting the in hand shows out of the way. My concern is that he used to be more willing and able to hold this outline for a longer period of time than of late
 
Ah, something has just caught at the back of my mind. This is a rather stuffy youngster who has been lunged several times a week in a pessoa? That's the chap, yes?

In that case forget about fiddling with the front, he needs to be pushed forward with little or no contact until he realises that a) he has to go somewhere and b) he's not going to get socked in the teeth each time takes a stride. As he relaxes more and works better his back will come up, meaning he'll step under and his head will come to a more "acceptable" position.
 
jemima*askin said:
Ah, something has just caught at the back of my mind. This is a rather stuffy youngster who has been lunged several times a week in a pessoa? That's the chap, yes?

In that case forget about fiddling with the front, he needs to be pushed forward with little or no contact until he realises that a) he has to go somewhere and b) he's not going to get socked in the teeth each time takes a stride. As he relaxes more and works better his back will come up, meaning he'll step under and his head will come to a more "acceptable" position.
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No not lunged in Pessoa for about three weeks and before for about two to three weeks for at max ten mins and mostly in walk, this was an issue before the Pessoa although I understand what you are saying, the Pessoa may have had an impact.

I do not fiddle with the front at all, never have with Ben, he is ridden with the absolute loosest contact, everything comes from behind. He is always driven forward. He rides into the reins which are akin to washing lines... Always have been.

He is exhibiting this behaviour when his back is up and he is stepping under.
 
Agree with Jemima... Olive did this... A lot! So annoying and it hurt my back when it was sudden or in a chain of snatches. It's an aversion. He needs riding forward on a loose rein, if he snatches give it away again and send him forward.

Just read that he does this when going forward which if he was truly forward he would find difficult to do I would think. Do you have a vid?
 
Billie1007 said:
Agree with Jemima... Olive did this... A lot! So annoying and it hurt my back when it was sudden or in a chain of snatches. It's an aversion. He needs riding forward on a loose rein, if he snatches give it away again and send him forward.

Just read that he does this when going forward which if he was truly forward he would find difficult to do I would think. Do you have a vid?
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No, no video but can try and get someone to take one tomorrow so you can see :)

He doesn't find it difficult driving forward with his head stretching down... He flies along doing this quite happily, but evades if he is required to have any sort of contact for long, since he is grinding on the bit... I do wonder if he is just uncomfortable with this.
 
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TigerTail said:
mouth education needed - stationary flexions in hand then inhand lateral work.
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He was well mouthed, professionallu broken and was riding well so i dont think it's that simple... He was fine.. Could hold his position fine for much longer periods. Now he isn't, ground work is good and established. Teeth are fine. Saddle fine... He feels like a horse that just can't focus.
 
It is the old outline question again;), he needs to go forward obviously but to a contact on a long, not loose rein, the hands needs to be able to remain steady and allow but not throw the rein away, he should be able to stay long and stretch down also flex left or right as asked while remaining on a long rein and consistent contact.
Do not try to get him up until he can stay where you want on the long rein without losing the contact, as he starts to gain strength and pushes more from behind he should then start to come up and carry himself more easily.
Try not to confuse light hands with being too loose in the contact, young horses often lean and to some extent need that support while they find their balance, snatching is often a sign the rider is being too inconsistent in their attempts to be soft in the hand.
Give him time with no contact going on a loose rein so you can be clearer when picking up onto a long rein making sure he is really moving forward in a good rhythm at all times.
 
Queenbee said:
He doesn't find it difficult driving forward with his head stretching down... He flies along doing this quite happily, but evades if he is required to have any sort of contact for long, since he is grinding on the bit... I do wonder if he is just uncomfortable with this.
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When he is doing this he *must* be on the forehand, you need to forget about the 'outline' and get him working from behind. And, yes, he does sound as if he is uncomfortable with the bit as well.
 
be positive said:
It is the old outline question again;), he needs to go forward obviously but to a contact on a long, not loose rein, the hands needs to be able to remain steady and allow but not throw the rein away, he should be able to stay long and stretch down also flex left or right as asked while remaining on a long rein and consistent contact.
Do not try to get him up until he can stay where you want on the long rein without losing the contact, as he starts to gain strength and pushes more from behind he should then start to come up and carry himself more easily.
Try not to confuse light hands with being too loose in the contact, young horses often lean and to some extent need that support while they find their balance, snatching is often a sign the rider is being too inconsistent in their attempts to be soft in the hand.
Give him time with no contact going on a loose rein so you can be clearer when picking up onto a long rein making sure he is really moving forward in a good rhythm at all times.
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See this is I think related to the issue, I ride on a long rein, so that as soon as he brings himself into an outline i can take this in and there is a slight but definite contact... This is what he resists to, every time! If I let the reins sag, no problem, we have a lovely outline and he relaxes for the most part, he does snatch and stretch but far less, more what I would expect from a young uneducated horse. If I don't let the reins say and there is a light contact... This is what he reacts to, no matter how quiet I am with my hands, he responds to being driven forward under saddle now but seems to really take offence to the reins, every other step he is grinding his teeth down on the bit... Not something I've really acknowledged before but now I wonder if this is the issue...

He goes into a nice outline, holds it for a few seconds, gets it to a point where it feels established then boom... Forward and/or down... It's not a strength issue, if that I'm sure, it's not an impulsion issue, by this time on a hack his back is up and hocks driving forward, he is striding out nicely and is well warmed up...

If I were to make an assessment in human terms... It's like he can do it but just won't/can't be bothered. It's far easier to evade, he knows he can evade and so he does.


I suppose my main questions are could it be the bit... What with the consistent grinding etc?
How to stop this reaction without jabbing him in the mouth, I'm not even asking how to keep him in an outline, just to stop this lunging without making it a battle with the victim being his mouth.
 
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Pearlsasinger said:
When he is doing this he *must* be on the forehand, you need to forget about the 'outline' and get him working from behind. And, yes, he does sound as if he is uncomfortable with the bit as well.
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He is working from behind and is not on the forehand, (well he is at the start of the hack until he relaxes at the moment!) I'm not in any way focused on an outline, my hands never interfere with his mouth unless he causes this by snatching forward. I consistently do halt, walk and trot transitions plus rein back, and lots of hill work always driving forwards. if he goes into an outline it is from self carriage out of choice... I generally have no contact whatsoever with his mouth unless we are cantering or a car is passing. Everything is down to him.

With regards to the bit... Do you have any reccomendations, something comfortable, I'm not certain that the double link isn't causing too much movement in his mouth... It's always been a fab bit for me but just doesn't seem the one for him.
 
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Natural instinct is to say that you think he is forwards but he doesn't sound it. Perhaps you are just used to it?

I would be tempted to school with a loose rein, low contact when he stays with the loose contact praise and release, take it again, drive him forwards, praise and release, drive him forwards. Is he attempting to balance himself in your hands? Give him nothing to balance on and try a different bit, it could be a combination of things.

I don't want to be rude but the last vid we had of Ben showed a lovely boy but nothing like the forward, striding pone you describe here. Either there has been a complete transformation, which there well could have been as it took Olive about 8 weeks to go from motor biking doofus to balanced, self carrying walk and trot test bonanza pony, or you're not seeing it as someone else might.
 
If you think that he is uncomfortable with a double link bit, try a mullen-mouthed bit. But purely going by what you have said on this thread, I'm afraid I think that Billie007 is probably right about his way of going, perhaps an up-to-date video would help to clarify. Do you have someone on the ground to help you?
 
Queenbee said:
See this is I think related to the issue, I ride on a long rein, so that as soon as he brings himself into an outline... There is a slight but definite contact... This is what he resists to, every time! If I let the reins sag, no problem, we have a lovely outline and he relaxes for the most part, he does snatch and stretch but far less, more what I would expect from a young uneducated horse. If I don't let the reins say and there is a light contact... This is what he reacts to, no matter how quiet I am with my hands, he responds to being driven forward under saddle now but seems to really take offence to the reins, every other step he is grinding his teeth down on the bit... Not something I've really acknowledged before but now I wonder if this is the issue...

He goes into a nice outline, holds it for a few seconds, gets it to a point where it feels established then boom... Forward and/or down... It's not a strength issue, if that I'm sure, it's not an impulsion issue, by this time on a hack his back is up and hocks driving forward, he is striding out nicely and is well warmed up...

If I were to make an assessment in human terms... It's like he can do it but just won't/can't be bothered. It's far easier to evade, he knows he can evade and so he does.


I suppose my main questions are could it be the bit... What with the consistent grinding etc?
How to stop this reaction without jabbing him in the mouth, I'm not even asking how to keep him in an outline, just to stop this lunging without making it a battle with the victim being his mouth.
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You are still thinking outline rather than frame, an outline can be long and low or a prelim level or GP it is all relevant to the stage of training, a lovely outline can be working almost with the nose on the ground if that is what you are asking for.
He sounds unhappy in his mouth and a change of bit would be a good idea, something really soft that he can take hold of and even be a little strong in may help.
I don't think horses think like we do, can't be bothered is unlikely, he is still a weak 4 year old, possibly teething who is responding as many young horses do, he doesn't know yet what is really required, it takes years for some horses to learn to carry themselves properly, or what we would call correctly, they take time to build up real core strength, balance and confidence however strong they appear the muscles needed to carry a rider and remain balanced need building up over a period of time, he has only been in work a few months, he probably feels your stress levels are rather high and is reacting to this as well.
I would change the bit, go back to basics with him, they all benefit from a step back at times, enjoy the good bits and stop worrying too much when it is not perfect, he will settle, he will get stronger in time and for every step forward there will be the inevitable step back to test you but it is all going in the right direction it just doesn't always feel that way.
 
Billie1007 said:
Natural instinct is to say that you think he is forwards but he doesn't sound it. Perhaps you are just used to it?

I would be tempted to school with a loose rein, low contact when he stays with the loose contact praise and release, take it again, drive him forwards, praise and release, drive him forwards. Is he attempting to balance himself in your hands? Give him nothing to balance on and try a different bit, it could be a combination of things.

I don't want to be rude but the last vid we had of Ben showed a lovely boy but nothing like the forward, striding pone you describe here. Either there has been a complete transformation, which there well could have been as it took Olive about 8 weeks to go from motor biking doofus to balanced, self carrying walk and trot test bonanza pony, or you're not seeing it as someone else might.
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No billie, he is forward, his behaviour whilst hacking is completely different to his behaviour in the school. I can feel when his back comes up and he starts stepping under... I am under no illusions, he is working from behind, he is driving forwards, my hands are still, I do not have a contact therefore I am not trying to pull him into a contact neither is he trying to balance himself on my hands... It is how I have described it.

There has been no complete transformation in the sense that you are talking about. Ben has always been very forwards and willing on hacks, in the school, not so much although yes now he is starting to show a significant transformation there.


I have a feeling that there are a number of factors to play here, I now have him on a mag calmer and hope to see a difference in the next few days as he is pretty tense on hacks at the moment and it takes a lot longer for him to relax and focus than normal, and I do think something is amiss with the bit, although I don't want to change without giving it some decent assessment of what would be more suitable if this bit is not. I kind of feel that perhaps as he drops his head his bit adjusts in his mouth and then he snatches as a result. Could be completely wrong, but it is more and more a gut feeling of mine on this.
 
Yes I do have someone on the ground... But I will refer you to my response to billie... He is by no means backward and I've spent many years getting to know the feel of a horse working correctly through its back and hind and when it isn't...my mare was a skilled evader ;)
 
Also back the leg up with the schooling whip when he snatches. Just a gentle flick. So that he step forward into the contact. I agree that he isn't going forward into an accepting rein.
 
be positive said:
You are still thinking outline rather than frame, an outline can be long and low or a prelim level or GP it is all relevant to the stage of training, a lovely outline can be working almost with the nose on the ground if that is what you are asking for.
He sounds unhappy in his mouth and a change of bit would be a good idea, something really soft that he can take hold of and even be a little strong in may help.
I don't think horses think like we do, can't be bothered is unlikely, he is still a weak 4 year old, possibly teething who is responding as many young horses do, he doesn't know yet what is really required, it takes years for some horses to learn to carry themselves properly, or what we would call correctly, they take time to build up real core strength, balance and confidence however strong they appear the muscles needed to carry a rider and remain balanced need building up over a period of time, he has only been in work a few months, he probably feels your stress levels are rather high and is reacting to this as well.
I would change the bit, go back to basics with him, they all benefit from a step back at times, enjoy the good bits and stop worrying too much when it is not perfect, he will settle, he will get stronger in time and for every step forward there will be the inevitable step back to test you but it is all going in the right direction it just doesn't always feel that way.
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Yep, I agree, and yes I keep using the word outline when that's not correct for what I mean!

I have considered the teeth issue as he has become a bit more mouthy recently he likes to nibble! There are certainly no caps coming off but is suppose things could be shuffling in there.

When he is carrying himself, he has it perfectly, he strikes of into trot with such exquisite bounce... But then suddenly snatch! And my primary concern is if I'm not holding him incredibly loose on the rein, it catches his mouth.

Yo and I discussed it and as a result I've just been trying to let him do it and work himself through it but its come to a point where I feel a bit change may be the answer.

In a fortnight after rc... I'm starting schooling and will be having a couple of lessons a month to try and sort this out. I will try another bit in the meantime and see how he reacts with that in. :)
 
zigzag said:
If he is snatching and lunging forwards he IS NOT going forwards properly, if he was he would accept the contact,
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Ok, he is going forward well, back up, tracking up and assumes outline, then after x amount of strides, flings nose forward and drops head long and low, still maintaining a nice forward rhythm.

charlie76 said:
Also back the leg up with the schooling whip when he snatches. Just a gentle flick. So that he step forward into the contact. I agree that he isn't going forward into an accepting rein.
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. I have tried this, although not consistently... Will try again :)

charlie76 said:
Loose ring snaffle with no joint and drop nose band.. stopped mine doing it.
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He is in a loose ring double jointed snaffle. He doesn't open his mouth so am happy to keep him in his cavasson at the moment. Have however tried adjusting the height of the bit in his mouth and height of my hands... Strangest thing is he is so soft mouthed... I have his physio out in a fortnight just to check everything out for peace of mind.
 
Mine is also in a double joint loose ring, and having read all the comments I expect in our case it is a lot to do with my girl being very nappy and backward thinking (quite literally until recently) although on hacks in company she can be quite forward compared to when schooling. She is almost 6 and very babyish so does not have a great attention span!

I want to try a change of bit but not sure what, let us know if you try any that help :-)
 
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