Going in an outline then snatching....

[Queenbee]

Side reins and a schooling whip then.....

I also want to add QB that whenever you post like this you do always seem to know the answer already!

Grow up billie, I quite clearly do not know the answer or I would have sorted it and not be asking, I do know he is going forward, he always has on hacks, I also know he is working from behind, even though he has more Fizz and spark than in the past, after a canter he starts relaxing and working properly from behind but his behaviour up front is still the same. I ride with no contact at the moment... This is not knowing the answer it is just fact! I have described my feelings about the bit and asked for advice, im not looking for a stronger bit just something more comfortable if indeed this is the cause, as for the last 10 years ive only ridden in this style and a dutch gag for jumping ebony. I've asked for advice on minimising the snatching without restricting him with my hands, ride in side reins... Well what a helpful snarky suggestion. And riding with a schooling whip, well at the moment he is spooky and stops at shadows, I let him stand, give him a pat and ask with my leg... If no response a tickle with the whip... But call me evil and inadequate for carrying a schooling whip

Imagine a hypothetical situation, a forward going horse who you knew was using its back end properly and exhibiting this behaviour, whose teeth had been checked and was chomping/grinding on the bit... What would you surmise, what would you reccomend bit wise?

I can't help being able to come up with responses to queries and suggestions, its called providing information to the situation!

 

[Queenbee]

A forward going horse can be on the forehand.

Yes they can i totally agree, and he has been in the past, he still is in the school but on hacks this is not the case in general. At the moment at the beginning of a hack he is a bit sharp and is more on the forehand than he has been in the past, but after about ten mins he starts to relax and work properly... I do a hell of a lot of work on a hack to ensure that his arse is the driving force. Our hacks take a lot longer because of all the transitions and rein backs for this very purpose. I've put lots of work into ensuring that he is working and building up properly. More recently I had been allowing him to work in his preferred long and low outline because of the good work it was doing to his back and topline. But now this is all he seems to focus on. He wants it this way, and I don't want to fight him, if I try and gingerly take up a contact and slowly encourage him from long and low, snatch and we are back down to long and low striding along, and I worry about this snatching jabbing his mouth

 

[Goldenstar]

A forward going horse can be on the forehand.

Exactly, if he's snatching he's taking a dive forwards and downwards .
This is carriage issue .
It's a very common stage in young horses and as a rider it's time to think of up through the wither and shoulders and for the horse to begin to learn how to gain and maintain self carriage .
I would try slowing the rhytmn a fraction and see if that helps .
I would try some different snaffles ( a simple myler snaffle often helps).
I would makes lots of transitions.
I would do lots of pole work.
Have fun.

 

[Queenbee]

Agree with Jemima... Olive did this... A lot! So annoying and it hurt my back when it was sudden or in a chain of snatches. It's an aversion. He needs riding forward on a loose rein, if he snatches give it away again and send him forward.

Just read that he does this when going forward which if he was truly forward he would find difficult to do I would think. Do you have a vid?

Just re read this billie after your later criticism of my response... Every time Ben snatches at I do drop the reins because as I have said I do not want to jab him in mouth, and as long as it is a safe place to do so (which it mostly is) I pretty much hold the buckle and trot on, to which he assumes an 'outline' then snatches long and low, then repeats and repeats, and repeats, whilst maintaining a steady forward rhythm. I alternate this with 6strides of walk, six strides of trot, trying to keep the amount of each pace short enough so he does not break out of working nicely.

I'm not just sitting there like an idiot holding him in while he looks like a cammel and expecting it all to come together with inadequate aids

 

[Queenbee]

Exactly, if he's snatching he's taking a dive forwards and downwards .
This is carriage issue .
It's a very common stage in young horses and as a rider it's time to think of up through the wither and shoulders and for the horse to begin to learn how to gain and maintain self carriage .
I would try slowing the rhytmn a fraction and see if that helps .
I would try some different snaffles ( a simple myler snaffle often helps).
I would makes lots of transitions.
I would do lots of pole work.
Have fun.

We already do a shed load of transitions (more than I've ever done in my life), pole work wise, yes I definitely want to add some of this into our work out, as I've said we will be starting proper schooling in a fortnight (ie in the school) where he is still sluggish, but I really want to get him responsive and working well in that environment so will be introducing lots of pole work then. I will look into the myler, I'm by no means saying the bit is a fix all but I really do get the feeling its not helping matters . I will play with rhythms although I think they are ok - but will definitely asses this when on board. It doesn't feel like he is diving forward with his body... More with just his head/nose if that makes sense? But all these suggestions/pointers are fab thank you GS

 

[be positive]

I just read your response above if you drop the reins every time he snatches you are rewarding him so it is becoming a habit, you go into trot on a long rein, light contact, he snatches, you release contact just what he wants you to do, he wont break if you keep a hold.
Goldenstar has suggested going slightly slower, this may help, you will have a little longer to keep him relaxed and balanced in the first few strides and he may then start to stay there for longer but giving him no contact and a totally loose rein will not help at this stage. I would also do some extended periods of trot not constantly doing transitions, to break the pattern a bit, he needs to be kept thinking forward, if as soon as he starts to get into the swing of things you come back to walk he may just start to get a bit frustrated, mix things up and keep it fun.
I am not sure I would be doing rein back on him, it can be negative and make them backward thinking, I do not like to see young horses going backwards unless it is a corrective measure, it also puts a lot of strain on their hocks, something to avoid when they are still growing.

 

[Goldenstar]

It is very easy to be going just a fraction to fast .
Often because youngsters don't have consistent reactions to the driving aids so we chase them just a little out of their optimum rhytmn to make up fot the lack of reaction.

 

[Queenbee]

I just read your response above if you drop the reins every time he snatches you are rewarding him so it is becoming a habit, you go into trot on a long rein, light contact, he snatches, you release contact just what he wants you to do, he wont break if you keep a hold.
Goldenstar has suggested going slightly slower, this may help, you will have a little longer to keep him relaxed and balanced in the first few strides and he may then start to stay there for longer but giving him no contact and a totally loose rein will not help at this stage. I would also do some extended periods of trot not constantly doing transitions, to break the pattern a bit, he needs to be kept thinking forward, if as soon as he starts to get into the swing of things you come back to walk he may just start to get a bit frustrated, mix things up and keep it fun.
I am not sure I would be doing rein back on him, it can be negative and make them backward thinking, I do not like to see young horses going backwards unless it is a corrective measure, it also puts a lot of strain on their hocks, something to avoid when they are still growing.

It is very easy to be going just a fraction to fast .
Often because youngsters don't have consistent reactions to the driving aids so we chase them just a little out of their optimum rhytmn to make up fot the lack of reaction.

Thank you both, I will bear all this in mind tomorrow morning and try a few variations out . Bp, we don't do any serious RB... Probably about 10 halts a hack (maybe even more as we halt for most cars approaching from behind at the moment as he is a bit fizzed at the start of the hack) with two or sometimes three halts asking for one step back not full on RB, and only then if I think he needs some extra encouragement getting his arse working, although now with the canter work he normally doesn't need this encouragement after a canter and before he is too tense to bother asking. I hope with the calmer that in a few days he will be less tense, at the movement he is alert to everything on the early part of the hack...even trying to jog out of the yard

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm torn between "passive blocking" and dropping him when he does it. With mine, I drop them (sharply!) as I don't want them to lean - which is natural mode for highland and cob types. Blocking might have advantages with Ben as you don't want to reward him by giving when he snatches, as GS says. Plus leg and schooling whip.

However, I also agree that he probably needs some basic mouth work revisiting, and that it seems unlikely he is truly forward and off his forehand, at his level of education. I don't think you can solve issues like this with bits (in most cases - unless the bit is the problem, which is the minority of cases), only with training and improving the contact - from both ends.

If you can, get someone to film him - for your own benefit, you don't have to stick it on here as fodder for the wolves

 

[Hippona]

Similar problem with one of mine....forward,active and willing....prone to leaning and a little on the forehand.....young and unbalanced.
The issue was a mouth one....No actual problem as such but a large tongue and not much room.
I tried every bit under the sun and he would still evade....as you describe, snatching and head on the floor.

I swapped to a Micklem....same bit (Jeffries eggbutt lozenge revolver) and he was vastly improved....No chomping,grinding or snatching.

. He also had changed shape.'..got wider....and the points on his saddle were too long so that's been changed also....I blame that for some of the "head on floor" action.

 

[Kat]

Be Positive and Goldenstar have made good points.

What comes through to me from your posts is that you love Ben very much and are anxious to give him a perfect start and not mess him up. I know that feeling!

I went through a similar stage and basically I was being too nice. It took a clinic with a very high level dressage judge to make me realise that I could hold a firm contact without hauling my horse's head in or socking her in the gob.

Basically I wasn't giving her enough contact to work into. The snatching was partially a result of this. As a young horse she didn't have the true self carriage to hold a frame without a proper contact to work with.

I held a firmer contact slowed the rhythm but pushed for a bigger pace and she became more steady in her head. No tack changes.

 

[Hippona]

Be Positive and Goldenstar have made good points.

What comes through to me from your posts is that you love Ben very much and are anxious to give him a perfect start and not mess him up. I know that feeling!

I went through a similar stage and basically I was being too nice. It took a clinic with a very high level dressage judge to make me realise that I could hold a firm contact without hauling my horse's head in or socking her in the gob.

Basically I wasn't giving her enough contact to work into. The snatching was partially a result of this. As a young horse she didn't have the true self carriage to hold a frame without a proper contact to work with.

I held a firmer contact slowed the rhythm but pushed for a bigger pace and she became more steady in her head. No tack changes.

Absolutely agree with that.

 

[Mongoose11]

Side reins and a schooling whip then.....

Ahhhh now this has clearly been misinterpreted. It was supposed to be funny, hence the winky smiley but I know how smiley can go wrong. I have ridden in both side reins and used a schooling whip so not sure what your beef is there QB. This was a tongue in cheek 'strap him down, send him forward' comment but you had a sense of humour fail or my humour didn't shine through, one or the other.

I would have said it was more than appropriate to ride with a schooling whip so...

As for the bit where I said you always know the answers what I meant was sometimes you don't seem too accepting of the advice, you've always, without fail tried it and it didn't work.... That is only MY humble opinion. Sorry if it offends.

One thing that narks me is when people put words in my mouth. I didn't for one second suggest that you were evil or inadequate for carrying a schooling whip. You are very easily excited QB. Talk about over reaction!

Your interpretation also flys in the face of my earlier helpful advice so something just doesn't add up here. Not one to hold a grudge are we QB?

Thank you for the 'Maam'ly' reminder to grow up, noted.

 

[Kat]

Jftd love the passive blocking v dropping description.

I was told to just hold the same contact and if she socks herself in the gob that is her problem. I do drop her sometimes too but if you do this every time it can act as a reward of mean you get no work done. I think the important thing is that you decide what happens and don't let the horse set the agenda.

I also agree that there is no way that at 4 he is truly forward and off the forehand, they just don't have the strength or balance. He will need help to get the speed and rhythm balanced, to keep the activity without it all falling out the front door.

 

[JillA]

Imagine if you yourself were expected to spend up to an hour with your chin tucked into your chest? Try it - for a few minutes it is fine, then you get more and more ache in the muscles now brought in to play that you don't usualy use. All he is doing is saying "ouch now, need to stretch a bit" then trying his best. Give him time to build the top line and muscles he needs to do that for you - start with a few minutes, let him stretch (give before he demands and learns to do that), and build from there. He sounds like a really nice young horse - don't push him to the point where he has to argue.
Once he has built the muscles and can sustain it for longer, the way to stop him doing it as an aversion is sit up with your shoulders back and fix your hands so that you are more secure in bracing against the snatch.

 

[Hippona]

I definitely found slowing the trot helped, along with a consistent contact (after my tack issues were sorted).....I was accidentally rewarding an evasion too by dropping the contact in trying to be kind to his mouth. I really had to sort it though because the little git was almost pulling daughter out of the saddle when she rode......

 

[PolarSkye]

Jftd love the passive blocking v dropping description.

I was told to just hold the same contact and if she socks herself in the gob that is her problem. I do drop her sometimes too but if you do this every time it can act as a reward of mean you get no work done. I think the important thing is that you decide what happens and don't let the horse set the agenda.

I also agree that there is no way that at 4 he is truly forward and off the forehand, they just don't have the strength or balance. He will need help to get the speed and rhythm balanced, to keep the activity without it all falling out the front door.

Have to say that this rings true to me too . . . Kal was an absolute expert at dropping and snatching and the only thing that worked was passive resistance, i.e., letting him run into the bit and work out that if he kept his head still, the bit stayed still. I don't condone socking horses in the mouth deliberately, but I do feel that rewarding the snatch by effectively dropping the contact is counterproductive.

I also agree that youngsters (or just very green/unschooled horses, which is what I had) need quite a lot of help and support to hold it all together. It simply might be too soon to expect him to carry himself fully.

If Kal forgets himself and goes to snatch he gets sent smartly forwards or we ride a movement to redirect his attention. In addition, both Z and I school in continental reins to make it easier for us to "keep" the contact - we both found that the snatching resulted in us riding with longer and longer reins, making it harder for us to maintain an effective contact.

P

 

[charlie76]

I didn't suggest the drop to shut his mouth, just to keep the bit still and stable.
If you have always ridden in a loose ring perhaps try an eggbutt instead.
If he still persists despite you saying you have tried most suggestions on here then the kk correction bit will prob stop it.

 

[xspiralx]

Jftd love the passive blocking v dropping description.

I was told to just hold the same contact and if she socks herself in the gob that is her problem. I do drop her sometimes too but if you do this every time it can act as a reward of mean you get no work done. I think the important thing is that you decide what happens and don't let the horse set the agenda.

I also agree that there is no way that at 4 he is truly forward and off the forehand, they just don't have the strength or balance. He will need help to get the speed and rhythm balanced, to keep the activity without it all falling out the front door.

This is the exact advice I gave to a client of mine with a big young horse who snatches (and would then follow up with a bucking attempt). She was worried about his mouth. And whilst that is a valid concern, as far as I am concerned, the rider's job is to give the horse a consistent contact to work into, to give the horse a clear boundary and guidance.

If the horse snatches and gobs himself in the mouth, that's his problem - he will soon learn it is not comfortable and not worth doing. He probably feels lost if you just drop him every time he snatches, and you are essentially training him to do it if you give to him each time.

 

[Queenbee]

Be Positive and Goldenstar have made good points.

What comes through to me from your posts is that you love Ben very much and are anxious to give him a perfect start and not mess him up. I know that feeling!

I went through a similar stage and basically I was being too nice. It took a clinic with a very high level dressage judge to make me realise that I could hold a firm contact without hauling my horse's head in or socking her in the gob.

Basically I wasn't giving her enough contact to work into. The snatching was partially a result of this. As a young horse she didn't have the true self carriage to hold a frame without a proper contact to work with.

I held a firmer contact slowed the rhythm but pushed for a bigger pace and she became more steady in her head. No tack changes.

Yes I'm pretty sure to is one of those stages, and the more I chat about it on here the more I remember going through something along those lines with ebony. I suspect I'm being overly cautious and as others have said need to maintain the contact and let him realise that he can't stretch unless I choose to give the rein... Not him choosing to take it

Imagine if you yourself were expected to spend up to an hour with your chin tucked into your chest? Try it - for a few minutes it is fine, then you get more and more ache in the muscles now brought in to play that you don't usualy use. All he is doing is saying "ouch now, need to stretch a bit" then trying his best. Give him time to build the top line and muscles he needs to do that for you - start with a few minutes, let him stretch (give before he demands and learns to do that), and build from there. He sounds like a really nice young horse - don't push him to the point where he has to argue.
Once he has built the muscles and can sustain it for longer, the way to stop him doing it as an aversion is sit up with your shoulders back and fix your hands so that you are more secure in bracing against the snatch.

JillA I absolutely agree with your post in sentiment, and if I saw anyone expecting a horse to work for such an amount of time with its 'head strapped to its chest' I'd be saying the same thing. But I do not expect him to do this. Infact even with ebony, I would do a good period of stretching on a long rein for every few minutes asking for her to work in self carriage. I would also allow her a substantial amount of the hack just relaxing her head. I would say that the amount of time this work is being addressed is a maximum of 15 minutes during the middle of a hack he has mostly a warm up and relaxed ride, and then a substantial cool down period. Any work he does in the middle is always interspersed with my asking him to go long and low and stretch because this is equally important to building the muscles up. However, at the moment we aren't actually getting any real work done because of this issue.

Jftd love the passive blocking v dropping description.

I was told to just hold the same contact and if she socks herself in the gob that is her problem. I do drop her sometimes too but if you do this every time it can act as a reward of mean you get no work done. I think the important thing is that you decide what happens and don't let the horse set the agenda.

I also agree that there is no way that at 4 he is truly forward and off the forehand, they just don't have the strength or balance. He will need help to get the speed and rhythm balanced, to keep the activity without it all falling out the front door.

I'm going to try this, and will report back on our progress

I definitely found slowing the trot helped, along with a consistent contact (after my tack issues were sorted).....I was accidentally rewarding an evasion too by dropping the contact in trying to be kind to his mouth. I really had to sort it though because the little git was almost pulling daughter out of the saddle when she rode......

I didn't suggest the drop to shut his mouth, just to keep the bit still and stable.
If you have always ridden in a loose ring perhaps try an eggbutt instead.
If he still persists despite you saying you have tried most suggestions on here then the kk correction bit will prob stop it.

Ah ok, I understand now, that makes sense... I may invest in a drop and see if this helps matters, haven't seen the correction bit but will look into it, thank you

This is the exact advice I gave to a client of mine with a big young horse who snatches (and would then follow up with a bucking attempt). She was worried about his mouth. And whilst that is a valid concern, as far as I am concerned, the rider's job is to give the horse a consistent contact to work into, to give the horse a clear boundary and guidance.

If the horse snatches and gobs himself in the mouth, that's his problem - he will soon learn it is not comfortable and not worth doing. He probably feels lost if you just drop him every time he snatches, and you are essentially training him to do it if you give to him each time.

As I said the more I chat about it the more I am reminded about an issue I had with ebony, in this case she hated a contact to begin with and I had to jump her on a buckle, within a week she started to refuse, she was by then wanting a contact, once I took up the contact she started flying again...


Thank you everyone some good ideas on here.

And billie, sorry if I misinterpreted your post

 

[Mongoose11]

X

 

[JFTDWS]

Jftd love the passive blocking v dropping description.

Well, since the hand should never be "retroactive", it can only ever block passively, hold softly or give Whether you go for blocking or dropping depends on the circs, as far as I'm concerned - but if you drop, I reckon you need to back up with leg/whip sharply so it's less of a reward. It's also an art to drop sharply (rather than give softly) so that in itself can be a punishment. Used to do it all the time with my old lad, because it is not my job to carry his head for him

 

[Fluffy bunny]

What a fab thread with some really good advice! I am also guilty of being too soft with my 4 year old through fear of not wanting to 'hurt' her precious mouth.

I noticed someone mentioned continental reins. I've just got some of these so I can guage how much rein she's pinching off me what would be an average length, number of rein stops, for a good contact. I appreciate each horse is different

 

[PolarSkye]

I noticed someone mentioned continental reins. I've just got some of these so I can guage how much rein she's pinching off me what would be an average length, number of rein stops, for a good contact. I appreciate each horse is different

That was me . It would be very hard for me to tell you what a good rein length would be good for your mare, however . . . as you say, each horse is different. Kal, although tall and leggy is short coupled and has a short neck so needs a much shorter rein than something the same height but with a long TB type neck.

P

 

[SusieT]

he's not going into an outline is the problem. Either he isn't strong enough for self carriage or he isn't being ridden correctly. TBH without seeing the issue it's impossible to say what the problem is. What age is he again?

 

[Queenbee]

he's not going into an outline is the problem. Either he isn't strong enough for self carriage or he isn't being ridden correctly. TBH without seeing the issue it's impossible to say what the problem is. What age is he again?

I'm not particularly asking people to identify the problem... Just to make some suggestions, so I have a number of ideas/possibilities, I can work through and consider. He is four.

And sorry folks... There was no way I was getting on today in this awful rain . So no video today

 

[*sprinkles*]

My horse used to do this. It's very annoying. I changed his bit from a French link to something with more of a lozenge and the behaviour pretty much disappeared so perhaps he's simply not comfortable with the bit you're using? I also worked on engaging my core muscles when he went to do it so that he was unable to yank me forward.

 

[PolarSkye]

My horse used to do this. It's very annoying. I changed his bit from a French link to something with more of a lozenge and the behaviour pretty much disappeared so perhaps he's simply not comfortable with the bit you're using? I also worked on engaging my core muscles when he went to do it so that he was unable to yank me forward.

We did this too . . . also worked.

P

 

[Tnavas]

How old is this horse? I picked up 4yrs from somewhere but I'm not sure whether it was QB or someone else.

If 4 then I would be looking regularly for caps on teeth. Have wolf teeth been removed? Another consideration is bone spurs on the bars.

Next would be getting the poll checked by chiro - if the poll is out staying in any outline is uncomfortable, has he or does he ever pull back when tied up? If so then regular poll checks are crucial.

Saddle fit - young horses change shape all the time so much it's a nightmare trying to keep their saddles right. Something I discovered with my young TB was that at times his saddle would be uncomfortable directly under the riders seat. To check for this ride for 10 mins in walk, trot and canter with nothing under the saddle, then take off and check in the channel directly under the rider - if there is a grease patch or a shiny area then the saddle is making contact when the back is lifted.

Schooling wise - I'm concerned that you say you ride him on no contact - it is important to have a contact - the weight and suppleness of the contact is the important key.

I was taught by an ex Spanish Riding School person that you MUST have a contact at all times and that you MUST follow that contact wherever the horse puts its head, the feel must not change - the horse then learns to trust the contact and with trust accept with a still head. If head goes up - riders hands go up maintaining the straight line elbow hand horses mouth - if the head goes down then the hand goes down, if the head tilts the riders hands tilt.

I agree with the person who said when you give the reins when he pulls down you are rewarding him.

Any chance of seeing a video of him doing this as sometimes its easier to comment when you have seen the problem.

 

[PolarSkye]

How old is this horse? I picked up 4yrs from somewhere but I'm not sure whether it was QB or someone else.

If 4 then I would be looking regularly for caps on teeth. Have wolf teeth been removed? Another consideration is bone spurs on the bars.

Next would be getting the poll checked by chiro - if the poll is out staying in any outline is uncomfortable, has he or does he ever pull back when tied up? If so then regular poll checks are crucial.

Saddle fit - young horses change shape all the time so much it's a nightmare trying to keep their saddles right. Something I discovered with my young TB was that at times his saddle would be uncomfortable directly under the riders seat. To check for this ride for 10 mins in walk, trot and canter with nothing under the saddle, then take off and check in the channel directly under the rider - if there is a grease patch or a shiny area then the saddle is making contact when the back is lifted.

Schooling wise - I'm concerned that you say you ride him on no contact - it is important to have a contact - the weight and suppleness of the contact is the important key.

I was taught by an ex Spanish Riding School person that you MUST have a contact at all times and that you MUST follow that contact wherever the horse puts its head, the feel must not change - the horse then learns to trust the contact and with trust accept with a still head. If head goes up - riders hands go up maintaining the straight line elbow hand horses mouth - if the head goes down then the hand goes down, if the head tilts the riders hands tilt.

I agree with the person who said when you give the reins when he pulls down you are rewarding him.

Any chance of seeing a video of him doing this as sometimes its easier to comment when you have seen the problem.

All of the above.

P