Going Shoe-less....

3Beasties

3Beasties

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Don't want this to turn into a Shoe v Barefoot debate but would like some opinions and guidance about my mare. After riding her out with 3 shoes on today I am thinking that she may possibly be fine barefoot. She had lost a front shoe but during a 40 minute hack she didn't favour that hoof at all, walked out happily and was even fine to trot.

She is rising 6, ISH. Been with me since September, came fully shod and that's how she has been since. Not sure if she has ever been without.

Her diet consist of molasses free Hi-fi, one big scoop a day, and nearly ad-lib hay. Currently no grass in field but will be moving soon to better grazing (I hope!)

I would say her hooves are fairly good quality, can't say I've notice any problems with them TBH but she is toe in on her nearside fore so not sure if that would affect her in any way if I go the barefoot route. She has pulled a few shoes off over the winter which I think is a combination of having a big trot and a very muddy field!

She is currently being ridden about 5/6 times a week, hacking, all road work for at least 40 mins although this will increase as she gets fitter and more confident. Hopefully she will be somewhere with a school soon so a few days hacking will be replaced with schooling. No competing at the moment but again this is something that I hope to do at some point.

So I guess my questions are, does it sound like she could cope? Is her diet suitable? Is there anything I need to consider? How do I go about taking them off (hind first and then fronts at a later date?)?

I don't want to really go down the boot route, I tried that and failed with my TB so she either copes or she doesn't. If there's any issues then the shoes will go back on!

I have to say I've always been in the 'shoe' camp, I 'like' the look of shoes, I like the sound of shoes BUT I also understand that shoe-less would be beneficial long term, for her, and also my bank balance! (Disclaimer - my un-ridden pony is shoe-less because she can cope and my TB needs shoes, I tried unsuccessfully to go barefoot behind and he couldn't cope).

So thoughts and ideas please? Obviously I will speak to my farrier when he comes to put the shoe back on but it would be good to be a bit prepared and have an idea if that's the route I want to try....
 
Why not start with removing the hind shoes first for a shoeing cycle and see how she manages with that? If she doesn't manage without hinds well, then I would be reluctant to remove the fronts. :)
 
As she's fine on the one that's come off, why not try her without all round? Just pull the shoes and don't trim anything off. Slowly build up roadwork to let her hooves adjust.

Your diet is almost exactly the same as mine (I have some grass). You might need to restrict the grass when you move though, as to go from nothing to lots might make her footy. I'm trying to keep mine restricted enough, so they still want hay to top up on.

The thing that I have struggled with during the last couple of months, was doing enough roadwork. I can see in my mare's hooves that I haven't done enough.
 
Holly Hocks said:
Why not start with removing the hind shoes first for a shoeing cycle and see how she manages with that? If she doesn't manage without hinds well, then I would be reluctant to remove the fronts. :)
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this would be my advice as well, it's what I've done and it's worked for me :)
 
Faracat said:
As she's fine on the one that's come off, why not try her without all round? Just pull the shoes and don't trim anything off. Slowly build up roadwork to let her hooves adjust.
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The shortest ride I can do takes 40 mins on the road (assuming she doesn't nap!) is that too long? Road work is all I can do at the moment!

Faracat said:
Your diet is almost exactly the same as mine (I have some grass). You might need to restrict the grass when you move though, as to go from nothing to lots might make her footy. I'm trying to keep mine restricted enough, so they still want hay to top up on.

The thing that I have struggled with during the last couple of months, was doing enough roadwork. I can see in my mare's hooves that I haven't done enough.
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Thanks, will bare the grass intake in mind when I move, she is a good doer anyway so will probably be muzzled!
 
40 mins sounds fine. I like to think about total hours per week (but not the whole lot on one day ;)). My mare really needs a minimum of 5 hours roadwork per week. When she's fit and in consistent work, I haven't ever been able to do too much, even on the day we got totally lost and were out for hours.
 
Faracat said:
As long as you build it up slowly. Don't go straight to 3 hour hacks, 4 times a week. ;)

That's what I have found with my lot anyway. :)
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LOL, no chance of that! We're just getting over a major napping problem so are having to build up slowly!
 
Faracat said:
As long as you build it up slowly. Don't go straight to 3 hour hacks, 4 times a week. ;)

That's what I have found with my lot anyway. :)
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yes embarrassed to say I made this mistake when his backs first came off made him sore so had to put backs back on.

Second time around I did a couple of weeks of road hacks of about 45 mins a few times a week before we started to go into the woods.

Second the hoof supplement, a good one is pro hoof by progressive earth on ebay they also do just a balancer which I've heard good things about. I use forage plus hoof health balancer but that's because I need the higher levels of copper zinc etc.

Other than here another good source of advice is http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php :)
 
I would just sound a note of caution that if your TB does not manage bare on the backs only, and you keep him in the same place as you do this horse, that it's possible that you have a mineral imbalance in your land that will make it difficult for this horse to remain comfortable as well.

Be aware also that when you first pull the shoes it is not uncommon for the horse to be absolutely fine, only to go footie a few weeks later when it seems as if things 'wake up' inside the feet. A lot of people give up at that point, assuming that their horse is one of those that 'just can't do it', when in fact it goes away again if you carry on in a sensible fashion.
 
cptrayes said:
I would just sound a note of caution that if your TB does not manage bare on the backs only, and you keep him in the same place as you do this horse, that it's possible that you have a mineral imbalance in your land that will make it difficult for this horse to remain comfortable as well.
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The TB was 17 at the time and had been shod his whole life so I was probably a bit ambitious trying tbh! They will be in different places over the Summer though.

cptrayes said:
Be aware also that when you first pull the shoes it is not uncommon for the horse to be absolutely fine, only to go footie a few weeks later when it seems as if things 'wake up' inside the feet. A lot of people give up at that point, assuming that their horse is one of those that 'just can't do it', when in fact it goes away again if you carry on in a sensible fashion.
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So if she goes footy I should just carry on steadily? How long should I give it before giving up?
 
3Beasties said:
The TB was 17 at the time and had been shod his whole life so I was probably a bit ambitious trying tbh! They will be in different places over the Summer though.
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Quite possibly, but there are plenty that have done it. My friend took the shoes off a mare who had been shod almost continuously from 4 to 15 years old and she never even noticed (except that her dipped back came up overnight and she stopped grunting when walking downhill - what a guilt trip that one was :) !!)

So if she goes footy I should just carry on steadily? How long should I give it before giving up?
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Either boot and carry on or back off any work that makes her sore. Look for a gradual improvement in the following month and if no improvement is happening either shoe or take a very serious look at diet and possible metabolic issues - barefoot is highlighting just how many IR/early Cushings and other metabolic problems there really are in horses at the moment. I'm not saying she'll be rock crunching in a month, just that you really should be able to see an improvement in that time.

If she's a good doer like you say, then that can mean that they are more difficult to keep rock crunching than a horse that stays lean.

You've nothing to lose by trying. Good luck.
 
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cptrayes said:
Quite possibly, but there are plenty that have done it. My friend took the shoes off a mare who had been shod almost continuously from 4 to 15 years old and she never even noticed (except that her dipped back came up overnight and she stopped grunting when walking downhill - what a guilt trip that one was :) !!)
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Oh wow, bet she's not looked back since!

Should also have said that my TB is a poor doer that needs conditioning feeds most of the year, his diet, I think, would be completely unsuitable for going barefoot!


Either boot and carry on or back off any work that makes her sore. Look for a gradual improvement in the following month and if no improvement is happening either shoe or take a very serious look at diet and possible metabolic issues - barefoot is highlighting just how many IR/early Cushings and other metabolic problems there really are in horses at the moment. I'm not saying she'll be rock crunching in a month, just that you really should be able to see an improvement in that time.

If she's a good doer like you say, then that can mean that they are more difficult to keep rock crunching than a horse that stays lean.

You've nothing to lose by trying. Good luck.
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Thanks, that's very useful. What makes a lean horse easier to keep rock crunching then a good doer?

Do you think it's best to remove back shoes first or would you just take them all off?
 
Just like to agree with CP on both the age points (F was 19 and shod from 8 at least but likely 4 so 15 years) and the feet waking up after a few weeks (about 8 in our case iirc!)
 
3Beasties said:
Oh wow, bet she's not looked back since!

Should also have said that my TB is a poor doer that needs conditioning feeds most of the year, his diet, I think, would be completely unsuitable for going barefoot!
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Well that would explain things. Has he been tested for Cushings by any chance, he has two possible symptoms - the feet and the poor doing?


What makes a lean horse easier to keep rock crunching then a good doer?
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I think it's the other way round, what makes a fat horse difficult? Fatter horses don't seem to digest their food without causing issues with toxin-producing bacteria. The toxins get into the blood and the first thing that they seem to noticeably affect is the horse's soles - they become sensitive to stones. Technically called coriumitis, it's the very first sign of laminitis and if it carries on it will be often followed by poor white line connection.

Many of us find it essential to feed a low carb diet and to add yeast (either brewers or yea-sacc) because yeast has two effects which reduce inflammation in the gut. I have one who is footie if he doesn't get yeast, and not if he does.


Do you think it's best to remove back shoes first or would you just take them all off?
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To be minimum risk, take the backs off if you are patient enough :) I'm not !

But if she cannot cope with no hinds, it's extremely unlikely she'll cope with no fronts, though I have myself had one who had ,more difficulty with the backs than the fronts when I took all four off together.

If Oberon doesn't PM you soon, PM her, she is our guru on feeding.
 
I'm slowly creeping my way towards shoe-less... I've had my lad without back shoes for a few months now, and all going well. Strode out beautifully and looked amazing straight after, had an iffy week or 2 after about a month but now fab. After a gentle winter, at the moment we're schooling for 45mins 3/4 times a week, and hacking 3 times a week, covering around 15-20 miles, mostly on roads/lanes.

When his backs came off, I walked out in hand first, then built up time and started riding out after he was happily walking and trotting for min 30 mins on the road. His feet did look dreadful though once the nail holes started chipping - and everyone at the yard was tutting about my meanness...

I started him on Pro Hoof about 8 weeks before taking the backs off and the difference in the hoof horn and white line was incredible. He'd almost grown out all the nail holes after 6 weeks, despite not growing horn very quickly before.

Like you, I recently went out missing a shoe - had planned a group hack and he trotted up on the gravelly track outside the barn well, so off I went on the basis I could always get off and take the shortcut home if needed... Ended up doing about 6 miles and was fab. Only thing giving me pause for whipping the fronts off aswell is time of year and tutting on yard. My current plan is to enjoy the spring and summer as he is, then take fronts off when the grass stops growing as much - I've read in several places that spring isn't the best time to take off shoes due to grass growth.
 
Faracat said:
That's such a shame. I don't understand why people can't be more supportive.
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I know - the new yard we've moved to is miles better, and they're very supportive in terms of riding and generally lovely... but I suspect they think I'm a bit batty with my 'no molasses, no alfalfa, no soya' routine. It works though - you can see it in his coat and feet. Everything else is on some sort of mix, and the competition level horses often only go out for an hour or so after being ridden, if at all - poor YM nearly had a heart attack when I put coblet out naked yesterday! Dressage yard for you :D

Unfortunately the thinking here is that anything in work must have shoes - and I'm often hearing stories about horses going lame, or needing box rest after bruising feet, or the one barefoot horse they know of that is balanced every 3 weeks and wears boots unless in the arena... :rolleyes:
 
Defo talk to your farrier and keep a close eye. My boy was barefoot for months and suddenly went lame, despite the farrier telling me he had great feet. He's had fronts put back on and is suddenly sound. :confused: I'm putting Keratex hoof hardner on now because his soles are not hard enough.
 
Lego said:
I know - the new yard we've moved to is miles better, and they're very supportive in terms of riding and generally lovely... but I suspect they think I'm a bit batty with my 'no molasses, no alfalfa, no soya' routine. It works though - you can see it in his coat and feet. Everything else is on some sort of mix, and the competition level horses often only go out for an hour or so after being ridden, if at all - poor YM nearly had a heart attack when I put coblet out naked yesterday! Dressage yard for you :D

Unfortunately the thinking here is that anything in work must have shoes - and I'm often hearing stories about horses going lame, or needing box rest after bruising feet, or the one barefoot horse they know of that is balanced every 3 weeks and wears boots unless in the arena... :rolleyes:
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I was tutted at for being the woman with a treeless saddle, bitless bridle and dodgy barefoot trimmer :eek:.

Yard farrier was screaming up and down the yard about the demonic trimmers :eek:.

Then another livery took the shoes off and started using the trimmer.
Then another livery (when remedial shoes weren't working)
Then another livery
Then the YO

Before you knew it, the trimmers were being asked for advice from the shod owners and I wasn't quite the weirdo any more :rolleyes:

People fear what they don't understand. Just do what is right for your horse and you but be prepared to grow a thick skin and a deaf ear at first ;)
 
cinnamontoast said:
I'm putting Keratex hoof hardner on now because his soles are not hard enough.
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Please be careful CT. It contains Formaldehyde/Formalin which is very, very nasty stuff. It's carcinogenic and will absorb through your skin easily. It should be banned IMO. Why would you put a chemical that causes cancer on your horse's hooves?
 
You will find that a horse's diet being properly balanced will do far more for their feet than any lotion or potion you put on them.

Mine has had naked feet for 7 years now - she was not rock crunching overnight, but then we were trying to undo a years worth of bad shoeing. The same people who put bar shoes and wedges on her would be shocked if they saw how she can now do anything on any surface.
 
Saw some soles that had been painted with a coloured treatment. The colour bled out through the hoof walls about 1/3 the way up. I'd wouldn't recommend Keratex or similar treatments anyway, but this evidence made me even less keen.
 
Huumm, was planning on getting some Keratex tomorrow for my TB, will avoid it now! Is there anything I can put on his soles to improve them?

What supplement would you recommend for improving hoof quality?
 
3Beasties said:
Huumm, was planning on getting some Keratex tomorrow for my TB, will avoid it now! Is there anything I can put on his soles to improve them?

What supplement would you recommend for improving hoof quality?
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Keratex will make the sole hard if that is what you want.

Making the sole hard isn't the same thing as making it thick, though :).

A thick and healthy sole can't be painted on, it needs to come through diet and stimulation.

I've sent you some generic info in case it's of any help :).
 
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