Going to see some GSD puppies tonight....

ridebumble - what about the ethics of paying £700 for a pup ? Is that what is encouraging people to keep breeding them ?
 
I don't understand, if you have that much knowledge, why ask for help? And again, all the answers here have been constructive, its rude to suggest that the people here who have so much breed knowledge, haven't been constructive, simply because they haven't said what you wanted to hear.

And finally, crappy breeders will ONLY breed whilst people buy them. It's supply and demand - a very basic fact. They wont breed litter after litter if no-one buys them, they are in it for money and if no-one lines their pockets they'll very soon stop doing it.
 
Well if you can tell if a puppy has hip dysplasia or even an adult then I think you should contact the BVA (British Vetinary council) a.s.a.p you will make a fortune!

There is a dog currently been shown that has a score in the 90's I think, it moves like a dream and will never be bred from ... You cannot (reliably) tell the state of a dogs hips or elbows by watching it, you need to xray ... even the speciaist vet th\at does my dogs (he used to sit on the bva panel) says that he cannot get an idea of hips without xrays.
 
The only people who get £700 for a pup are bona fide, class dog breeders. Backyard crappy breeders could never ask that price as their dogs would have no decent pedigree, no good hip/elbow scores, no good aftercare system, no good show results etc. Ergo, no, good breeders, getting top money for top bred pups does not encourage the breeding of **** dogs.
 
But that's surely just encouraging more and more dogs to be bred if people are prepared to pay such alot of money for a pup ?
 
Whoah, you did ask for help and advice. As you can see people who spend a lot of time and money producing sound, well bred puppies can sometimes get a bit uptight when they hear of unregistered, possibly untested dogs being bred from. As has rightly been pointed out, I am not sure if you can have a dog hip scored if its not KC reg, though am prepared to be corrected.
Minmax, sadly I think its unlikely you could tell if a dog had bad hips just from looking at it. I have been involved with the breed for 50 + years, the best moving bitch I have ever owned (not just my opinion she was very successful in the ring) had the worst hips I have ever seen, score in the 90s. Equally I have seen very unsound dogs with good hip scores.
 
bonny said:
ridebumble - what about the ethics of paying £700 for a pup ? Is that what is encouraging people to keep breeding them ?
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Well people are only gong to spend £700 on a pup if they know it is coming from a good breeder. If a breeder shows then you are looking at £1000's for showing costs, if they feed a premium diet like I do then the food bill for an average show kennel ..say 8 dogs with treats / bones etc can be over £5000 per year, the most recent stud I used was 302 miles away .. my car does £16 per 100 miles ... so 604 round trip twice = £193 petrol ... £400 stud fee so so far a mating has cost £593 .... then you have feeding a girl for a year, puppy food, puppy milk, my huge puppy pen for when they are 4 weeks and go out of my living room into another part of the house cost £1900, socialisation trips to town, £50 vet checks, £270 getting the bitch hip and elbow scored ...... what about vet bills ? Mum has a c section in the night .. thats £500 - £700 ... Then mum has 2 pups .. £1400 and you keep one ... thats £700 for all those costs

Believe me there is no profit in rainsing pups properly and showing dogs
 
I agree if you do things properly then's it's not cheap but surely alot of breeders cut more corners than you obviously do. All you need is a kc bitch with the right papers and a decent hip score and most will have alot more than 2 puppies. That's alot of money to make which is why I was asking if it's ethical to be paying that much for any pup as it's surely encouraging breeders to have more and more of them. What do I know though ! I have collies and none of them cost me anything !
 
Kitsune said:
I am definitely not the right person to pontificate on getting a puppy, however one thing I absolutely consoled myself to, is if you are buying a pedigree dog, to enjoy 10+ years with, don't scrimp on money anywhere. Go for the best dog, with the best breeding you can find for the purpose you want, be prepared to spend a lot of money to ensure your friend is healthy, happy and from a responsible breeder.
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I don't see why not scrimping on money makes a difference as my grandparents went miles out of their way to a responsible breeder and paid an extortionate amount of money for a KC reg. Rotti pup all health checks done (to the point of asking breeders whether any of their dogs had had cancer- non had) pup died at 3 yrs from bone cancer previous Rotti cost a fraction of the price no KC papers (both parents were reg. though) and lived till she was 7 (also had cancer). The best dog with the best breeding still may not reach 10+ :(
 
In my eyes it lessens the risks. If you looked at stats of ill dogs compared to well dogs, comparing well bred animals to badly bred animals (therefore expensive V cheap) you would find more illness in the puppy farmed cheap dogs. Of course we are talking about pedigree dogs here however.
 
bonny said:
I agree if you do things properly then's it's not cheap but surely alot of breeders cut more corners than you obviously do. All you need is a kc bitch with the right papers and a decent hip score and most will have alot more than 2 puppies. That's alot of money to make which is why I was asking if it's ethical to be paying that much for any pup as it's surely encouraging breeders to have more and more of them. What do I know though ! I have collies and none of them cost me anything !
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Thats a fair question, but then I see loadfs of pups for sale at £500 - £600 who still aren't sold at 9 weeks + yet mine are generally booked up by birth (not always of course). When people visit us they stay for hours .. literally .. and a 1 hour + telephone conversation before I even consider them as a home is normal .... Whatever the price of pups there will always be bad breeders .. the public need educating as much as bad breeders being put out of business. And the responce by the O.P is typical of what happens when you try and reason with someone for not buying that cheap dog from a dodgy breeder .. they only want to spend x ... its local... and I'll buy whatever you say. I have people travelling to me from Cornwall to Aberdeen to us .. and thats the type of home I want ... someone who really does care where their pup comes from .
 
For what it's worth I don't think the choice is between a dodgy breeder who will sell you a lovely pet, or a responsible dealer who will sell you an over-bred show dog.

We bought from a well established breeder who bred primarily for temperament as a family pet. The parents were both KC registered, all tests were available for us to see, the breeder asked a lot of question about our home and wanted to meet us and our other dogs before letting us anywhere near the puppies and we got the friendliest most well adjusted GSD you could ever imagine!

Just as an aside, I prefer to get my puppies at 7 weeks because the 6-12 week socialisation period is so crucial.
 
Well said RB. For a long time I was in the bizarre situation that I sold very few pups locally, they were instead at the furthest points of the country. I think that was possibly because I, and my mother, were very involved in showing so people were contacting us via word of mouth. It is very weird to get a recommendation from a vet hundreds of miles away.
I am not sure what the rate for a well bred puppy is now locally, will probably have to do some research if I decide to have a litter. I was given Evie but think her litter mates sold for around £700, but that is in the Manchester area, rural Shropshire may be different.
 
These pups are not local, nor are they cheap. I have been told by someone who is up on GSD breeding that there are kennels out there that are all KC, breeding rubbish, I believe they are only interested in the 'colour'!
If I wanted a KC reg I would have already got one as I have been looking for a while. There are enough about asking rather a lot of money.
If you are breeding to order, well done.
A lot of these breeders seem to have to advertise their puppies at a lower price as 'more litters coming' That to me sounds more like farming?
These people have one bitch, who has had one previous litter, she is 4.
 
I show ... I breed for :

Equal 1.: Temperment and health ... You can't show or live with a dog thats trying to pop at other dogs or people, nor can you show or want to live with an ill dog. I also want sopme drives inh a dog so it likes to play and enjoys training.

2nd Conformation : I want a dog that can run,jump, work and be happy

3rd Colour ... I have some beautiful colours but without the above its no good on its own.

There will always be bad breeders ... as I said its up to the public to make sure they know what they are looking for and pick responcible breeders !
 
I agree, there's a wealth of knowledge and advice available. In this generation, ignorance is not an excuse. Unfotunately people aren't just ignorant, they are lazy too.
 
Kitsune said:
From what I know, just being KC registered, isn't enough.
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Exactly, so how do you know who to trust?
Believe me, I have been looking into this since I lost Max last year, when I started looking for puppies then. I see the same breeders churning out pups, some i'm sure are fabulous but who knows?
 
Easy. Research. You talk to people, you take the rough with the smooth. You dust yourself off and pick another breeder. Research, ask questions. You visit shows, you read up, you buy every magazine you can get your hands on.

I started off with a few ideas, posted here, got told, "no don't go for them - they are junk" I moved on, I spent time just talking to people. I went on every breed website I could find, I read the KC standard, I watched videos on youtube...

Its so easy to get it wrong, I got it wrong and I bought a fantastic dog from a great breeder - and that was with the leg work I put in. Imagine how much worse it would have been had I bought a dodgy dog from a dodgy person. For me, the background work wasn't for nothing though, because when I'm ready I'll hopefully have a wealth of knowledge to rely on.

Sorry to go on, but I'm just not impressed by the old ignorance card.
 
If I wanted to breed or show I would go to shows, if I wanted to pay top whack for KC I would phone the Kennel Club. I just want a pet, I don't want it for any other reason than to keep my other company. I have been involved in breeding horses for 20 yrs, I do know how to research for bloodlines etc.
To call someone ignorant is rude. Thanks!
 
So much of it comes down to doing research. If you ask enough questions you should get a good idea of which of the lines are good and which to avoid. There are some of us on here who could tell you if there are any dogs you should be avoiding in the pedigree, or put the names into www.pedigreedatabase.com, under german shepherd pedigree search and you may be able to see pictures of ancestors. If the mother of the pups you are looking at has had a previous litter that can be helpful. Ask if they have photos of previous pups in their new homes , most breeders delight in receiving these, and keep them and letters from satisfied customers. It is a really good form of feedback, will also give you a good idea of how the pups are going to mature.
 
Agree with RB wholeheartedly, we have only had one litter (this current one) and although the pups are not cheap overall we will be breaking even or possibly even making a loss, trust me, if you do this properly it's impossible to earn money out of it! Well unless she had had 10 pups which is a bit unlikely :D
And we don't show so we don't have that expense, a friend of a friend is a top basset hound breeder and she is so often abroad (all over Europe) and the money she has to invest showing is just beyond belief. And apart from the financial aspect, it's the fact that you put your life on hold for three months. Alarm bells should ring very loudly when somebody says that all pups must go at 7 weeks because she has to go back to work and is not sure husband can cope! They should have thought about that a bit earlier.
And also agree with the distance, the homes we have found for the pups are all a long way away, the male will go to Venice (6 hours away by car!! 12 hour round trip) as this person was really looking for Florimell's sought-after bloodlines.
 
No no. I didn't call you ignorant, I said "ignorance" Dictionary (and wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance) says Ignorance is the state of being uninformed. If you don't know how to pick a good breeder, you are uninformed - therefore not rude, factual. I'm sorry you took it that way.

For me, even if you get a pet dog, its good form to study the dogs anyway, but hey ho - that's just me. You can of course disregard every bit of advice you have been given here as that's your perogative. Best of luck with your dog.
 
Jake10 said:
minmax - is this this sort you want (family pet) breeders seem responsible etc

http://www.pets4homes.co.uk/pets4homes/home.nsf/LookupUNID/30B9F365058CB818802577340030D45D
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Ermm hate to say it but actually don't agree the breeders are responsible. Purely cos blue is a non-standard colour which responsible breeders used to give away with their papers endorsed "not for breeding". I had 2 blues in a litter once, and this is what I did, to sell them for £650 is wrong imho.
 
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