Going to try wedges on hinds of flat footed, long-toed TB

[NikKnock]

I'm hopeful this will help with his intermittent toe clip in trot and underlying sacral joint pain. Does anyone have wedges in their horses shoes and are they a permanent fixture? My farrier says it's not something that should be used permanently, but I look online and see farriers that swear by the positive action wedges have on aligning the pedal-bone and they do not mention wedges as a short-term solution only. It seems that some recommend their permanent use. Any opinions/experience out there please?

 

[AmyMay]

What does your vet think? Have the feet been xrayed?

 

[paddy555]

I'm hopeful this will help with his intermittent toe clip in trot and underlying sacral joint pain. Does anyone have wedges in their horses shoes and are they a permanent fixture? My farrier says it's not something that should be used permanently, but I look online and see farriers that swear by the positive action wedges have on aligning the pedal-bone and they do not mention wedges as a short-term solution only. It seems that some recommend their permanent use. Any opinions/experience out there please?

from your comments you seem to be basing your options on what farriers say online.
The article below may give a more detailed evaluation upon which to make a decision.

as Amymay asks do you have X rays?

Wedges - A Necessary Evil?

Wedges are widely debated in the farriery world, do they help to create better geometric hoof proportions in a broken back hoof pastern axis’, de-loading affected structures? Or do they simply put a plaster on a symptom, perpetuating the adverse biomechanical forces that created the morphology...

www.theequinedocumentalist.com

 

[ycbm]

I'm assuming this is hind feet, with your reference to sacral problems.

I would want to try to understand why the hind hooves have created a negative angle. The negative angle are a symptom of something else. I've seen the use of wedges enable the horse to move more freely in order to recover from whatever the problem was which caused the negative angle.

I'm not a fan of shoes and very much not a fan of wedges on the front, but the back is different. I would be guided by your farrier, who seems to have their head screwed on.

I don't understand why you are trying to second guess your farrier about how long they should stay on for before they've even been put on.

Does your bodyworker or vet have any idea what caused the hoof angle issue?
.

 

[sbloom]

I think the new protocols, with frog support, composite shoes etc, offer some really interesting options. I was until recently almost 100% pro barefoot but sorting out NPA behind with this approach to wedging (not open heel shoes) does look to be a gamechanger for the whole body, allowing the horse to move without compensation immediately. I am still cautious, but The Equine Documentalist and Progressive Equine Services (Oz) do seem to be successful with this approach, from what we can see,

 

[HelenBack]

I've used them and found they can be helpful but I would say the trim is equally, if not more, important and also you need the farrier to fit them correctly. I had a farrier fit them too small and have seen this in photos on line too and that's not helpful. And the long toes will need to be equally addressed by the trim as the shoes won't solve that on their own.

Also agree with sbloom about it being the wedges with pads rather than the open heel wedges that you need to use as these stimulate the digital cushion and sole.

Other things to watch out for is that they can come off more easily than traditional shoes, although again your farrier might have some suggestions to reduce this risk, and the pads can crush the frogs a little bit. Hoof hygiene as this time of year can be an issue too and the Australian guy tends to take the shoes off in winter if he can I think.

So overall yes, but with some cautions attached!

 

[Highmileagecob]

Bear in mind that you would be tipping weight onto the toe. Really, really scrutinise the hooves and check that the long toe isn't the cause of the horse tipping back on his heels and creating the flat foot. A slow trimming process over six to twelve months may be all that is needed to grow a new hoof into correct weight bearing shape. Without x-rays to check what the pedal bone is doing, it's a bit hit and miss. Good luck, hope you get it sorted out.

 

[sbloom]

Bear in mind that you would be tipping weight onto the toe. Really, really scrutinise the hooves and check that the long toe isn't the cause of the horse tipping back on his heels and creating the flat foot. A slow trimming process over six to twelve months may be all that is needed to grow a new hoof into correct weight bearing shape. Without x-rays to check what the pedal bone is doing, it's a bit hit and miss. Good luck, hope you get it sorted out.

It's really interesting, the experts we're quoting are saying that too often we think it's a long toe and address it that way, too slowly, allowing compensations in the body to persist, and that if we corrected the NPA straight away (though of course agree that it really should be done to xrays) the horse is a lot better off. I know there are some cases that don't come right with that long term trimming approach so this "caudal failure" approach does give an alternative and, so far, bodyworkers etc seem to be happy that it doesn't cause issues to correct the angles in one go.

https://www.facebook.com/profile/100057348554828/search/?q=long%20toe

 

[NikKnock]

I think the new protocols, with frog support, composite shoes etc, offer some really interesting options. I was until recently almost 100% pro barefoot but sorting out NPA behind with this approach to wedging (not open heel shoes) does look to be a gamechanger for the whole body, allowing the horse to move without compensation immediately. I am still cautious, but The Equine Documentalist and Progressive Equine Services (Oz) do seem to be successful with this approach, from what we can see,

Yes, I'm following Progressive Equine Oz and this is what has sparked my interest. I have had x rays done about 5 months ago and we found that my horse has particularly long toes and pedal bone was flat almost tilting backwards (hocks x rayed too, all fine). Further trimming has helped him and lots of physio and I spend time doing groundwork and massage but still the sacral discomfort is there if not as bad. The reason the toes are long and flat is I'm pretty sure just because he's predisposed, being a tb, also a tad bum high and straightish hocks.

 

[doodle]

Going to add to this as my horse has just broken a pedal bone on the back. The back wing of the bone fractured. This was found 3 months ago and vet noted a slightly negative angle of pedal bone. He went in to the wedges and pads (3d pads I think they are called) then. We have just had repeat x-rays and it is full boney healed (vet was expecting fibrous union and for it to still be apparent) . The angle is still slightly negative (the bone is flat rather than dipped). He also xrayed the good foot and the angle there is correct.

The question is was the fracture caused by this negative angle or did it fracture anyway due to a direct trauma) We will never know. Anyway he now has the same wedge and pads on both back feet. Reason being that while on box rest the difference between feet wouldn't matter but now we are starting rehab it will make a difference.

It is interesting that it is only 1 foot. Farrier has said it sometimes happens like that. I must say I am concerned about wedges long term but vet is saying 6 - 9 months to coincide with a new foot growing. He has thib soles so there is limited amount there for drastic trimming. Farrier agrees and isn't worried about long term use.

Vet is happy that we don't need more x-rays for the fracture but I may get them in 6 months to see the angle.

 

[NikKnock]

It's really interesting, the experts we're quoting are saying that too often we think it's a long toe and address it that way, too slowly, allowing compensations in the body to persist, and that if we corrected the NPA straight away (though of course agree that it really should be done to xrays) the horse is a lot better off. I know there are some cases that don't come right with that long term trimming approach so this "caudal failure" approach does give an alternative and, so far, bodyworkers etc seem to be happy that it doesn't cause issues to correct the angles in one go.

https://www.facebook.com/profile/100057348554828/search/?q=long%20toe

Thank you. Mine and my farriers instinct is to address the NPA with wedges. The vet and physio were in on the shorter trims and it's been 5 months of the new trim and although he's better than he was, I believe he can be helped more. Pretty sure he's guarding his back. My only concern going forward even if it helps is the controversy over whether wedges on hinds can remain a permanent fixture. Progressive services and equine centre who I follow on FB seem to suggest this isn't a problem, whereas my farrier is looking at the wedges as a short term thing only. That's why I wondered if anybody out there have their horses in wedges on hinds permanently.

 

[NikKnock]

Bear in mind that you would be tipping weight onto the toe. Really, really scrutinise the hooves and check that the long toe isn't the cause of the horse tipping back on his heels and creating the flat foot. A slow trimming process over six to twelve months may be all that is needed to grow a new hoof into correct weight bearing shape. Without x-rays to check what the pedal bone is doing, it's a bit hit and miss. Good luck, hope you get it sorted out.

Thank you do much.

 

[NikKnock]

Thank you do much.

Thank you SO much that should say!

 

[sbloom]

The reason the toes are long and flat is I'm pretty sure just because he's predisposed, being a tb, also a tad bum high and straightish hocks.

I would say the straight hocks are at least in part coming from the feet but ultimately that poor movement leads to bad feet and bad feet lead to poor movement, you're doing exactly the right thing by tackling it from all angles. I think also there is groundwork and groundwork, I see so much that simply strengthens the dysfunction, often simply doing the right things too early, and missing out the fundamentals. Just adding as a general point, food for thought. One thing I've realised the importance of recently, on best current understanding, is the role of the psoas in controlling the pelvis, and the role of the pelvis and the hind leg in braking, actually stopping the horse falling forwards. It's a useful way to look at biomechanics imo (though no doubt I'll be shot down for saying that ).

I don't think I've seen PES use or recommend them for long term use, that the aim is to correct the angles and then the growth so that they do come off for at least much of the year. I may just have missed those discussions though!

 

[NikKnock]

Going to add to this as my horse has just broken a pedal bone on the back. The back wing of the bone fractured. This was found 3 months ago and vet noted a slightly negative angle of pedal bone. He went in to the wedges and pads (3d pads I think they are called) then. We have just had repeat x-rays and it is full boney healed (vet was expecting fibrous union and for it to still be apparent) . The angle is still slightly negative (the bone is flat rather than dipped). He also xrayed the good foot and the angle there is correct.

The question is was the fracture caused by this negative angle or did it fracture anyway due to a direct trauma) We will never know. Anyway he now has the same wedge and pads on both back feet. Reason being that while on box rest the difference between feet wouldn't matter but now we are starting rehab it will make a difference.

It is interesting that it is only 1 foot. Farrier has said it sometimes happens like that. I must say I am concerned about wedges long term but vet is saying 6 - 9 months to coincide with a new foot growing. He has thib soles so there is limited amount there for drastic trimming. Farrier agrees and isn't worried about long term use.

Vet is happy that we don't need more x-rays for the fracture but I may get them in 6 months to see the angle.

That's really helpful thank you. Also, so pleased you've had a positive outcome.

 

[NikKnock]

I would say the straight hocks are at least in part coming from the feet but ultimately that poor movement leads to bad feet and bad feet lead to poor movement, you're doing exactly the right thing by tackling it from all angles. I think also there is groundwork and groundwork, I see so much that simply strengthens the dysfunction, often simply doing the right things too early, and missing out the fundamentals. Just adding as a general point, food for thought. One thing I've realised the importance of recently, on best current understanding, is the role of the psoas in controlling the pelvis, and the role of the pelvis and the hind leg in braking, actually stopping the horse falling forwards. It's a useful way to look at biomechanics imo (though no doubt I'll be shot down for saying that ).

I don't think I've seen PES use or recommend them for long term use, that the aim is to correct the angles and then the growth so that they do come off for at least much of the year. I may just have missed those discussions though!

Thank you, really interesting. Psoas? I don't know what this is though

 

[NikKnock]

I've used them and found they can be helpful but I would say the trim is equally, if not more, important and also you need the farrier to fit them correctly. I had a farrier fit them too small and have seen this in photos on line too and that's not helpful. And the long toes will need to be equally addressed by the trim as the shoes won't solve that on their own.

Also agree with sbloom about it being the wedges with pads rather than the open heel wedges that you need to use as these stimulate the digital cushion and sole.

Other things to watch out for is that they can come off more easily than traditional shoes, although again your farrier might have some suggestions to reduce this risk, and the pads can crush the frogs a little bit. Hoof hygiene as this time of year can be an issue too and the Australian guy tends to take the shoes off in winter if he can I think.

So overall yes, but with some cautions attached!

Great thanks. I'll check we're using pads too. Yes he was on pads all round without wedges about a year ago as his hooves and soles needed help over stony ground, really helped, but yeah the frog got squashed. There's always a downside!

 

[NikKnock]

I'm assuming this is hind feet, with your reference to sacral problems.

I would want to try to understand why the hind hooves have created a negative angle. The negative angle are a symptom of something else. I've seen the use of wedges enable the horse to move more freely in order to recover from whatever the problem was which caused the negative angle.

I'm not a fan of shoes and very much not a fan of wedges on the front, but the back is different. I would be guided by your farrier, who seems to have their head screwed on.

I don't understand why you are trying to second guess your farrier about how long they should stay on for before they've even been put on.

Does your bodyworker or vet have any idea what caused the hoof angle issue?
.

No, I don't know why I'm second guessing, I suppose I'm slightly clutching at straws as we've been trimming shorter all round for 5 months on a monthly shoeing cycle and although a lot better the toe clip on hind in trot and sacral discomfort is still there. Probably his conformation doesn't help him, he has a pronounced bum and although the top line is coming up he had been ridden hollow since a youngster. He's 10 now and I'm doing all i can to strengthen that topline. He is a tb, the physio, vet and farrier are of the view he's just got unlucky tb feet as in they grow long with no height particularly and probably allowed to remain too long for too many years. My farrier since x rays was able to ascertain that he had much more sole than he realised he could trim off particularly at the back so we've helped the horse a lot.

 

[sbloom]

Thank you, really interesting. Psoas? I don't know what this is though

This may help

https://www.facebook.com/maria.hallring/posts/pfbid02AesA3bUjGUzpm2grt9whmWbYTaqfFmdnyCHyG6RvsAiogeRC6mX1YAdebXugkDRyl

Plus a very good physio but a bit dry! https://vetphysiophyle.co.uk/2018/1...DbZosCRkRsqg1Okl_g1g9fSFwldLQsTpX7yUG62ano3RE

but yeah the frog got squashed.

I'm pretty sure the DIM (dental impression material) stops this, and I do think they nearly always use composite shoes, with a closed heel and frog support (you may well be on the case on this of course!).

 

[NikKnock]

This may help

https://www.facebook.com/maria.hallring/posts/pfbid02AesA3bUjGUzpm2grt9whmWbYTaqfFmdnyCHyG6RvsAiogeRC6mX1YAdebXugkDRyl

Plus a very good physio but a bit dry! https://vetphysiophyle.co.uk/2018/1...DbZosCRkRsqg1Okl_g1g9fSFwldLQsTpX7yUG62ano3RE



I'm pretty sure the DIM (dental impression material) stops this, and I do think they nearly always use composite shoes, with a closed heel and frog support (you may well be on the case on this of course!).

Thanks, I had a listen. He maybe fulfills only two of the criteria of a horse with iliopsias injury, but definitely worth bearing in mind.

 

[AandK]

My late gelding had NPA/reverse rotated pedal bones back when he was about 6/7yrs old. Found when investigating lameness behind. He was shod with wedges for about 3yrs (first pads were quite thick so easy to lose, if he lost one he would go sore lumbar/sacral region, and a bit pottery in front). He then had a chronic suspensory branch injury behind age 11, possible cause too much work on a surface and the wedges. Long story short, he had his hind shoes off for about 5 months, due to long term box rest and controlled exercise. He didn't need the wedges again.
This was a long time ago (I lost him age 26 in August) and things have moved on a lot since. I think the shoeing packages of the likes of PES on FB do help, but I'm sure they also time this with breaks without shoes when it is wet/winter time. My opinion is careful shoeing packages should help, but I would caution against long term use due to my own experience.

 

[NikKnock]

My late gelding had NPA/reverse rotated pedal bones back when he was about 6/7yrs old. Found when investigating lameness behind. He was shod with wedges for about 3yrs (first pads were quite thick so easy to lose, if he lost one he would go sore lumbar/sacral region, and a bit pottery in front). He then had a chronic suspensory branch injury behind age 11, possible cause too much work on a surface and the wedges. Long story short, he had his hind shoes off for about 5 months, due to long term box rest and controlled exercise. He didn't need the wedges again.
This was a long time ago (I lost him age 26 in August) and things have moved on a lot since. I think the shoeing packages of the likes of PES on FB do help, but I'm sure they also time this with breaks without shoes when it is wet/winter time. My opinion is careful shoeing packages should help, but I would caution against long term use due to my own experience.

Really useful thank you for answering.

 

[sbloom]

Thanks, I had a listen. He maybe fulfills only two of the criteria of a horse with iliopsias injury, but definitely worth bearing in mind.

It's more about its involvement in posture and control of movement, so often it's not functioning correctly, as part of overall problems, and you end up with straightened hind legs and NPA feet. Sorry, it's a while since I listened to that podcast! There is a ton of good stuff on equitopiacenter.com if I haven't mentioned it on this thread (I recommend it a lot!).

 

[lynz88]

I think if done correctly, can be a good thing and has their place but I would be super picky as to who is shoeing (I would be picky regardless tbh). They were not so great for mine - he was incredibily unhappy so have gone barefoot and has been much happier since (though still struggle from time to time with low heels though his toe has significantly shortened). That said he is also arthritic so suspect shoes don't help him much in general.