Good work from RSPCA and WHW..

Have red this long saga with growing disbelief. You all seem to have missed the point - the sad point - that for whatever reason the charities involved were unable to prevent, over at least 18 months and possibly two years, an elderly horse being starved to death in front of their eyes. And we're talking professionals here, not just concerned passers-by.
 
Rose Folly said:
Have red this long saga with growing disbelief. You all seem to have missed the point - the sad point - that for whatever reason the charities involved were unable to prevent, over at least 18 months and possibly two years, an elderly horse being starved to death in front of their eyes. And we're talking professionals here, not just concerned passers-by.
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In front of their eyes?!! Explain?
 
Moomin1 said:
With regards pts - do you not think that statistics will be higher than other charities due to the sheer size of the RSPCA and the amount of work that comes in for them?!! I'm no good at maths but I'm afraid that one's obvious Shils! ;)
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I agree: you are no good at maths. I said that 'more than half' of the animals were put to sleep, not an absolute number.
So the 'sheer size of the RSPCA' does not alter the proportion PTS.
A shockingly high proportion, if you ask me. :(
S :D
 
Moomin1 said:
In front of their eyes?!! Explain?
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They were sent video footage over a year ago taken by workmen of this horse thin and struggling to get on its feet. The clue is also in the name - Royal Society for the prevention of cruelty to animals. Not much preventing goes on in my area I'm afraid.

I also know a ministry vet, who while he respects the work that the field officers do, he has very little regard for the management of the rspca and sees them as a political rather than animal welfare organisation.
 
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The RSPCA are primarily a fund raising body, with the welfare of animals as a far-in-the-distance and secondary interest.

The RSPCA are not fit for purpose, in my view. Assuming that at some stage they must have had a sense of direction, it has now been abandoned, and wilfully so. The whole concern is a joke.

Alec.
 
Just to clarify matters.........

"The RSPCA has no special powers to prosecute. In actual fact anybody (as as individual or part of an organisation) can bring a prosecution under the Animal Welfare Act
(2006). However it is generally accepted that the RSPCA leads on prosecutions for the charity sector for two reasons:
The first is that prosecutions are exceedingy expensive and most other organisation simply do not have the resources.
The second is that the RSPCA has a great deal of expertise and experience in the technicalities of evidence gathering and putting a case together. Other organisations generally lack this and thus it is sensible to defer to the RSPCA rather than risk a case falling apart if it is improperly put together".

I am quoting from a letter to me dated 24 January 2011 from Lee Hackett - Senior Executive Welfare British Horse Society (BHS)
 
This to me is just another case of why it shouldnt be as easy to buy a horse as it is a pint of bread! I know that noone has the resources to police animal owners but if you drive a car, you have to pass a test!
 
PeterNatt said:
Just to clarify matters.........

"The RSPCA has no special powers to prosecute. In actual fact anybody (as as individual or part of an organisation) can bring a prosecution under the Animal Welfare Act
(2006). However it is generally accepted that the RSPCA leads on prosecutions for the charity sector for two reasons:
The first is that prosecutions are exceedingy expensive and most other organisation simply do not have the resources.
The second is that the RSPCA has a great deal of expertise and experience in the technicalities of evidence gathering and putting a case together. Other organisations generally lack this and thus it is sensible to defer to the RSPCA rather than risk a case falling apart if it is improperly put together".

I am quoting from a letter to me dated 24 January 2011 from Lee Hackett - Senior Executive Welfare British Horse Society (BHS)
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Thankyou for clearing that one up. I wasn't aware of that.

Personally I'd like to see more emphasis on prevention of cruelty, rather than prosecution.

It begs the question that if there is a case of neglect, and this can be verified by a vet, why the police / cps don't take more action? Seeing as they have more available funds? Answer: because they themselves refer to the RSPCA (because they don't have the experience of what is and what isn't neglect or cruelty) who in turn don't bother because the police haven't got the right evidence :rolleyes: . Why do the police not work more closely with animal welfare?

An owner being advised and assisted for two years before an animal is siezed is one thing. An animal being neglected in front of their very eyes and nothing being done until it is too late is quite another.
 
Two thoughts.

1. Remind of a 'successful' case where the RSPCA haven't had to have their hand held by another charity?

2. How can we get WHW able to prosecute? Would be fab to remove the need for the shambles that is the RSPCA altogether.
 
Really, the RSPCA has let both the horse and the owner down here.
The horse has suffered dreadfully, the elderly owner has been prosecuted.
If you consider that the owner had the horse since it was a yearling, and was providing hay and water (that the horse couldn't eat due to dental problems) then a better solution all round would have been for the RSPCA (or other charities) to pay for a vet and dentist, and support both the horse and the owner in their respective twilight years.
Badly done.
S :(
 
Shilasdair said:
Really, the RSPCA has let both the horse and the owner down here.
The horse has suffered dreadfully, the elderly owner has been prosecuted.
If you consider that the owner had the horse since it was a yearling, and was providing hay and water (that the horse couldn't eat due to dental problems) then a better solution all round would have been for the RSPCA (or other charities) to pay for a vet and dentist, and support both the horse and the owner in their respective twilight years.
Badly done.
S :(
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I'll get shot down for this by the RSPCA animal action club members, but it strikes me time and again that it's far better to leave something to the point of unmistakeable suffering and get a prosecution (media attention = £££'s in donations towards hilton hotels) than it is to PREVENT suffering and educate.

Horseworld recently applied for and recieved a national lottery grant to teach horse care to traveller children. To EDUCATE and prevent cruelty.

Aside from taking on the big prosecutions and doing their tv shows I have never heard of the RSPCA doing anything like this. God knows, they have the finances to.
 
Cedars said:
Two thoughts.

1. Remind of a 'successful' case where the RSPCA haven't had to have their hand held by another charity? [/qupte]

In the last 12 months two cases I have been involved in have resulted in conviction with only the RSPCA involved. Including the other vets in my practice we have had 8 in the last year, one of which also involved WHW, and we are a relatively small practice. All of these were successful in terms of both prosecution, and in terms of impact on animal welfare. Not every case makes it into the papers.

2. How can we get WHW able to prosecute? Would be fab to remove the need for the shambles that is the RSPCA altogether.
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As PeterNatt said above, WHW have all the same ability to prosecute now. They don't have the money, expertise or inclination.
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Shilasdair said:
Really, the RSPCA has let both the horse and the owner down here.
The horse has suffered dreadfully, the elderly owner has been prosecuted.
If you consider that the owner had the horse since it was a yearling, and was providing hay and water (that the horse couldn't eat due to dental problems) then a better solution all round would have been for the RSPCA (or other charities) to pay for a vet and dentist, and support both the horse and the owner in their respective twilight years.
Badly done.
S :(
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Shils, the RSPCA were aware of this horse's conditions, so as you say, to imprison an elderly man, and to presumably encourage the Court to issue a meaningless life time ban to a man of advanced years, was in itself a case of neglect. Neglect to carry out their duties, yet again.

Alec.
 
It took half a dozen HHO members, a visit to Burley where they informed the rep at the BHS stand to FINALLY get Spud and Carrot removed from thier awful situation.
RSPCA said "ponies are old and therefore expected to be thin"
THIN? They were ruddy well emaciated!
As I said before EPIC fail!
 
Moomin1 said:
Yeah you are right the RSPCA do issue warning notices as you mention. These are not statutory notices however. As you say - if the other charities wished to issue these they could do just the same, but they don't. I don't know why - haven't looked into it.
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So a private citizen is permitted to issue a similarly official-looking notice? What about seizure (after due process)?
 
Shilasdair said:
Really, the RSPCA has let both the horse and the owner down here.
The horse has suffered dreadfully, the elderly owner has been prosecuted.
If you consider that the owner had the horse since it was a yearling, and was providing hay and water (that the horse couldn't eat due to dental problems) then a better solution all round would have been for the RSPCA (or other charities) to pay for a vet and dentist, and support both the horse and the owner in their respective twilight years.
Badly done.
S :(
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This is how I feel about the situation, the RSPCA has done nothing to PREVENT cruelty by being proactive and helping avoid further suffering.

It seems to me that they consider success is in gaining a prosecution, not in preventing the suffering from happening in the first place or helping before it was too late.

I know their hands may be tied and it is difficult to remove a horse, although it could be signed over, to send in a vet to treat would be more cost effective, kinder to both horse and owner and acting more in the way that should be expected of a charity that is for the prevention of cruelty to animals, not just waiting until they may get a prosecution
 
Moomin1 said:
Do you actually think that EVERY animal which gets reported to the RSPCA is in a bad state or being neglected?! I would say that a high percentage of the complaints they investigate there is actually very little or nothing wrong.

Does it not occur to you that LOTS of elderly horses get reported daily for looking poor?! Does not mean that the RSPCA will go in and remove every one of them for being old and poor. This horse may well have just been in that category at that stage in time. Things may well have then got a whole lot worse and circumstances may well have changed.

And do you also think that if that horse was ANYWHERE near that state 18ths ago it would have lived this long?! It's organs would have failed months ago - especially being the age it is!

Also, please remember that the comment you read is from ONE person only. How do you know that person is credible?! He may well think a ribby horse is in fact emaciated. Just because it ended up the way it did does not mean he was necessarily right in thinking it was neglected two years ago. It may well have just been an old looking, dipped backed horse which was a bit ribby.
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Whilst I agree with you in principal moomin, the fact remains that the RSPCA were 'keeping an eye' on this horse during the last 18mths, the same way they were 'keeping an eye' on Jamie Grey. this poor animal should NEVER have been allowed to get into the state it did get into, it was WHW who went in and finally put the horse out of his misery.
 
Shilasdair said:
Moomin1 - I am starting to suspect you are paid for viral marketing on the RSPCA's behalf.
The truth is (as many of us who have worked in the equine industry for years know) that they do duck all to help animal welfare, and everything to gain donations and political leverage.
As an organisation, I wouldn't donate to them when there are so many genuine horse charities out there - like WHW and the BHS.
The RSPCA should be ashamed of their behaviour - every penny donated seems to go towards luxury and influence for the organisation, whilst they kill more than half the animals they 'rescue'.
S :mad:
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Completely and utterly agree with this.
 
Shilasdair said:
Really, the RSPCA has let both the horse and the owner down here.
The horse has suffered dreadfully, the elderly owner has been prosecuted.
If you consider that the owner had the horse since it was a yearling, and was providing hay and water (that the horse couldn't eat due to dental problems) then a better solution all round would have been for the RSPCA (or other charities) to pay for a vet and dentist, and support both the horse and the owner in their respective twilight years.
Badly done.
S :(
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Absolutely (God I am agreeing with you again!).

This was not a case of deliberate cruelty imho, both the horse and the owner were elderly and frail. It is a very sad scenario but surely Shils is right, the owner should perhaps have been supported rather than prosecuted. The fact that he looked after this horse well for most of his life (or he (the horse) would not have reached the grand age he did) surely shows that the owner was not a deliberately neglectful person? I find the whole thing very very sad for both the horse and the owner tbh.
 
joeanne said:
It took half a dozen HHO members, a visit to Burley where they informed the rep at the BHS stand to FINALLY get Spud and Carrot removed from thier awful situation.
RSPCA said "ponies are old and therefore expected to be thin"
THIN? They were ruddy well emaciated!
As I said before EPIC fail!
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carrot and spud were who I first thought of on reading post #4 from moomin

'I can guarantee that the RSPCA or WHW would NEVER leave a horse in that condition - and if an officer did they would be sacked before they could mumble the word sorry.'

We have all seen that the above is not the case, and its worrying to think how much longer they would have been left there.

They were also not helped by the attending vet who said that they were old and so it was ok that they were so thin :mad:.
 
Shilasdair said:
Really, the RSPCA has let both the horse and the owner down here.
The horse has suffered dreadfully, the elderly owner has been prosecuted.
If you consider that the owner had the horse since it was a yearling, and was providing hay and water (that the horse couldn't eat due to dental problems) then a better solution all round would have been for the RSPCA (or other charities) to pay for a vet and dentist, and support both the horse and the owner in their respective twilight years.
Badly done.
S :(
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be positive said:
This is how I feel about the situation, the RSPCA has done nothing to PREVENT cruelty by being proactive and helping avoid further suffering.

It seems to me that they consider success is in gaining a prosecution, not in preventing the suffering from happening in the first place or helping before it was too late.

I know their hands may be tied and it is difficult to remove a horse, although it could be signed over, to send in a vet to treat would be more cost effective, kinder to both horse and owner and acting more in the way that should be expected of a charity that is for the prevention of cruelty to animals, not just waiting until they may get a prosecution
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yes and yes to these sentiments!!
the RSPCA are a 'for profit ' organisation:mad:
 
ester said:
carrot and spud were who I first thought of on reading post #4 from moomin

'I can guarantee that the RSPCA or WHW would NEVER leave a horse in that condition - and if an officer did they would be sacked before they could mumble the word sorry.'

We have all seen that the above is not the case, and its worrying to think how much longer they would have been left there.

They were also not helped by the attending vet who said that they were old and so it was ok that they were so thin :mad:.
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I'm sorry - I don't know anything about what happened with Carrot and Spud. Reading from what you have put here - the RSPCA attended, called a vet, and the vet wouldn't support a case because they said it was ok that they were in the condition they were. If that is the case and then I'm afraid the law does not allow the RSPCA to remove when a vet will not support. So in actual fact, it is the vet's doing.
 
Moomin1 said:
I'm sorry - I don't know anything about what happened with Carrot and Spud. Reading from what you have put here - the RSPCA attended, called a vet, and the vet wouldn't support a case because they said it was ok that they were in the condition they were. If that is the case and then I'm afraid the law does not allow the RSPCA to remove when a vet will not support. So in actual fact, it is the vet's doing.
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WHW and BHS removed the horses. RSPCA did sod all. Rspca could have had a different opinion and chose not to. Horses were removed within 24 hours of the BHS and WHW being notified.
 
Then perhaps they should have called an EQUINE vet as opposed to the small animal vet that likely attended.
NO equine vet would have said they looked like sacks of shi**e because of old age.......as Bransby proved in a very short space of time, they put on oodles of weight given a diet suited to their needs.
I no longer call the RSPCA with regards to horse welfare as inspectors seem to know diddly squat.
Same goes with dogs....i'll call the Dogs Trust
CPL for cats.
Saves an awful lot of hastle to bypass them.
 
AND...while i'm in a p*** poor mood i'll add this:
IF they had given this elderly gentleman HELP two years ago, say maybe get a dentist in to see to his horse, then the horse wouldn't have needed saving would it?
And the poor sod who was likely doing his best wouldn't have seen his horse fade before his eyes.
RSPCA....Royal Society for the PREVENTION of Cruelty to Animals did NOTHING to help PREVENT the suffering of this horse TWO years ago!!!
 
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