Goodbye to Hounds

palo1 said:
I do wonder how all forms of hound sports will be banned tbh: do you ban having multiple dogs with horses, specific breeds of dogs, a specific number of dogs? If landowners wish to host a party that includes multiple horses/people and multiple dogs of a certain kind, do we really want a government to legislate for that? I am NOT talking about illegal fox hunting but legal trail, drag and bloodhound hunting which I think would be extraordinarily difficult to 'ban' without having unwanted consequences that would probably be unworkable and unpalatable in a democracy. Pirate packs will continue and likely attract the worst kind of people: as hare coursing has done where it was once highly respectable and effectively self regulated (however people may feel about the welfare of the hare) I have never been into coursing or hare hunting but I am aware of the history and evolution of that.

Will farmers/landowners still be allowed to flush a fox with 2 dogs I wonder? How would a ban on that be enforced? My terrier and farm sheepdog hunted the trail of a fox in the gorse and heather a few weeks ago - no chance of the fox getting hurt but it meant he was wary for a few days. I had no intent on hunting and flushing a fox is currently legal (and I was not carrying a gun). How will the police feel about potential legislation to cover everything from that scenario to a full blown drag hunt on private land? Honestly, it is a nonsense to think it possible...
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Whatever they put in place will be as poorly drafted as the current legislation which the police have done very little to enforce.

But it is a quick win from a policy perspective when everything else is going **** up. It's not like the last budget was particularly well thought through either.
 
I’m in agreement with much of the above, I’ve lost interest in hunting since it all became too toxic on both sides and I can see how much of a pain it is for people when they are all over the roads and on people’s land without permission, and also most of the farmers I know moan about having to let them onto their land.
The entitlement and cruelty I can’t bear either.

However, I do have some sympathy with the hound breeders. The good, decent ones (must be some?!) who are very passionate about their dogs (yes, I know, ‘hounds’, but they are still dogs too aren’t they) as they will indeed die out if they are no longer needed. We all have a favourite horse or dog breed, imagine if people were saying, ‘just let them die out because they are no longer needed’.

My non horsey OH just said, ‘stop ripping animals apart, ditch the ridiculous outfits that make you all look like posh twxts who are above everyone else, stay off the roads and stick to places you are actually allowed and no-one would care.’

I know many of you will now have raised hackles because we love our trad hunting dress, but he has a point. If we want to have an escorted jolly round the countryside following hounds, this is probably what we need to do. And I’d probably join in again. Esp if there was no plaiting !!
 
palo1 said:
If landowners wish to host a party that includes multiple horses/people and multiple dogs of a certain kind, do we really want a government to legislate for that?
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Same way a fun ride is very clearly not hunting. You simply wouldn't be able to host a "party" with 5+ horses and a pack of hounds - for example. I'm not a legislator and won't pretend to be, but it seems pretty obvious to me the difference between a hunting party, and a non-hunting party.
 
paddy555 said:
if you cannot let them work as hounds what is the point of keeping them for exercise. The only reason I can see is to bide time until we have a GE.

If hunts/members are quite happy just to ride along with a pack of hounds why do they need to hunt fox now or why do they even need a trail. It would be no different from an endurance ride, pleasure ride, club ride but you get to take dogs along and have the hassle of controlling them.
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They could go out without hounds, there are landowners who allow bloodhounds already, there must be some willing. I still hunt occasionally, I love it, riding in a group is enjoyable and it makes me ride in a way I'm now too chicken to do alone now, you have to go along with everyone else and that's that. They could still do their fun rides and team chases and point to points and I'm sure there'd be a lot of support still.

About three years ago a local chap who's into reenactment organised a ride from Gloucester to Tewkesbury, it was great fun and very well supported. Then there was another a couple of years ago towards Malvern across the commons, not as long but still great fun. So I'd wager that hounds aren't entirely necessary.

I've said all along, since the original ban was proposed, that hunts are their own worst enemy and here we are.
 
ycbm said:
All the more reason why they will think that banning an activity widely seen in deprived urban areas as an upper class activity will win them votes?
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A valid point possibly, but they have already lost a lot of votes through the taxation changes, pensioner heating allowance etc. A lot of labour voters thought they would be better off under Labour but they very much are not and there is a lot more pain on its way. Your average person in a tower block will be more concerned about having money for the gas meter than worrying about someone on a horse in the countryside. Huge rises in Ctax will be seen in 6 weeks, even bigger hikes in water rates, 6% rise in utility bills, lower emission vehicles to be taxed from April 1st and god only knows what the March budget is going to produce, the only certainty is the tax payer will be funding the surprises.

Sadly the hunts have not helped themselves at all and there is no doubt they will all eventually cease for a variety of reasons, finance, open country, encroaching conurbation, internal politics etc. Many hunts have amalgamated over the past 20 plus years as their individual country gets ever smaller and their welcome less warm or even denied on many estates and landowners . Given a bit more time the hunts will self destroy without the help of Mr Starmer in many parts of the country. It will also be interesting to see what happens in Wales following the proposal to ban greyhound racing. If that gets done horse racing will come under an even bigger spot light.
 
palo1 said:
Pirate packs will continue and likely attract the worst kind of people: as hare coursing has done where it was once highly respectable and effectively self regulated (however people may feel about the welfare of the hare) I have never been into coursing or hare hunting but I am aware of the history and evolution of that.
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I hope you aren't claiming here that hare coursing by "the wrong kind of people" is a post ban activity, because it certainly isn't.


ETA when no hunting is allowed at all then pirate packs will no longer be able to hide in plain sight among the licenced packs and everyone everywhere will know that they can call the police to have the hunt disbanded for the day. It will only need to be done a few times and the pirate packs will have nowhere left to go.

Let's be honest, licenced hunts could have reported pirate packs to the police and shut them down long ago - raising the question what they were doing themselves that prevented them from wanting to draw that attention to themselves.
 
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webble said:
Longhorn are becoming increasingly popular as a beef breed
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I actually buy Longhorn beef from a breeder that I know personally!

We farm beef cattle and I was really speaking from a large scale Commercial Cattle perspective rather than a Pedigree Breeder.
It was probably a bad example but you get my drift.

Edited to add the Longhorn Beef that I buy is probably the best beef I have ever tasted incidentally!
 
minesadouble said:
I actually buy Longhorn beef from a breeder that I know personally!

We farm beef cattle and I was really speaking from a large scale Commercial Cattle perspective rather than a Pedigree Breeder.
It was probably a bad example but you get my drift.

Edited to add the Longhorn Beef that I buy is probably the best beef I have ever tasted incidentally!
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I do, sorry my aspy brain thought it and so had to type it 🤣 In answer to the point you were actually making rather than what I picked up on (!) maybe we do let some die out if there isnt a place for them, sad as that is
 
minesadouble said:
H

Hound exercise is definitely not a smokescreen for cubbing! My daughters have been out numerous times on their ponies and our hunt also has cycle hound exercise sometimes followed by a BBQ.
It's not an early morning jaunt and I can hand on heart say the hounds haven't picked up a scent whenever I have been out.
It's a social occasion and fundraiser, lots of kids on the lead and people who often never hunt enjoying riding on land they don't normally have access to.
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In an area frequented by the Warwickshire and having previously been in Kimblewick territory, it absolutely was an excuse here as well sadly
 
Sandstone1 said:
I very much doubt and hope that " Hound exercise" will not be allowed. Why would you keep a pack on just to exercise them? What would happen should they accidently pick up a scent? You would be back to trail hunting! We will see..... Will farmers allow you on their land just to have a jolly?
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I've got a dog with an intense prey drive, there is no amount of training that would allow him to wander round the countryside off lead and not kill deer. I cant see how hounds bred for centuries to hunt foxes will suddenly get the memo that they are off the menu. I know there is a huge difference between sight hounds and hounds, but we accept that dogs bred for a specific purpose will either need to carry out that purpose or be carefully managed and given another outlet. I cant see owners of packs going to all the hassle and work I do with mine. It gets fairly tiresome. And he still has to be on his lead if deer are around.

I honestly think the humane thing to do would be to have them PTS rather than trying to shoe horn them into pet homes or keeping them and expecting them to go on jolly walks in the countryside but not hunt.
 
I think that the only thing we can be totally and absolutely sure of with our current government is that whatever legislation they bring in will be like a leaking sieve. It will be an unworkable nightmare and evading it will become the new hunt's sport. There will be endless challenges and struggles if it is to get through in this Parliament.

All the hunts will do is hang on and no doubt Farage will change it all back. I doubt the Tories will get in at the next GE so they won't be able to reverse it, Labour may get in with a very small majority, nightmares do happen. So it will be complete chaos and impossible to enforce whatever it is.

I think loss of land, urbanisation and those sort of things are more likely to curtail some of it.
 
equinerebel said:
Same way a fun ride is very clearly not hunting. You simply wouldn't be able to host a "party" with 5+ horses and a pack of hounds - for example. I'm not a legislator and won't pretend to be, but it seems pretty obvious to me the difference between a hunting party, and a non-hunting party.
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What exact behaviours of a draghunt could be banned? Would it be the putting of foxhounds/harriers/bloodhound onto any scent for example? That would be breed specific legislation....alternatively, allowing more than 2 dogs to follow a prelaid scent? That would be impossible to enforce, impact on other dog activities and would potentially offer people even more opportunity and impunity to hunt a natural scent. Principles and intentions are good but the law always relies on very specific objects and behaviours. Perhaps the govt would just ban anyone with any kind of dog that is not in a lead, ban more than one dog off lead etc etc.
 
ycbm said:
I hope you aren't claiming here that hare coursing by "the wrong kind of people" is a post ban activity, because it certainly isn't.
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I spoke to the dog warden at length about the laws around dogs and hunting because with 2 dogs one of whom looks a perfect candidate for hare coursing ,he told me they aren't stupid. If I'm wandering around with 2 dogs on leads wearing matching coats and collars and using bright pink longlines, its obvious that I'm not out coursing even if my dogs are bred for that sort of thing. Round here there is a huge drive to stop coursing and Thames Valley Rural Police have been up on the ridgeway daily with quads and off road bikes etc. They post about it on Facebook a lot, as its hugely popular with casual scrollers.
 
ycbm said:
I hope you aren't claiming here that hare coursing by "the wrong kind of people" is a post ban activity, because it certainly isn't.


ETA when no hunting is allowed at all then pirate packs will no longer be able to hide in plain sight among the licenced packs and everyone everywhere will know that they can call the police to have the hunt disbanded for the day. It will only need to be done a few times and the pirate packs will have nowhere left to go.

Let's be honest, licenced hunts could have reported pirate packs to the police and shut them down long ago - raising the question what they were doing themselves that prevented them from wanting to draw that attention to themselves.
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It is clear you have little to no experience of pirate hunting packs! They certainly do not hide in plain sight. Even when we have had a pirate pack of hounds on our land on a Sunday afternoon, it has been impossible to identify individuals, vehicles etc. These are not at all like an ordinary trail hunt - not in dress, behaviour, number or anything else. There may be a pack of hounds but that is basically the only similarity.

Hare coursing is a very different thing but pre-ban it DID include a much wider section of the community and there were generally adhered to codes of conduct within the coursing club's and meets. Hare coursing has become totally weaponised (literally) since the ban. Prior to that there were certainly rogue elements but it did not can use the trouble it does now.
 
palo1 said:
It is clear you have little to no experience of pirate hunting packs! They certainly do not hide in plain sight. Even when we have had a pirate pack of hounds on our land on a Sunday afternoon, it has been impossible to identify individuals, vehicles etc. These are not at all like an ordinary trail hunt - not in dress, behaviour, number or anything else. There may be a pack of hounds but that is basically the only similarity.

Hare coursing is a very different thing but pre-ban it DID include a much wider section of the community and there were generally adhered to codes of conduct within the coursing club's and meets. Hare coursing has become totally weaponised (literally) since the ban. Prior to that there were certainly rogue elements but it did not can use the trouble it does now.
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They hide in plain site among all the other hunting. If no hunting is allowed at all then any group of people out following a pack of hounds are automatically breaking the law. Everyone will know that and everyone and anyone will feel free to report them.

Legal hare coursing and illegal hare coursing by trespassing troublemakers coexisted long before the ban.

I don't think your argument that banning all hunting will cause a rise in pirate pack activity stacks up at all.
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ycbm said:
They hide in plain site among all the other hunting. If no hunting is allowed at all then any group of people out following a pack of hounds are automatically breaking the law. Everyone will know that and everyone and anyone will feel free to report them.

Legal hare coursing and illegal hare coursing by trespassing troublemakers coexisted long before the ban.

I don't think your argument that banning all hunting will cause a rise in pirate pack activity stacks up at all.
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Well, I hear you but are you suggesting banning a breed/type of dog or specific dog related activities? Unless extremely carefully drawn up that would also potentially finish off shooting and some other dog sports that might involve multiple depending on the countryside. This govt might well be happy with that, as would the Senedd be. If you don't think a ban would see more pirate pack hunting, I think that is naive tbh. A great many people who want to hunt with hounds don't give a fig for fancy dress, plaited (or indeed any) horses or any of the other familiar trappings of hunting.
 
equinerebel said:
Same way a fun ride is very clearly not hunting. You simply wouldn't be able to host a "party" with 5+ horses and a pack of hounds - for example. I'm not a legislator and won't pretend to be, but it seems pretty obvious to me the difference between a hunting party, and a non-hunting party.
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I understand this but I just don't think it possible : people would find many ways round breed specific legislation and how would this be policed effectively?
 
ycbm said:
The last 2 hunts I asked to shoot a horse said they don't do it. The one before that, which I was a member of, didn't get back to me for 10 days. Two knacker men I used instead were responsive and did a great job.

ETA you also write as if every area has access to a hunt fallen stock service and they don't. The last fallen stock service I used has a run from Lincolnshire to Cheshire, they are nothing to do with any hunt.
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Not every area still has, or even had, a local hunt.
We’re possibly extraordinarily lucky with local hunt(s) then, including out in the small hours on occasion, and always very fast if a welfare emergency. Ours have good reputations for handling horses, horse owners’ sensitivities understood, which some hunts don’t want to ‘touch’; but majority of their work always livestock, not equine.
For sure, fallen stock and renderer businesses travel huge distances, particularly since foot & mouth.
One that covers Yorks / North also went right down country to collect a beached whale to dispose - done at night, with police, because of public perceptions.
 
palo1 said:
It is clear you have little to no experience of pirate hunting packs! They certainly do not hide in plain sight. Even when we have had a pirate pack of hounds on our land on a Sunday afternoon, it has been impossible to identify individuals, vehicles etc. These are not at all like an ordinary trail hunt - not in dress, behaviour, number or anything else. There may be a pack of hounds but that is basically the only similarity.

Hare coursing is a very different thing but pre-ban it DID include a much wider section of the community and there were generally adhered to codes of conduct within the coursing club's and meets. Hare coursing has become totally weaponised (literally) since the ban. Prior to that there were certainly rogue elements but it did not can use the trouble it does now.
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Hare coursing?! Be jaysus, the Queen Mother was involved, goodness knows how many public figures, aristocrats, landowners as well as your working miners! Truly classless before the ban.
Today, it’s REALLY vicious, not just for hares.
 
palo1 said:
What exact behaviours of a draghunt could be banned? Would it be the putting of foxhounds/harriers/bloodhound onto any scent for example? That would be breed specific legislation....alternatively, allowing more than 2 dogs to follow a prelaid scent? That would be impossible to enforce, impact on other dog activities and would potentially offer people even more opportunity and impunity to hunt a natural scent. Principles and intentions are good but the law always relies on very specific objects and behaviours. Perhaps the govt would just ban anyone with any kind of dog that is not in a lead, ban more than one dog off lead etc etc.
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And good luck with that, please start with commercial dog walkers.
 
From a trustworthy point of view, I'd like to think I could trust my two nearest clean boot hunts, one of whom is based on and hunts across MoD land so you'd have to hope they were law abiding!

An older volunteer friend is out every week with our local hunt, and I know they've had issues over the years. You'd all know the type - life long hunting fan, begrudgingly gave up her patey, can see zero wrong with how it looks to the general public etc. Her constant FB posts from meets about 'look how wonderful it all is' 'time honoured tradition' 'lovely to see the local MP here' etc etc just come across as tone deaf, when that hunt still don't publish their hunt card for fear of trouble, and their country includes three well known large estates too... If you're not breaking the law, there's no need to worry surely? ;)
 
Exasperated said:
Hare coursing?! Be jaysus, the Queen Mother was involved, goodness knows how many public figures, aristocrats, landowners as well as your working miners! Truly classless before the ban.
Today, it’s REALLY vicious, not just for hares.
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Its for money. They bet huge sums on it, tens of thousands. And you know what? They are super, super wary and go to great lengths to avoid being caught. Lots just don't do it as its not worth the hassle.
 
Sandstone1 said:
The fact that so many people on this forum are in favour of a ban should tell you a lot..... Will Horse and Hound magazine and forum even exist in the future should trail hunting be banned???
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Maybe those that are in favour of trail and drag hunting aren't commenting on this thread? I haven't because it's clear that that a number of the contributors have made their minds up regardless of any evidence to the contrary. Lots of very offensive comments about the hunting community. Interestingly I subscribed to H&H magazine for in excess of 30 years but cancelled it when I worked out it took me less than 20 minutes to read it.
teapot said:
If you're not breaking the law, there's no need to worry surely? ;)
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Sabs are regularly disrupting legal trail laid hunting days, and being removed eventually by police, but not always. There was a video a couple of weeks ago where the huntsman challenged a sab about what he was doing, and the sab admitted on camera that he had seen them laying the trail.
IrishMilo said:
I have to say I have never seen a video of hunting, either clean boot or traditional, where I've thought 'What a respectful looking lot, with happy looking horses'.
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Goodness. What determines respectful looking? And my horse(s) are absolutely happy when out hunting, ears forward, listening to hounds, and one I had equated the sound of the quad (trail layer) to lots of fun.

Now there will be a barrage of replies telling me exactly why I am wrong.
 
I would be in favour of drag hunting if I fully trusted my local hunts. I don’t. They are amongst the most notorious law breakers who have proven time and time again that they will do whatever they want (kill foxes), over any land they want, whenever they want, and you just need to get out of their way. Your pets included.

No one disputes that some sabs have also behaved terribly.
 
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