Goodbye to Hounds

I agree - fence your hens in, give them a decent sized area and keep them safe. It’s not rocket science. We lost more hens to stoats and weasels than we ever did foxes. Fox hunting achieves nothing when it comes to pest control anyway. And while I didn’t want rats chewing through my wooden stables, we always found deterrents better than killing them.
 
Selfishly, I will be utterly heartbroken if trail hunting is banned. When I moved to Australia I gave my wonderful yellow horse to some friends, he is the huntsman for a pack in the northeast. My yellow pony has never been happier than he is now, as a huntsman's horse.

If hunting is banned and they have to find another job, I will likely end up having to pay £30k to bring him over here, for a life he wouldn't enjoy half as much as he does hunting. We've tried almost every discipline out there, but hunting is what makes his little yellow ears prick and his heart sing.
 
Burnttoast said:
Actually I love rats (not the fact that they can spread disease, but the animals themselves). They are hugely resourceful and intelligent. We admire these qualities in ourselves. The best way to keep on top of their numbers is cleanliness. We switched to a good treadle feeder last year and have seen a big
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Burnttoast said:
Actually I love rats (not the fact that they can spread disease, but the animals themselves). They are hugely resourceful and intelligent. We admire these qualities in ourselves. The best way to keep on top of their numbers is cleanliness. We switched to a good treadle feeder last year and have seen a big drop in numbers.
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Funnily enough our biggest problem with rats is in the hay which is kept on a farm that has no livestock at all now and therefore no feed. Nobody's going to pay £5 a bale for hay that's covered in rat sh!t.
 
Clodagh said:
I live in rural Devon. I’d be excommunicated.
Besides, you are all saying rats are dear little things. They have rights to eat too, surely?
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There's a difference between feeding and allowing to eat. I personally don't mind that the rats in my garden eat some of the bird food that ends up on the ground, I love watching them scurry about and sit eating with their little hands. They've never been a problem, haven't come near the house and haven't over populated. Possibly due to my very loud malinois 😅 I haven't ever put out food for the rats specifically though and if they did become a problem, I'd stop feeding the birds until I could rethink.
You don't have to kill them. Like you said, owls and such like to eat them, I'm lucky enough to have owls near me! There's a few pest controllers who will prevent rather than kill too.
 
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Clodagh said:
I live in rural Devon. I’d be excommunicated.
Besides, you are all saying rats are dear little things. They have rights to eat too, surely?
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as above, they are perfectly capable of making a living without our help. Have to say you make the people of Devon sound delightful - don't they actually have consideration for their neighbours? Maybe just ask them to leave off feeding for a bit if officialdom is such a no-no? I live in rural Norfolk and admittedly f**kwits are everywhere but our neighbours are very reasonable.
 
Shantara said:
Legal or not, predators deserve to be happy and a chance at life too. Plus, shooting foxes does nothing to the population. It just encourages foxes to take the territory. There aren't really that many foxes in the UK, so surely if shooting them worked, you wouldn't have to keep shooting.
Secure your animals properly and you won't have a problem.
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I’m in rural Somerset and there is NO shortage of foxes. We see 2 or 3 frequently sunbathing in the field opposite us, and this is despite them frequently being shot. As for keeping hens, to enable them to have a reasonable amount of space to live happy lives without being in a mud patch and keeping the fox out would be inordinately expensive so we have conceded defeat and buy eggs. We have kept poultry for 40+ years in Derbyshire but since moving down here it’s just not viable.
 

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Irish-Only said:
I’m in rural Somerset and there is NO shortage of foxes. We see 2 or 3 frequently sunbathing in the field opposite us, and this is despite them frequently being shot. As for keeping hens, to enable them to have a reasonable amount of space to live happy lives without being in a mud patch and keeping the fox out would be inordinately expensive so we have conceded defeat and buy eggs. We have kept poultry for 40+ years in Derbyshire but since moving down here it’s just not viable.
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You'll see where I also posted the number of foxes :)
I had 5 foxes in one field for a time. They were wonderful to watch. The population soon went down, as foxes often don't make it past 18 months, the luckiest one survived until at least 4, despite being deep in hunting country and missing his tail! He only had one litter as far as I know, 4 were born, one survived.
Only 1 of the cubs from the other group I watched stayed in the area, I believe one other survived, but she vanished at around 9 months.
In the grand scheme of things, even at its highest at 450-480 000 isn't that many. It's an alright number but we're hardly wading through them on the way to the shops.
 
Shantara said:
You'll see where I also posted the number of foxes :)
I had 5 foxes in one field for a time. They were wonderful to watch. The population soon went down, as foxes often don't make it past 18 months, the luckiest one survived until at least 4, despite being deep in hunting country and missing his tail! He only had one litter as far as I know, 4 were born, one survived.
Only 1 of the cubs from the other group I watched stayed in the area, I believe one other survived, but she vanished at around 9 months.
In the grand scheme of things, even at its highest at 450-480 000 isn't that many. It's an alright number but we're hardly wading through them on the way to the shops.
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Unless you are where I live or in a city where they are ten a penny 🙄
 
teapot said:
Pest control is needed though in this country - sure some of you will have noticed the vastly increased herds of deer because they're not being properly managed.

As for not that many foxes around - I can see up to five in one evening alone and I live in a town...
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Deer are everywhere, coming into the village, wandering on roads. Theres been a population explosion. Soone or later its going to reach crisis point. Theres no shortage of fox either.
 
Shantara said:
There's a difference between feeding and allowing to eat. I personally don't mind that the rats in my garden eat some of the bird food that ends up on the ground, I love watching them scurry about and sit eating with their little hands. They've never been a problem, haven't come near the house and haven't over populated. Possibly due to my very loud malinois 😅 I haven't ever put out food for the rats specifically though and if they did become a problem, I'd stop feeding the birds until I could rethink.
You don't have to kill them. Like you said, owls and such like to eat them, I'm lucky enough to have owls near me! There's a few pest controllers who will prevent rather than kill too.
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You will soon change your mind when they chew through your car wiring or come into the house.

The dog might keep them away from you, but what about your neighbours?
 
I'm Dun said:
Deer are everywhere, coming into the village, wandering on roads. Theres been a population explosion. Soone or later its going to reach crisis point. Theres no shortage of fox either.
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No shortage of people either. I'd say we're much more of an issue than any animal.
I'm Dun said:
You will soon change your mind when they chew through your car wiring or come into the house.

The dog might keep them away from you, but what about your neighbours?
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They also have dogs 😁
 
Shantara said:
No shortage of people either. I'd say we're much more of an issue than any animal.

They also have dogs 😁
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You honestly dont see an issue with having a huge population of deer that's completely out of control with no predators?

You've clearly been lucky so far with the rats. I wasn't and having dogs did nothing to keep them out.
 
I'm Dun said:
You honestly dont see an issue with having a huge population of deer that's completely out of control with no predators?

You've clearly been lucky so far with the rats. I wasn't and having dogs did nothing to keep them out.
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I didn't mention deer.
As much as I don't want any animal to die - a creature who doesn't self regulate (like foxes do) and has no predator does need proper human management. Normally I would welcome something like wolves, but gun happy loons who cant even cope with tiny foxes would soon wipe them out again.
But yes, we're much worse than deer!

The only creatures I've had a problem with are slugs. Every morning there was a new one! I just pop them back outside at the end of the garden, they can slowly make their way back up if they want.
 
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Shantara said:
As much as I don't want any animal to die - a creature who doesn't self regulate (like foxes do) and has no predator does need proper human management.
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And this is when we circle back to hunting.. fox hunting (illegal I know) is a discriminatory way of controlling the population that actually benefits the species overall- killing the old, sick or weak and letting the healthier foxes live, the regular running of hounds over fox territory actual discourages breeding, reducing numbers without killing. Despite appearances a foxhound gives a fox a quick and certain death, and its as close to nature as you can get for predatory control.

Of course this is if foxhunting was carried out without the practices of digging out and cubbing and I'm saying this completely aware that it is illegal in the UK.
But the fact remains, even the hunting report at the time of the hunting act concluded that foxhounds were the best method of fox control.. for the fox.

I love wildlife, wild spaces and animals. I am pro hunting due to the above reasoning. Personally, like yourself I really dislike killing anything but when it must be done, the cleanest, fairest way possible is what I would choose and I know I will get massively shot down for this view but I do believe that method is fair and well executed hunting with hounds, which obviously should not be happening now it is illegal, but my point still stands in this context.
 
emilylou said:
Personally, like yourself I really dislike killing anything but when it must be done, the cleanest, fairest way possible is what I would choose and I know I will get massively shot down for this view but I do believe that method is fair and well executed hunting with hounds, which obviously should not be happening now it is illegal, but my point still stands in this context.
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You think chasing a fox to exhaustion to be ripped apart by a pack of hounds is the cleanest, fairest way? You're kidding?
 
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Fox hunting with a pack of hounds is illegal - whatever "hunting within the law" means.

The question at present is the future of trail hunting. I really enjoy going to the meet, I see people there I have known for 50 years or more, once we used to go hunting together, now we are all past it.! There are people I know from all over the county and there is a surprisingly good turnout of children on ponies too. But in total numbers, maybe 50 people.

It seems sad that these 50 people, plus the 30 odd people on foot should provoke the ire of those who are determined to see the end of any pack of hounds.
 
emilylou said:
And this is when we circle back to hunting.. fox hunting (illegal I know) is a discriminatory way of controlling the population that actually benefits the species overall- killing the old, sick or weak and letting the healthier foxes live, the regular running of hounds over fox territory actual discourages breeding, reducing numbers without killing. Despite appearances a foxhound gives a fox a quick and certain death, and its as close to nature as you can get for predatory control.
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Except foxes self regulate their population. Deer don't. Terrorising wildlife isn't right!
Getting torn apart by dogs after being relentlessly chased is so cruel. It's quick for the lucky ones. Not the ones who're still alive while their head is slowly crushed, while they're dismembered or disemboweled.
I know other animals do that to each other (painted dogs for example, sparrowhawks for another) but we as humans don't have to be cruel to survive. We can choose kindness, so why don't we?
 
Orangehorse said:
Fox hunting with a pack of hounds is illegal - whatever "hunting within the law" means.

The question at present is the future of trail hunting. I really enjoy going to the meet, I see people there I have known for 50 years or more, once we used to go hunting together, now we are all past it.! There are people I know from all over the county and there is a surprisingly good turnout of children on ponies too. But in total numbers, maybe 50 people.

It seems sad that these 50 people, plus the 30 odd people on foot should provoke the ire of those who are determined to see the end of any pack of hounds.
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I would welcome the sight of people enjoying the countryside with animals, but not at the expense of the wildlife. As I and others have said previously, they've had TWENTY YEARS to sort this out, but they enjoy torturing animals far too much.
 
skinnydipper said:
You think chasing a fox to exhaustion to be ripped apart by a pack of hounds is the cleanest, fairest way? You're kidding?
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Simply put: no. That is not what I said. I'd explain further but the nuance of my previous post is clearly lost on you and I accept that we wont agree

Shantara said:
Except foxes self regulate their population. Deer don't.
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I'm genuinely interested to hear how foxes self regulate without a predatory presence, I haven't heard of that before.
 
How do we choose which wildlife?

Reducing fox numbers by 43 per cent resulted in a three-fold increase in breeding success for lapwings, golden plovers, curlews, red grouse and meadow pipits.
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Hare densities at a farm in Leicestershire have declined from a high of more than 50 per km2 when predator control was carried out to less than 8 per km2 at a count in 2006 after a period of several years with no predator control.
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I'm no longer pro hunting and 2yrs ago helped raised 3 fox cubs when their parents were killed on the road, but I also understand that its not as simple as leaving animals alone and it will all be fine. Its deer I'm more worried about, as its a crisis waiting to happen, but that's just one issue. Humans are here, we have irrevocably changed the landscape.
 
emilylou said:
Simply put: no. That is not what I said. I'd explain further but the nuance of my previous post is clearly lost on you and I accept that we wont agree



I'm genuinely interested to hear how foxes self regulate without a predatory presence, I haven't heard of that before.
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they dont, we actually dont know how many foxes there are and have never known, its a guesstimate. Its assumed population levels are relatively stable, but thats becuase people carry out pest control and reduce numbers
 
emilylou said:
I'm genuinely interested to hear how foxes self regulate without a predatory presence, I haven't heard of that before.
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I'd assume because their food supply can diminish/vary depending on the amount of foxes around - there's always a plentiful supply of grass and other vegetation around for deer? The only exception being through the winter months, although there will still be some.
 
emilylou said:
And this is when we circle back to hunting.. fox hunting (illegal I know) is a discriminatory way of controlling the population that actually benefits the species overall- killing the old, sick or weak and letting the healthier foxes live, the regular running of hounds over fox territory actual discourages breeding, reducing numbers without killing. Despite appearances a foxhound gives a fox a quick and certain death, and its as close to nature as you can get for predatory control.

Of course this is if foxhunting was carried out without the practices of digging out and cubbing and I'm saying this completely aware that it is illegal in the UK.
But the fact remains, even the hunting report at the time of the hunting act concluded that foxhounds were the best method of fox control.. for the fox.

I love wildlife, wild spaces and animals. I am pro hunting due to the above reasoning. Personally, like yourself I really dislike killing anything but when it must be done, the cleanest, fairest way possible is what I would choose and I know I will get massively shot down for this view but I do believe that method is fair and well executed hunting with hounds, which obviously should not be happening now it is illegal, but my point still stands in this context.
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Absolutely. But the Hunting Act never was about what is best for the fox as a species. Even when death by hounds was not immediate it was absolutely no worse than the death a fox would have at the teeth of another apex predator. The death of a fox by wolves, lions or other natural predators is not an easy one. Nor is the death of a rabbit by hawk or actually most deaths in nature. Sickness and starvation are grim. My experience of legal fox hunting (pre-ban) was not unpalatable for me from an individual or species perspective yet anti hunters express all manner of things which seems very distant from that reality.
 
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