Goodbye to Hounds

emilylou said:
I'm genuinely interested to hear how foxes self regulate without a predatory presence, I haven't heard of that before.
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They tend to breed to the resources they have.
Not every vixen will breed every year, similar to wolves, related foxes will often help raise this years cubs and not have them themselves.
My tail less fox Corgi only sired one litter in the 4yrs I watched him, there were at least 2 or 3 females I could identify in his area. (Chitta and Vision (she was the mother of his litter and had one eye), one i never named).
 
emilylou said:
And this is when we circle back to hunting.. fox hunting (illegal I know) is a discriminatory way of controlling the population that actually benefits the species overall- killing the old, sick or weak and letting the healthier foxes live, the regular running of hounds over fox territory actual discourages breeding, reducing numbers without killing. Despite appearances a foxhound gives a fox a quick and certain death, and its as close to nature as you can get for predatory control.

Of course this is if foxhunting was carried out without the practices of digging out and cubbing and I'm saying this completely aware that it is illegal in the UK.
But the fact remains, even the hunting report at the time of the hunting act concluded that foxhounds were the best method of fox control.. for the fox.

I love wildlife, wild spaces and animals. I am pro hunting due to the above reasoning. Personally, like yourself I really dislike killing anything but when it must be done, the cleanest, fairest way possible is what I would choose and I know I will get massively shot down for this view but I do believe that method is fair and well executed hunting with hounds, which obviously should not be happening now it is illegal, but my point still stands in this context.
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Neither the Burns Report in 2000 nor the Bonomy review in 2016 could conclude that hunting with hounds was not the best form of control of foxes which may be needed for a variety of reasons. That has never really sunk in with anti hunters but they are likely more concerned with individual welfare issues than wider species and biodiversity ones.
 
palo1 said:
Absolutely. But the Hunting Act never was about what is best for the fox as a species. Even when death by hounds was not immediate it was absolutely no worse than the death a fox would have at the teeth of another apex predator. The death of a fox by wolves, lions or other natural predators is not an easy one. Nor is the death of a rabbit by hawk or actually most deaths in nature. Sickness and starvation are grim. My experience of legal fox hunting (pre-ban) was not unpalatable for me from an individual or species perspective yet anti hunters express all manner of things which seems very distant from that reality.
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Since when do hunters care about fox welfare?
Why are they digging out perfectly healthy foxes, whooping like apes, almost creaming their pants when they see there's a brace?
Why are they bagging healthy foxes?
Pull the other one.
Nature is cruel, but humans are needlessly cruel.
 
Shantara said:
Since when do hunters care about fox welfare?
Why are they digging out perfectly healthy foxes, whooping like apes, almost creaming their pants when they see there's a brace?
Why are they bagging healthy foxes?
Pull the other one.
Nature is cruel, but humans are needlessly cruel.
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I know what video you are referring to and it made me sick. Really not on board with that and neither, you will find, are a lot of pro hunters.
There are those that are pro 'proper' hunting that requires skill and allows a healthy fox away, and those that just enjoy killing. The former regularly condemn the behaviour of the latter.
Unfortunately they are usually lumped together by anti's, and then intersped with people inbetween that is why this whole discussion is fraught with misunderstanding (both sides) and nuance is required
but I do respect your view, I think strangely we probably agree on a lot of points - one being that when humans collide with nature there will always be conflict and that wildlife should be able to exist in as natural a way as possible, with minimal human interference

Its a shame we exist at all really isn't it? The world would be a glorious place without us ;)
 
emilylou said:
There are those that are pro 'proper' hunting that requires skill and allows a healthy fox away, and those that just enjoy killing. The former regularly condemn the behaviour of the latter.
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So where are these skilled pro “proper” hunts regularly condemning bad behaviour ? They should be shouting from the rooftops and making their voices heard, yet I hear and see nothing from them. The loudest voice should be the MFHA/ BHSA, yet they turn a blind eye and sweep the vile actions of hunts under the carpet - that silence speaks volumes !!
 
emilylou said:
I know what video you are referring to and it made me sick. Really not on board with that and neither, you will find, are a lot of pro hunters.
There are those that are pro 'proper' hunting that requires skill and allows a healthy fox away, and those that just enjoy killing. The former regularly condemn the behaviour of the latter.
Unfortunately they are usually lumped together by anti's, and then intersped with people inbetween that is why this whole discussion is fraught with misunderstanding (both sides) and nuance is required
but I do respect your view, I think strangely we probably agree on a lot of points - one being that when humans collide with nature there will always be conflict and that wildlife should be able to exist in as natural a way as possible, with minimal human interference

Its a shame we exist at all really isn't it? The world would be a glorious place without us ;)
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Agreed. That video was utterly sickening and for many reasonable pro hunters, completely transgressive. I hope never to be within spitting distance of the individuals involved. Yes, hunters are concerned with fox welfare and biodiversity. There is considerable evidence of that if people cared to look or listen. Hunters have much in common with anti hunters but sadly that is rarely acknowledged.
 
emilylou said:
proper' hunting that requires skill and allows a healthy fox away
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You've lost me there. I've been fox hunting. The huntsman hasn't been near enough to the fox to know that the fox was in prime health and should be let go until the pack were too close to stop them killing it.

I'm also completely unaware of any hunt that stops hunting in, say, January because the last unhealthy or old fox has been caught, they all hunt to the close of the hunting season and catch whatever can be caught.

If you plan to say they deliberately don't catch the healthy ones once the unhealthy ones are gone, then you will be saying that the healthy ones are chased purely for the fun of it, I think?
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emilylou said:
and those that just enjoy killing. The former regularly condemn the behaviour of the latter
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Not in public with names they don't. Not even when they know for a fact that they are hunting illegally.
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Burnttoast said:
They must be getting food from somewhere. The hay spoiling was our issue until we cleaned up our act, as it were.
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Next door there's a plant hire place and the other side is that is a small industrial estate type place so who knows. We stopped doing straw because of the vermin but it's not made a hell of a lot of difference.
 
emilylou said:
I know what video you are referring to and it made me sick. Really not on board with that and neither, you will find, are a lot of pro hunters.
There are those that are pro 'proper' hunting that requires skill and allows a healthy fox away, and those that just enjoy killing. The former regularly condemn the behaviour of the latter.
Unfortunately they are usually lumped together by anti's, and then intersped with people inbetween that is why this whole discussion is fraught with misunderstanding (both sides) and nuance is required
but I do respect your view, I think strangely we probably agree on a lot of points - one being that when humans collide with nature there will always be conflict and that wildlife should be able to exist in as natural a way as possible, with minimal human interference

Its a shame we exist at all really isn't it? The world would be a glorious place without us ;)
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Much as every Charlotte du Jardin incident hitting the news has the potential to end horse sports for everyone, every video like that one has the potential to end hunting for everyone. We took the CDJ incident seriously - many, many horse owners were vocal in their condemnation. That's what drumming this stuff out looks like. It's ugly and it involves speaking up - not making excuses and saying "well I don't do that so it's not my problem". There is a collective responsibility to make better choices, to drive progress and not let these behaviours survive.

If trail hunting is banned along with those who have ignored the ban, that's on every single person who has swept these sorts of incidents under the carpet.

I went trail hunting once. The master was absolutely furious because a fox had a lucky escape. A hound got battered for it. It was a horrible experience, and one I never repeated. That wasn't a hunt known for illegal hunting - just a boring, local, "normal" hunt. So no, I don't think it's just a few bad eggs in the well known hunts. It's a systemic problem and the easiest way to deal with that is to ban the lot and be done.

And, for those making spurious comparisons with other species, or pest control in general - being anti-hunting doesn't mean being anti-pest control. There are more humane methods of destroying animals.
 
Miss_Millie said:
I was actually implying that maybe we should all be having less children collectively, given that the human population has tripled in the last 100 years.
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People of this country generally are, our birth rate is going down (the Radford family excepted). IMO all the worlds problems with pollution, rubbish, loss of habitat, etc, down to the fact that there are simply too many people in the world.
 
palo1 said:
Back on topic, hounds are showing well at Crufts! 🤩
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Foxhounds are beautiful dogs, I would love one some day! I hope she does well :)
Miss_Millie said:
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I wish that humans would 'self regulate' - far too many of us, breeding loads of livestock to feed ourselves, vs. 6% wild animals. Who are the real pests I wonder?
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Absolutely agree! My Mum says she wishes she hadn't had children (thanks, Mum!!) but that was normal, so she felt she had to. She's very glad my brothers and I don't have any! I was absolutely shocked to hear someone at work saying they wanted at least 4!! :O
 
Shantara said:
Foxhounds are beautiful dogs, I would love one some day! I hope she does well :)

Absolutely agree! My Mum says she wishes she hadn't had children (thanks, Mum!!) but that was normal, so she felt she had to. She's very glad my brothers and I don't have any! I was absolutely shocked to hear someone at work saying they wanted at least 4!! :O
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Foxhounds are beautiful they are less than ideal pets for the average dog owner .
 
JFTDWS said:
And, for those making spurious comparisons with other species, or pest control in general - being anti-hunting doesn't mean being anti-pest control. There are more humane methods of destroying animals.
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It was brought up by someone condemning hunting, so there's a link in at least some cases.
 
Goldenstar said:
The planet does not need more people .
When I read experts saying we need to have more children i just think whatever.
While of course it causes problems to be managed .
The planet does not need us it’s us that needs the planet.
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Capitalism needs humans to breed to support the system. Birth rates are dropping and there will be a point where current society isn't sustainable.
 
I'm Dun said:
Capitalism needs humans to breed to support the system. Birth rates are dropping and there will be a point where current society isn't sustainable.
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I used to think this but now I'm not so sure. Robots are becoming so advanced that they can replace children growing up now to make the future workforce. At some point we're going to need to pay people an "average" salary to be unemployed so that society still consumes enough to create the taxes that pay for public services. That's a big hurdle to be got over, but not unforeseeable.

I think resource depletion is the big one that will limit mankind, but there will be some horrendous wars over scarce resources. Which is why Musk is planning to mine the moon.
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Long time lurker here, but have to say this was always going to happen with so many hunts taking the mickey, and also others generally not moderating their behaviour with regards to landowners etc.

We had a hunt here very recently who used to notify local yard owners etc.

Not any more, now they just barrel through without worrying about upsetting local horses, at least two local riders had falls.

It would be a huge shame if clean boot was affected due to this
Orangehorse said:
That's it then folks. Having heard how the Prime Minister treated the NFU and farmer representatives at the meeting, where they were basically thrown out and told "we are the elected government, we are in charge and we decide on policy and we aren't going to even talk to you about the effects of our policies" there is no hope for hunting at all.

Banning trail hunting was in the manifesto, so it will be done. No amount of video recordings of trail laying, diary entries or reasoned debate will have the slightest difference. I even wonder if drag hunting with "the clean boot" will survive.

I know that there are plenty of people who were against fox hunting, but I would say that there are also plenty of hunts who do comply faithfully with the law and set trails and do everything correctly, and condemn those that do not.

Equestrian medalists from the Parish Olympics were ignored in recent honours list.

The Government seems to be at war with the countryside and those that live in it.
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