Got to be cruel to be kind....

pizzi said:
Many of the sanctuaries are now telling people who can no longer keep their horses, who contact them, to get them put down, so perhaps those horses the sanctuaries have, that are old and infirm should have a quick and dignified end to allow room for some of the younger horses who need a place in them?
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I disagree with this - why should the older horse be pts just because someone has decided they can no longer afford 'a younger model'? The owner should take responsibility and if so, pts themselves. The charities aren't supposed to be dumping grounds for those that can't afford/can't be bothered with their horses. The charities are right for what they are telling the owners.

I can see where OP is coming from (if you mean horses at sanctuaries should be pts at 25) but I don't really agree - theres no difference between a horse aged 24 and one aged 25 IMO....

Its the bad breeding that needs to be sorted out.
 
I know this will never happen...but

I would be very happy to donate both time and money to any charity that had the b*lls, who when they got the sob story from the owner about the horse they had to take because it was *old/lame/unrideable/on longterm meds/unhandled/unrehomable by the owner (*delete as applicable) actually arrive there, get the owner to sign it over and then PTS on the spot.

Too many people do not take responsibility for their animals. Part and parcel of that responsibility is realising that a) not all horses can be fixed and b) if you as the owner cannot/will not make the hard decisions why the h*ll do you expect anybody else to your dirty work for you? Just so the original owner can have a warm glow that their horse has been 'saved' and they are absolved of all responsibility...

I also suspect that there are many sanctuaries who, while it is all with the best intentions actually lose sight of their stated aims of rehabilitating and rehoming their animals. I can understand that and would personally hate to have to make the 'who lives and who dies' decision but if they are a registered charity and are fundraising on those terms I do struggle with that.
 
Goldenstar said:
It's really up to the charities to decide how they make these choices when horses have ended up ion their care.
As an owner I would never pass on an oldie I Jusy saw too many old horses in terrible trouble when I was a welfare officer.
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Indeed it is. I was putting forward a different approach to same problem as th OP. We would never pass on our oldies either, all our horses stay with us to the end, whether this is one month or almost 40. If something catastrophic occurred and we were unable to keep any horse, we would not be offering it free to a home or asking a charity to look after it. They are ALL our responsibility.
 
I was talking about rescued horses living their days out at sanctuaries, not those who are blessed to live their days out at home. The sanctuaries are full of old, not sound horses taking up much needed room for younger not sound, injured horses who also deserve a chance at a few years of the good life.
 
Hmmm, I'm fortunate enough to have my own land and have had/have oldies that I take complete responsibility for and will have their dieing day at home.

I agree that when you take on. Horse you take on a huge responsibility and in an ideal world you should have your horse u til the end. Would you sell on a dog when it gets a little old and pottery?

Howe er, many many people have to keep their horses at livery at huge expense, should they be keeping on their old horses until their dieing day, or should they have them pts to make room for a new model?

Just pondering, as I genuinely don't know what people on livery do with their old horses? Sell then when they can I guess...
 
I agree with Pearlslinger, only reason why i thought of age was because in the wild they with the young and very ill are the ones that normally go out first. Interesting ideas coming through though.
 
I don't think this is a long term solution, just a way of treating the surface problem and probably losing a lot of support from people donating. Any horses requiring medical treatment which means they don't have a proper quality of life or becomes an expensive running cost (as in its far more expensive to keep, not simply changing routine but spending on routine treatment) should be pts, other than that no I don't agree, each horse is a commitment for its life. All you do is open a space up that could still be filled a thousand times over. I think that some of the high profile cases that have had 10k+ spent keeping alive probably shouldnt happen. But deciding on a set age I don't agree with. Should be done on an individual case by case basis. They aren't in the wild so I don't think we can use this as a reason to pts if there is something younger waiting to come in, we have chosen to breed them without controlling numbers as would be in the wild.
The root problem is too many unwanted horses being bred and this is what needs addressing.

Tallyho I don't agree with charges. You still get idiots keeping and breeding... They'd simply be richer idiots. And you'd rule a lot of people caring for several horses well out to end up with less and then those horses would need to go somewhere.
 
putasocinit said:
I was talking about rescued horses living their days out at sanctuaries, not those who are blessed to live their days out at home. The sanctuaries are full of old, not sound horses taking up much needed room for younger not sound, injured horses who also deserve a chance at a few years of the good life.
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They aren't all though are they? That would be the problem with introducing a blanket rule/law.
There isn't one unsound horse with us, and they range from 9 months to 40 years old.
We also do advise PTS to some owners who ask us to take their horses.

I just think it's a far too subjective issue for a straight age limit to cover all sanctuaries.
 
Sadly abandonement, neglect, overbreeding is not going to stop, guess we need to find more land to put these poor animals on, wish i could win the lotto.

I fear some old horses that were at livery end up being given to a friend as a hack who ends up giving it to a friend and it might end up at a sanctuary. I did say you got to be cruel to be kind and yes there is a fine line between.
 
Cbmcts I would have no problem with this. I do think that in situations of owner dying and leaving money, this should be taken into consideration if healthy - effectively paying full livery for them somewhere.
Behavioural and medical conditions are quite often reason enough to pts but an owner doesn't always want to make the decision in which case I'd be happy someone else making it.
I do think too many pts cases have money thrown at them to save them rather than looking at the bigger picture for the individual horse and others.

However if doing this I'd want the charity to state that this happened, not try to hide it. I wouldn't be impressed to find it out, but would happily support one who took this stance and got owners to take on this responsibility.. promoting that pts wasn't the worst thing, but poor welfare was.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Sorry I can't see why a license is needed. Sanctuaries/charities decide atm when to pts or not, based on whatever criteria they decide, presumably quality of life in most cases. IMO, they could extend their quality of life criteria to the capability of being re-homed. If the animal is unable to be rehomed, even as a companion, they should pts rather than keeping on their own premises, thus freeing up a space for another 'rescue'.
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Breeding pearl, not the sanctuaries.
 
It would be a slippery slope if there was legislation as to how charities can spend voluntary donations. Perhaps rescue centres should be more up front about pts, after all dog and cat rescues put down any animal that cannot be rehomed due to health or behaviour issues.
 
More sanctuaries is not the answer. They will fill up as quickly as the next one opens its gates.
 
tallyho! said:
I think a horse levy will be an effective way to control the problem.

There has to be govt intervention as the charities, societies and boards are not effective enough. The passport system for non-pedigree horses is a complete joke.

Breeding needs regulation and so does ownership.

None of us would like to see a horse-tax being imposed but licensing could contribute a lot more towards horse-ownership than we may think. It would give us greater rights and safeguard vulnerable horses and ponies who at the moment rely almost solely on kind donations which, as we have seen, do not do much to help.
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A good idea in theory,but in practice - no. Let's face it, those owners such as the majority of us on here would pay up and grumble, but those who breed low end horses in huge numbers would never pay up and as usual no action would be taken.

I totally agree with more stringent licensing for stallions and for mares too. Welsh colts only need to be sound with 2 balls and they are granted a licence, there are some really dubious welsh stallions out there and breeders are churning out loads of sub standard welsh mountain ponies year after year just to sell for a few quid if they are lucky at Hay- on- Wye what is the point?
 
maisie06 said:
A good idea in theory,but in practice - no. Let's face it, those owners such as the majority of us on here would pay up and grumble, but those who breed low end horses in huge numbers would never pay up and as usual no action would be taken.
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I disagree.

A tax would create a policing system and effective laws leading to better prosecution of those who break it.

Everyone said taxing cars would be good in theory only... Except its a system that works for the majority.

We can all continue to make excuses as to why horse tax would not work and oppose it however, it's clear that the equine industry needs to be managed better.

A the very least, all breeders have to have a licence and those caught breeding without one face heavy consequences. This would most certainly stop the :

My mare is lame, I will put her to some stallion etc etc...

You simply cannot breed from your mare unless you have a licence to do so.

The big breeders will welcome this.
 
tallyho! said:
I disagree.

A tax would create a policing system and effective laws leading to better prosecution of those who break it.

Everyone said taxing cars would be good in theory only... Except its a system that works for the majority.

We can all continue to make excuses as to why horse tax would not work and oppose it however, it's clear that the equine industry needs to be managed better.

A the very least, all breeders have to have a licence and those caught breeding without one face heavy consequences. This would most certainly stop the :

My mare is lame, I will put her to some stallion etc etc...

You simply cannot breed from your mare unless you have a licence to do so.

The big breeders will welcome this.
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A tax unless it was a huge figure would cost more to collect and police than it would raise .
To make it work effectively it would a big net work of inspectors making sure every horse was kept taxed unless the checks where robust it would be just like passports where all the good owners had them complied with the rules and all the tethered at the side of the road brigade ignores it and everyone ignored them just like now.
But where is the evidence that hobby breeders are the issue , I don't mean idiots with semi feral herds and those fields of awful quality coloured cobs you see everywhere I mean people taking a foal from a much loved mare .
The market is stuffed with poor quality continental and Irish imports that dealers bring in very cheaply I suspect if we knew the figures hobby breeders is a tiny figure .
TB births last year had reduced drastically sooner or later the Irish non TB breeders will reduce figures too.
I don't know about the continent .
It's all about responsiblity and realism if your horse is sick or lame and yes even old and you cant keep it have it PTS we have got to squeamish about things.
A licence would be largely ignored by those causing the problems.
Car tax which is ignored by many people And works only because the cars are on the road clearly marked and that would not work for horses.
As for my mare is lame I will breed from it I would rather buy a foal from a mare who had a spavin having hunted ten seasons than one from a soft sloppy young mare who had lived in a barn all her life and was sound because she had done no work these are not black and white things.
It's difficult to see the sense in preventing someone breeding at home while allowing unrestricted access to our market to horses say from Ireland and god knows what the low end mares are like there.
Hobby breeders are not the issue provided they have a realistic plan for the foal and are prepared to PTS if they are unlucky and get a badly impaired foal which is bad luck and can happen to any mare.
 
Taxing would never work. Car tax works because of registration plates. The massive cost of administering a horse tax system, with a good chance of getting caught & fined if you didn't tax would mean the actual tax would need to be huge for there to be any profit. If I decided not to tax my car, there is a pretty high chance that even with low mileage I'd get spotted driving round sooner or later. But, if I didn't tax my horses, there's virtually no chance anybody would notice, even with a good system in place. And even if I got the equine equivalent of a producer, unlike with a car with a chassis number it would be easy to just use a fake.
 
there seems to be alot of companion horses/ponies in rescue places. ponies are most of the time easier to keep as a companion so maybe the horses that are ONLY for companions should be pts and any ponies that have big problems like on going lami where it would need to be stabled alot of the time, most of them wouldn't be of use as a companion. i know that probably sounds harsh and i don't mean it to come across like that.
i dont' think age should be taken into account though unless they have obvious problems where it would cost alot of money in medication.
horses/ponies with behavioural issues that even the rescue centre can't solve should be pts.
alot of owners can't afford to pts, we know the hunt will do it a bit cheaper but it's still alot of money (a friend was quoted £250 by hunt) also alot of people don't like the idea of the hunt doing the job so maybe rescue places could come to some kind of arrangement with vets that if they get called upon to take a horse in that they would recommend pts they could offer a reduced rate for the owners so the owner is still making the decision? i'm not sure how that would work but it could be an option.
 
Littlelegs said:
Taxing would never work. Car tax works because of registration plates. The massive cost of administering a horse tax system, with a good chance of getting caught & fined if you didn't tax would mean the actual tax would need to be huge for there to be any profit. If I decided not to tax my car, there is a pretty high chance that even with low mileage I'd get spotted driving round sooner or later. But, if I didn't tax my horses, there's virtually no chance anybody would notice, even with a good system in place. And even if I got the equine equivalent of a producer, unlike with a car with a chassis number it would be easy to just use a fake.
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Let me deal with this point first before tackling the concept.

Technology could make it work - after all, the reason you stand more chance of being caught for no Road Fund Licence is the amount of automatic numberplate recognitions systems already fired up - let alone what will be possible in a few years.

At present, satelite technology requires quite large pieces of kit to make everything work - the smallest sender is creditcard size and most of that is battery - the normal rule is - the bigger the satelite, the smaller the senders need to be and greater the accuracy. What's more - all this kit is getting less and less expensive as all the development has been paid for by the military and as they sell off their older kit - it's put to other uses. I'm sure that it will be quite possible to read the chip that's regularly injected into animals quite soon - if there's a will!

I think it's a well known fact that the RSPCA puts down more animals than the criminals in the news - it's very easy to excuse them but I'm unsure of the morals. I find it passing strange when people give them millions to rescue and look after animals but is little more than an euthanasia programme.

However, overcrowding is a big concern and everyone involved in breeding, selling and keeping all animals should be more responsible. I looked after my daughter's ponies till they turned their toes up - in fact I've never so much as sold any animal I've owned on - bit of a control freak I suppose but I do get very attached ( I even found myself worrying about my tortoise a few weeks ago as it was so warm!) My own super mare lived a long life, gave me infinite pleasure and then died in my arms in less than five minutes and thus taking the possible worst decision of my life out of my hands.
 
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basically my view;


breeders need to stop breeding crap (like churning them out...)



owners need to mann the ****** up and take responsibility for their horses... when they are old/ill etc - they NEED to pts and stop passing them on to otheres *no matter how "good" the home is*

the crap that does get bred through the sale - people need to stop "rescuing" them from the meat man



rant over..... the abve three points held would make a MASSIVE difference already.
 
riding_high said:
there seems to be alot of companion horses/ponies in rescue places. ponies are most of the time easier to keep as a companion so maybe the horses that are ONLY for companions should be pts and any ponies that have big problems like on going lami where it would need to be stabled alot of the time, most of them wouldn't be of use as a companion. i know that probably sounds harsh and i don't mean it to come across like that.
i dont' think age should be taken into account though unless they have obvious problems where it would cost alot of money in medication.
horses/ponies with behavioural issues that even the rescue centre can't solve should be pts.
alot of owners can't afford to pts, we know the hunt will do it a bit cheaper but it's still alot of money (a friend was quoted £250 by hunt) also alot of people don't like the idea of the hunt doing the job so maybe rescue places could come to some kind of arrangement with vets that if they get called upon to take a horse in that they would recommend pts they could offer a reduced rate for the owners so the owner is still making the decision? i'm not sure how that would work but it could be an option.
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Ok I'll put my tin hat on and say if you can't afford £250 to PTS you should never have got a horse in the first place if you can't afford to PTS how are affording to vaccinate feed and care for the horses feet properly .
If your finances are that tight the first thing you should always do is put aside enough money to PTS.
No one needs to have a horse common sense requires that you consider what happens if disaster occurs if you can't afford to PTS what would you do if the horse colics or got a nasty mud fever even a nasty boult of mud fever can cost£250.
Also I would NEVER take a pony as a companion they get two fat a horse is a much easier type of companion for my type of horse it could be managed like my horse and graze with my horse horses can make great companions for horses ,ponies can be fence destroying pains in butt that need restricted grazing not a great companion for say a TB.
 
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I think the horse sancturies are not full of horses that have belong to people trying to get them admitted due to lack of money but are from people who have their horses removed from them and they are often multiple horse owners.

Perhaps a liscensing scheme for anyone wanting to own more than say 5 horses. If the equine database was not being stopped this could be used a one way to indentify multiple horse owners and then someone could go and do a routine check on them once a year to make sure everything was ok. This would mean all the breeders and hopefully most dealers etc would be incorporated. They would also get a certificate of good standing every year and this could mean that people buying from these people could ask to see this certificate too.

The cost of keeping a horse is going up, there is a lack of basic cheap yards that might suitable for a retired horse that does not need a school, good hacking etc, and could be quite happy living out with appropriate shelter. I also think that the amount of time people have to spend working and traveling to work has decreased the amount of spare time people have to look after horses. I also think that there has been a degree of climate change meaning that you land is not able to support the same amount of horses perhaps as before and also hay costs rising too. I think the recession has meant that a lot more people are struggling especially perhaps those that did not save during the boom years. The cost of land and housing both to buy and rent has gone up much more than most people's wages making it harder to make ends meet now and I think it will only get worse.
 
SO1, you forget about the ignorant people that buy a horse because they can afford it but haven't the first clue how to look after it or what its needs are. They are the worst offenders because they couldn't be bothered to learn anything first but expect others to pick up the pieces and if that includes dumping it because it's gone out of fashion, they'll do that too, they don't appreciate a horse is a living breathing animal that needs some degree of care.
 
I've come back in to say that I think the whole - horse for meat issue - would be improved if it was made more wholesome ( if that's possible!) at the moment the entire industry is run by people that look as if they've escaped from an east European prison camp with the majority operating on the fringes of legallity. However; what "nice person" would want this job?

I'm not squeamish about shooting an animal and cutting it up - but this should be done humanely and above board. Transport of live animals would be the major concern.
 
Maesfen said:
SO1, you forget about the ignorant people that buy a horse because they can afford it but haven't the first clue how to look after it or what its needs are. They are the worst offenders because they couldn't be bothered to learn anything first but expect others to pick up the pieces and if that includes dumping it because it's gone out of fashion, they'll do that too, they don't appreciate a horse is a living breathing animal that needs some degree of care.
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You are right and it's difficult to legislate for stupid .
 
As I've just posted on another very similar thread.

We breed a few pigs at home for meat, nothing massive just 2 litters a year, they are very social and clever animals - certainly quicker at working out the plastic treat ball than any of my horses !
Handled calmly and sensitively I have no problem with any animal travelling a short distance to a slaughter house - we take the pigs and I'm happy with how they are treated, we don't leave until they are gone (usually minutes after unloading)
I really can't understand why people think horses should be treated differently - all animals should be treated with respect and dignity.

I personally think I'd be happier with all the unwanted abandoned ponies ending up as burgers, rather than the alternative which could be years of suffering, why shouldn't they be put to some kind of use - if people agree PTS is kinder than complete lack of care which would you prefer the horrible pyre type pictures we saw with cattle in the BSE crisis?

We are living in very difficult times and a much as it would be ideal for all ponies to be in loving caring homes, there aren't enought of these to go around. So some sensible practical alternative has to be found. I'd rather face it up front than wait until they are suffering - just my POV.
 
1stclass. I wrote a long thing but was wiped so here's the short version.

1. There are far smaller tags out there than you say. However they are very expensive (thousands of pounds per tag) and have a battery life of days or weeks of lucky. These are currently used by government researchers and military researchers in small scale. A better option would be localised acoustic tags which are hundreds and don't cost per transmission... However a 5mm dia tag (much bigger than a dst) will still only last week's currently. You'd have a 9mm dia (pretty chunky) to last circa 10years. Then you'd still have to pay for someone to analyse the data.

2. Current dst tags used are one way communication, so aside from having to replace all the tags, to add two way you need to decide on a service. Already Argos has shown how one can be phased out quickly, then you'd have a lot of useless tags out there.

3. The price will never drop a substantial amount as the cost is in the transmission not the tag itself. To pay per transmission is extortionate and to pay monthly would be capped. Service charges are going up not down. A car tax amount per horse wouldnt cover one month of regular transmission.

4. How on earth would this method work... A car has a number plate scanned and says taxed or not. A tag will be scanned... If you've tagged. Satellites aren't going to pick up the information of someone not tagged.
 
Sorry just to address another point... Paid for by the military?! I can assure you that government research pay far more towards it and that's after production if you have a product worthy of selling. The other big buyer is the oil and gas industry.
 
Even if we find an easy cheap way to tag/chip all horses in a cheap & easily read manner, I still doubt it would work. Most horses spend the majority of their lives in reasonably private surroundings. Using my car example, if its not taxed its out on public roads & left parked in public places, & even in the driveway over night it doesn't move round, so whether there or on the roadside its very easy in theory for anpr to drive past & establish whether its taxed or not. With horses you'd have to catch them out hacking really, or be constantly going round checking every field & outbuilding. Even at shows & comps, while it might be easy to work at top level, local shows & lower level affiliated would need to allow for the cost of checking every entrant. So I think they'd just end up closing due to lack of entrants. And tbh, most of the horses that are left dumped or end up with charities don't go out to shows or regular hacking, or are kept on big busy yards, so it really would be a case of going searching round secluded fields & outbuildings. And the cost of actually doing that would mean the tax would need to be massive.
Good point maesfen, I'd also add there are plenty of people who can afford to keep a horse in a cheap field or very cheap diy but lack the experience to do so & the finances to pay for anything more.
 
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