Grackle Nosebands!!

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ecrozier

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Hello!
Sorry, one more question! After our supercharged XC round, I was chatting to a few people about bits etc. I've always been reluctant to put anything stonger in his mouth as he does have a soft mouth, he just gets on such a mission when you do a whole XC course. So I was advised to try a grackle noseband on him rather than a stronger bit (although there were plenty of people saying try a gag....)
Anyway, got one now, so just thought I would double check how they should be fitted, as never had one before? Should the higher strap be up at the base of his cheekbone? And the bottom one for like a drop/flash strap?
Any advice appreciated!
Thanks
Emma
 
A grackle is ideal for a horse that crosses the jaw to evade or who opens their mouth, but you want to prevent the airway being blocked by using a flash.

However you need to question whether you are unnecessarily strapping up your hrose to avoid changing bits.

If you notice most top riders have different bits for show jumping, cross country and dressage. You really don't want to be hauling at all.
 
He was already ridden in a flash as he does open his mouth to evade the bit.
Could change him to a gag of some sort, but he is fussy in his mouth and drops the bit easily. Pretty sure he would be very unhappy in any kind of pelham!
Hasten to add, didn't come up with this idea on my own, it was originally suggested by a BHSI who is well respected as an XC instructor particularly.
 
I'd be surprised if a grackle makes a significant difference if he is hard to stop in a flash. Worth trying to borrow one to see.

If head is down and heavy - then something like a tom thumb or true runing gag may help.

If head up then you'd better better with a pelham or false gag (Bubble bits & american gags)

Variations of bits can really help - for example if you don't think he wold like a pelham you could try a flexible rubber version with an elastic curb, which is a very mild bit.

In all cases I don't like a single joint, so would suggest something with 2 joints if you want a broken bit.
 
Head up definately. He was in a dutch gag when I bought him, but that used to pinch his lips so took him out of that. Plus he doesn't nee it 90% of the time!
He is currently in a KK Ultra snaffle (double joint, loose rings) which is fine hacking/SJ/sponsored rides. Might look into the pelham idea, but have borrowed a grackle to try first, so just need to check how to fit one and then will see how it goes. If its not any better, I'll try a different bit. Probably one of the KK universal ones as he is happy with the KK snaffle in his mouth, seems to like the action of that.
Then of course I'll have the usual problem of his cheekpieces being too long! Honestly, my horse has such an awkward sized head....
 
Well there are lots of lozenge bits now available, that work in the same method as the KK

One advantage of the lozenge is that it doesn't squish the lips in the same way as a single joint, so less likely to make a horse sore.

If only mild braking problemss you could consider a wilkie (beval) bit too.

Worth noting that we make a lozenge universal at less than half the price of a sprenger!!
 
Did he go well XC in the Dutch gag other than the pinching? The good thing about such bits is one can ride with 2 reins and only have the "extra power" when you need it. There are lots of similar bits these days with rings/hooks and more mouthpieces than you can shake a stick at so you should be able to find something to suit. Btw, I've often found Dutch gags need some sort of bit guard to protect the horse's mouth - pinching seems a common problem with them.

Make sure you really try out the pelham throroughly and remember there are lots of different mouthpiece/curb chain/strap options. I had one horse who was too strong in a snaffle, SJed very well in a pelham but would not jump at all in it XC.

Getting unridably strong XC is one of the few situations where a bit change is likely necessary. Schooling is very useful - and should obviously be done - but the excitement of the situation can overwhelm some horses especially when that way of going becomes a habit. And the necessity of having really sharp control XC can often mean you simply need a more specific tool for the job. My PERSONAL experience is it's best to save such firepower only for times when you really need it, rather than using it all the time, thereby keeping its effectiveness when it counts.

The noseband might help your case - certainly worth a try - but if you're already having trouble in a flash it's unlikely to be a clear improvement. One thing you MIGHT try (although your situation doesn't sound like it) is no noseband. The horse who hated the pelham always went best without one (and no, one put on loosely didn't have the same result).
 
Where would I go online to find your 1/2 price lozenge universal Cotswolds SJ? Would like to have a look at least, may well be back to buy one!!
Cruiser, never took him XC in the gag. Generally not the biggest fan of them though so very unlikely to put him back in one of those.
Done lots and lots of schooling with him, problem is that schooling he is fine in the snaffle, even in a group etc. He is still forward going but never trouble to stop. It is literally ONLY when we are doing a XC course, the atmosphere just gets to him, I'm probably riding differently to be fair, and he just sems to get cumulatively faster and faster through the course.
Re keeping the extra strength in the bit for just when really needed, think that will definately be what I would do, however obviously would need to let him try it first - would you suggest I use it for XC schooling or a sponsored ride or something first? I don't think he is likely to object violently as he is ridden a lot in his KK lozenge snaffle, so until I apply brakes, won't feel any different! Think I would try using 2 sets of reins as well, so I could only apply the extra action when absolutley necessary.
Re-reading posts above - need some kind of noseband to keep his jaw straight/closed....is a grackle better than a flash for SJ/XC in terms of keeping the airway free?
 
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A grackle definitely leaves the airway clearer than a flash, which is why makes me laugh when you see an eventer using a flash and a nasal strip.....

In theory if you find the perfect bit you shouldn't need to close the mouth (if you read the myler website, they are very much pro this). However to be fair only found that on one of my horses, whereas the other one will open his mouth if he wants to ignore me (although is in a nathe!)
 
Yeah, think my lad will still need his mouth kept shut, he's a little sod for making silly faces and chewing his bit etc anyway. Will try this grackle, might get one anyway to use SJ/XC now as got 2 bridles finally so I don't have to keep changing bits/fittings etc. So could leave the flash/rubber snaffle on his 'flatwork' bridle, and keep a grackle/KK snaffle on his 'jumping/hacking' bridle, with the universal and extra set of reins for XC.
Flatwork schooled in a straight bar flexible rubber snaffle, and he chews that like MAD. So irritating, but he goes better in it than anything else as he drops the contact and backs off anything else when flatwork schooling.
Anyway, thanks for all advice...off to work out how much this is all going to cost me now!!!
 
Um, no offence but are you absolutely sure his mouth/neck/back is okay? I know some horses "just have" mouth faults (the chewing etc.) as habits but usually they are a sign of tension. It has been my experience horses that express stress that way often have ridability issues when they get excited and strapping the mouth shut, while it can address the issue in the short term, doesn't do much to lessen stress.

I'm sorry, I know that's not what you asked and I'm sure it's an out of line comment but I've had a fair bit of experience with horses who had mouth faults along with other more serious/dangerous/obvious issues and I've usually found the two to be connected. And you can't assume a horse will refuse to work when it's uncomfortable because that's now how horses operate - many actually get stronger/more excited. But then again, just me thinking out loud.
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If he happily show jumps in a KK snaffle, unlikely that there is a problem!!

Cross country is supposed to be exciting for the horse, so therefore would expect that you would need a stronger bit, so that you can use gentle aids rather than hauling and sawing on a simple snaffle!

I think you would beover optimistic to expect your horse to do all disciplines in the same bit.
 
Cruiser, yes, I've had him 4 years, always had back/mouth etc checked regularly by saddler/physio/dentist/vet as appropriate! I'm sure one of my instructors (an ex-international SJer and a listed dressage judge, as wll as the various instructors I have as part of RC teams) would have pointed it out if they thought he had any issues in these areas.

I don't as Cotswolds SJ pointed out, have any rideability 'problem' with him at all! He is sound and very happy, SJs nicely in a snaffle, hacks/flatwork in a flexi mouth rubber straight bar - as soft a bit as I can get! He only ever chews the rubber bit, partly because it is thicker. He also chews his leadrope when left tied up, and will chew sleeves/jumpers etc if you let him. He doesn't crib, or chew his rugs, it is just a habit, and attention seeking!

He doesn't have any rideability issues at all, even XC is fine really, he just gets a bit onward bound when completing a course, and I was just looking for opinions on what would be best to do. I'm happy enough to leave as is, but thought it would be nicer not to have to haul at him when, in a sitauation like I had on Sunday, he can see the competitor before us in the distance and decides to return to his racing heritage!

Sorry if I sound a bit defensive, I am just very devoted to my horse who is my horse of a lifetime without a doubt, and was only looking for opinions on how to be nicer to him really, hence why I thought a different noseband might be better than a stronger bit!
 
I use a grackle on my horse and found it helped lighten him alot, and has helped his stroppy/strongness on occasions!! Definitely worth trying, really rate them.
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This is mine, it is a high ring one. The one without the ring at the side it should be below the chek bone if that makes sense?! Much prefer the mexican/high ring design personally!
 
The one I've borrowed is a mexican/high ring one. Looking at the photo, is the rig sat on his cheekbone then? Bit difficult to see and I want to get it right.
Thanks!~
 
TBH the one my horse has on its a bit low, it should be sat above his cheek bone with the top strap above the bone. Hope that makes sense!
 
Hmm, so underneath his jaw it would sit against the edge of the curved edge of his cheekbone? With the rig slightly higher than that? Is that what you menan?
Thanks
Emma
 
Sorry I offended you - certainly not my intention. Obviously your horse has a habit, as you say, which doesn't affect him performance-wise at all.

I am always mindful - perhaps too much so - that internet boards are public and that many people reading lack the experience and support system you obviously have put in place for yourself. So they read something without understanding context and say, "Well, that sounds like my horse so I'll do X too" when in fact their horse has a completely different issue that only LOOKS similar.

Apologies.
 
Sorry if I sounded too defensive Cruiser, you are TOTALLY right of course, and I agree that some people could read this post and think that everyone is responding to my query about my horse being strong sometimes by saying 'stick him in a gag and a grackle' when that is obviously not the solution in many cases, especially if there might be a health problem behind a horse being strong!
Fortunately with my boy, chewing is just a habit, he doesn't chew metal bits, just the rubber one, but does sometimes open his mouth to avoid the bit, hence the grackle, and he is a racing bred arab, and likes to think that if he can see a horse in front, he sholud charge off to catch them! I can always stop him, but would rather it was easier than it sometimes is accross country, like Sunday when we caught the rider in front!
But would obviously suggest to all reading that back/teeth problems should be checked first and schooling always a better solution than stronger bits....sadly with my lad schooling doesn't help as the problem only happend when competing!!
 
Re fitting your grackle. With the high ring/mexican one, the ring should be midway between the start of the cheek bone and the eye. The standard grackle sits just under the cheekbone, pretty much the same as a flash. I think the high ring one is a much more effective and kinder noseband than a flash. It doesn't sqush the inner fleshy cheek onto the teeth and as it's higher won't interfere with breathing.

Bitwise, I use one of the KK Ultra dynamic ones. It's thinner than a normal KK and it's curved. I also use a grackle. Mine sits behind anything stronger but can also get a tad enthusiastic. This combination gived me control but he still takes a good contact and he doesn't resist at all. I don't have the noseband done up tightly either, just enough that it's there if it needs to be. I have tried mine in a KK vienna and it was too strong, even with 2 reins.
 
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