Grand National and Racing Yards

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Fair point Kaylum, I fully accept your point.



Racing is a very 'closed' world, they look after their own, whether the training yard, it's staff, assisting services or whatever, they will close rank and protect each other; the voices of two little old folk objecting to their internal practice wasn't going to change what they do, so we got out, stopped fuelling the fire as it were.


Have a great weekend Kaylum.

Not sure what you noticed down the line, and instinct is often right in these matters, but may also be wrong.
If you did not ask or question the practices, you have weakened your "case".
There is no reason to assume that your concerns would be ignored.
One has to assume that your horse was just replaced by another, so really nothing has changed.

 

[Him_Indoors]

It is closed world, and there is a lot of camaraderie, which makes it a great industry to work in.
Most of the staff are animal lovers. There may be exceptions but it is easy to identify such people and it is up to the trainer to sack any bad staff. Anyone who works in racing and takes horses to the races has a record of employment retained by the BHA, so if they apply for a job with another trainer, it is easy to trace their employment history.
Racehorse are are not routinely whipped, starved or abused, and not to belittle what you have done, removing one horse from a bad place without doing anything for the others..... well that's not a particularly good strategy.

MrsD, I agree with what you are saying and of course it probably wasn't good strategy to remove just our horse, but then as I've mentioned before somewhere, we are a single couple who wouldn't or couldn't dream of battling against such closed ranks. Perhaps one day someone will lift the lid on what goes on in SOME racing yards, and on that day, if I'm not six feet under, I will raise my hat to them.

 

[littleshetland]

OP, you are unusual in the fact that you actually took an interest in the animal that you are lucky enough to own, and cared enough to ensure that he enjoys a good life. Good on you.

I spent a lot of time at racecourses when younger, and consequently a lot of time with racehorse owners - as I said in my previous post, for most owners its primarily about kudos, a grand day out and GAMBLING. Horse welfare has very little to do with in their world. They have not the time nor the inclination to find out what might happen to their horse once they have lost interest in it and moved on to the next one.

Same apples to the greyhound racing industry.

 

[Him_Indoors]

As I'm now fairly sure that this is all you're after, I'll be bowing out.

Have a good weekend Patterdale.
If you knew me you'd know I'm not about argument, honest.
Thanks for your input.

 

[nervous nelly]

If the case of abuse was as bad as you are making it out to be then I presume it was reported to the relevant authorities. If so the case will no doubt still be under investigation and it should not be being brought up on an open forum, If not then you are either a.Making up or at least exsagurating the truth or b. just as bad as those accused! (Please excuse my dreadful spelling I am dyslexic)

 

[WelshD]

So you got your own horse out and left the others in that situation without taking any action.

Nice.

If the welfare standards were so poor and you have evidence of the problems then why not raise that with someone? Press? Or there must be a governing body in racing surely?

We dont know your definition of standards either, it could be that you feel your horse needed a carrot, a kiss on the nose and be dressed in his jim jams for bed for example

If you want bleeding hearts who will moan and wail with you without you having to back up anything then may i point you in the direction of the 'Chit Chat and Tack' group or the likewise suitably outraged people on the 'Equine Rant' group on facebook who will take your comments and run with them

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

There are an awful lot of racehorse owners, who , believe me, know nothing about horses. They pay the bills, enjoy a nice day out at the races and , above all else, enjoy gambling. They tend to be moneyed individuals, business men and syndicates. They place their trust absolutely in the trainer because they have no knowledge of horses.
And yes - I agree - terrible times potentially await ALL equines, but that is a different debate. This thread is about racing and racehorse welfare.

Of course owners [new and old] rely on the trainer to look after the horse, but most will find when they visit the yard that the horses are well fed, well bedded, happy staff and happy horses. For most it is a hobby, a social activity for the rich.
Business men are used to assessing other businesses and people at all levels, they can see if corners are being cut in a way that compromises welfare. Such compromises will reduce the chances of winning.
If they think they are going to get a free source of information to feed a gambling habit they will soon be put right. Only the more experienced owner can take this route, and they still need to buy horses capable of winning a race, which is hard enough.
A few trainers gamble, but many more have had their fingers burned, it is enough of a gamble trying to balance the books.

 

[Him_Indoors]

If the case of abuse was as bad as you are making it out to be then I presume it was reported to the relevant authorities. If so the case will no doubt still be under investigation and it should not be being brought up on an open forum, If not then you are either a.Making up or at least exsagurating the truth or b. just as bad as those accused! (Please excuse my dreadful spelling I am dyslexic)

Kelsey, Tom, your presumption, ashamedly from our part, is wrong. I guess that's why I'm wanting to release feelings here. I am however, not making this up, probably am over emphasising for effect, but then why shouldn't I, this is important to us.
Enjoy the day both.

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Unfortunately there will be showjumping/dressage yards who nelly the use of barbaric treatment. I really don't think it's limited to racing. I'm sure there are ALOT of very well cared for horses at proffesional yards also. I'll treatment of animals should be punished as it would in any case regardless of the type of yard.

 

[littleshetland]

Of course owners [new and old] rely on the trainer to look after the horse, but most will find when they visit the yard that the horses are well fed, well bedded, happy staff and happy horses. For most it is a hobby, a social activity for the rich.
Business men are used to assessing other businesses and people at all levels, they can see if corners are being cut in a way that compromises welfare. Such compromises will reduce the chances of winning.
If they think they are going to get a free source of information to feed a gambling habit they will soon be put right. Only the more experienced owner can take this route, and they still need to buy horses capable of winning a race, which is hard enough.
A few trainers gamble, but many more have had their fingers burned, it is enough of a gamble trying to balance the books.

Most of the owners and businessmen wouldn't know a cut corner (in terms of animal welfare) if it leapt up and slapped them on the face. They trust completely the word of the trainer - the animals themselves are of no concern to them. They just want their horse to show up on race day, looking shiny and fit. How that is achieved by the trainer is a complete mystery to them. It is about kudos. And it is the nature of gamblers to keep gambling, wether they win or lose.

 

[Him_Indoors]

So you got your own horse out and left the others in that situation without taking any action.

Nice.

If the welfare standards were so poor and you have evidence of the problems then why not raise that with someone? Press? Or there must be a governing body in racing surely?

We dont know your definition of standards either, it could be that you feel your horse needed a carrot, a kiss on the nose and be dressed in his jim jams for bed for example

If you want bleeding hearts who will moan and wail with you without you having to back up anything then may i point you in the direction of the 'Chit Chat and Tack' group or the likewise suitably outraged people on the 'Equine Rant' group on facebook who will take your comments and run with them

Thanks, love the thought of a horse in jim jams, lol.
Enjoy the National today.

 

[Orangehorse]

It is the ultimate responsibility of the owner to ensure his horse is placed properly, the trainer may advise but if the owner insists on selling the horse at any time, there is nothing the trainer or anyone else can do.
There are not enough good homes for racehorses, yet you will see plenty of people protesting if they are shot, especially if the animals are sound.
It is not only racehorses that are shunted from pillar to post to make a few £££, it happens to all horses.

PS I won't be watching the GN as I hate to see horses falling. In my opinion there are too many horses in the race and they go too fast in to the first fence. The ground should be fairly dead, so that will slow them down a bit.

There was a long article in the most recent BHS magazine about what has been done to the Grand National, including moving the start away from the large crowds. It was interesting, and I don't think that they can do any more. It is still a race that every jockey wants to win as the ultimate test.

Racehorses are doing a job. A horse's life is dangerous, as I have said before. Big heavy horse + galloping + spindly legs = many dangers of injury and death. In the past week one poor owner on this DG lost her horse as he was playing in the field.

If you are going to have a horse - especially a racehorse - you must accept that there is quite a high chance of injury or death (0.4% of runners according to the Jocky Club, if I recall). But in every race there is a winner, a second and a third whose connections all are very pleased and win money.

There may be bad yards, but not many as most trainers are desperate to win and spend a lot of time trying to think how to improve their horses' chances and look into how best to look after them. Any bad practices should be reported to authorities. I have heard from various people going round to give physio/other care that they can often notice different atmospheres at different yards, so I accept that some places will be better than others, and some racehorses will be unsuccessful in one yard and thrive in a different one.

I don't like to see horses falling - who does? - but I probably will watch it.

 

[Merrymoles]

I won't lose sleep over the National - classy horses doing what they are bred for and, god forbid, if injured are dealt with quickly and humanely.

I would lose sleep however knowing that I had walked away from a yard full of badly-treated horses and not done anything about it. I would lie awake worrying whether other horses on the yard were suffering in the way I thought mine had and j wouldn't be able to live with myself.

 

[Him_Indoors]

Have a quick look at this folks ......

http://blog.peta.org.uk/2014/04/the-grand-national-8-things-they-dont-tell-you-about-horse-racing/

 

[Patterdale]

Oh ffs.....

PETA are a group of extremists who believe that keeping a dog as a pet and even RIDING a horse is cruel.
They are well known for making their 'facts' up as they go along to suit their own ends, and have absolutely no credibility in the animal welfare movement.

So no, I won't be reading any of their emotive, made up crap.

 

[justabob]

I love racing, it is my passion and I also have an ex racehorse. I am also aware that not every yard has an ethical approach towards the welfare of its horses, some of these unethical training practices have come to the public attention recently and include some of the big highly succesful yards. Sadly if we were to delve deeply into any equestrian sport, be it endurance, dressage, show jumping and even showing, we will find welfare issues.

Having said that, there are mostly good highly respected trainers in this country and Ireland, however may I suggest OP that you read "Winners Lowlife & Losers by Tony Hogben. A true story about a small breeder owner in Australia. Thank god I live in this country.

May I ask what you are doing with your horse now OP?

 

[littleshetland]

OP I understand completely where you're coming from on this. If you can help one horse (in this case -your own) then thats a good job. Unfortunately acting as one individual against a tidal wave the size of the racing industry is very much an up hill struggle. You did what YOU could physically manage as an individual. I guess it would have been nice to have taken the rest of the yard with you - but you couldn't. You did what you could.

I would love to go out there and rescue every abused horse/dog/cat/human etc etc, but I can't. We do what we can in our own small way. Good luck to you.

 

[Merrymoles]

OP now offline - hopefully ringing someone about the bad yard.

A friend's horse was PTS yesterday after being kicked in the field so I guess I'd better go and get the horses in just in case. Or I could just keep things in proportion ...

 

[justabob]

Oh ffs.....

PETA are a group of extremists who believe that keeping a dog as a pet and even RIDING a horse is cruel.
They are well known for making their 'facts' up as they go along to suit their own ends, and have absolutely no credibility in the animal welfare movement.

So no, I won't be reading any of their emotive, made up crap.

This completely.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I agree with you re the Grand National. It's a nasty spectacle with a shameful record of injuries and fatalities. Not my idea of sport.
I do love flat racing and know a couple of trainers who are passionate about their horses. One of whom lived next door to me and used to keep a few acres at home to rehab some of his race horses before they went on to a new life.

I think you have to specifically target your objections to racing and yards in order to get things changed.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Oh ffs.....

PETA are a group of extremists who believe that keeping a dog as a pet and even RIDING a horse is cruel.
They are well known for making their 'facts' up as they go along to suit their own ends, and have absolutely no credibility in the animal welfare movement.

So no, I won't be reading any of their emotive, made up crap.

Not a fan of PETA but I read it to keep an open mind. Crikey, I even read the junk in the telegraph, so PETA is a pussycat in comparison.

They make some reasonable points but let themselves down by bias and factually incorrect statements. Its a shame because there are enough real facts to make their case if they were less sensational.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Thanks, love the thought of a horse in jim jams, lol.
Enjoy the National today.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=o...omers-chomping-bit-horse-onesies.html;634;464

 

[amandap]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=o...omers-chomping-bit-horse-onesies.html;634;464

Do not set me off! Racing threads are bad for my mood.

Good luck with your horse op.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I love racing, it is my passion and I also have an ex racehorse. I am also aware that not every yard has an ethical approach towards the welfare of its horses, some of these unethical training practices have come to the public attention recently and include some of the big highly succesful yards. Sadly if we were to delve deeply into any equestrian sport, be it endurance, dressage, show jumping and even showing, we will find welfare issues.

The thing is that those banned and illegal practices you mention would not be visible to anyone, only those involved and those who investigated them would know, until they are in the public domain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ho...g-continues-to-work-in-his-Dubai-stables.html

 

[The wife]

Mike, thanks for replying.
I do have evidence to back up my thoughts and opinions, photos dates times etc, but I wouldn't even attempt to publish these on this forum.
If my opinions come across as a rant, then honestly I think you have paid me a massive complement as I still feel very bitter towards the trainer and his barbaric daily working methods. Have a great weekend.

So this is a rant/issue with one particular trainer in question. With all due respect you would be a swell not to tar all trainers with the same brush. I find it quite sad really that racing has such a bad reputation from people who have 'heard this and heard that' and yet know jack about the racing industry really. I have found that most (not all) that disagree with jump racing actually know nothing and desperately un-educated about the way these amazing creatures are treated and have been reading too much of the dire PETA cyber leaflet that is doing it's rounds at the moment. Funniest thing I read on that was that horse were pumped full of painkillers... I can only assume it is so ignorant that it didn't take into account dope testing etc.

i've worked in racing and so have many others on this forum. These animals are treated better than we treat other humans and probably 90% of the equine population. I welcome opinions that differ to mine as it creates a bit of a debate but only if one sticks to educated and well informed facts rather than assumptions upon the whole industry.

Same thread, different year, I promise myself every year I'm not going to get into a racing debate and alas, I just cannot help it

 

[EffyCorsten]

I've not been on a racing yard and haven't had much to do with racing purely because I don't race or work with racers BUT I just have to say YES it is about money BUT that goes hand in hand with keeping the horses to the highest level of care because they ARE MONEY!

Of course it would be nice for more yards to give more turn out etc. but it's the same with all equestrian sport. the risk of injury out weighs the mental need for turn out sadly.

I agree with what most people have said, of course some yards might be poor with their treatment of the horses but mostly the staff are working long hours, for not a great deal but the passion.

 

[littleshetland]

Yes, its a shame that certain action groups do somewhat 'shoot themselves in the foot' by getting certain facts wrong or muddled (of course horses are dope tested...) but I think ultimately their motives are good.

I find it interesting that stout supporters of the racing industry are those that enjoy or have enjoyed the cosy, cliquey bonhomie that working on these yards rewards you with. Yes, of course the yard you worked on was great, of course the horses you cared for wanted for nothing, of course you and your colleagues worked long hours for little pay because you love these creatures and you care.......... could someone please tell me what happens to vast majority of horses (whose careers are over by the time they're 4 - 5 years old) who are simply not up to the job and are now worthless? The owners have lost interest and moved onto another one - the trainer wants rid because the horse is costing him money ......so what happens next? I know about the very small percentage that are re-homed and re-trained - lucky them - but what about the thousands that don't make the grade?

Where on earth do they end up? If they're all pts - well I suppose thats a mercy, if not -what?

 

[Fun Times]

Most of the owners and businessmen wouldn't know a cut corner (in terms of animal welfare) if it leapt up and slapped them on the face. They trust completely the word of the trainer - the animals themselves are of no concern to them. They just want their horse to show up on race day, looking shiny and fit. How that is achieved by the trainer is a complete mystery to them. It is about kudos. And it is the nature of gamblers to keep gambling, wether they win or lose.

I agree with this. I work for an international lawyer - amazing business man, fantastically clever. Would barely be able to tell a dead horse from a living one though. Relying on such persons to identify poor welfare standards is a no go. They have had a hard week at work and just want to see their horse looking smart and shiny on the track.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Yes, its a shame that certain action groups do somewhat 'shoot themselves in the foot' by getting certain facts wrong or muddled (of course horses are dope tested...) but I think ultimately their motives are good.

I find it interesting that stout supporters of the racing industry are those that enjoy or have enjoyed the cosy, cliquey bonhomie that working on these yards rewards you with. Yes, of course the yard you worked on was great, of course the horses you cared for wanted for nothing, of course you and your colleagues worked long hours for little pay because you love these creatures and you care.......... could someone please tell me what happens to vast majority of horses (whose careers are over by the time they're 4 - 5 years old) who are simply not up to the job and are now worthless? The owners have lost interest and moved onto another one - the trainer wants rid because the horse is costing him money ......so what happens next? I know about the very small percentage that are re-homed and re-trained - lucky them - but what about the thousands that don't make the grade?

Where on earth do they end up? If they're all pts - well I suppose thats a mercy, if not -what?

I assume you are talking about flat horses, some of which go on to National Hunt. Some go to stud. Some are suitable as hacks, some are given to people to go hunting. Some go home and are turned out, maybe used as occasional hacks. Some go to rehab centres. Some are sold to knowledgeable homes, some are sold to the wrong homes. Some are in Riding Schools. Some in polo.
A few are shot, more likely if they are unsound, or may have a temperament not suited to amateur handling, one can never be sure. If they are sane and sound the chances are they will end up in a field somewhere, just like every other horse, to some extend they take their chance.
Owners do not have the option to "walk away", they are responsible for it until it passes in to new ownership. Trainers may suggest what to do, but it is up to the owner in the long run.
PS I am not sure why you seem to object to the stable staff enjoying their work, why else would they stay in a career with long and unsociable hours.
There are career opportunities for some, they are not all badly paid, remember that they did not spend four years at university to end up in a call centre with a massive student loan.
That option is probably still open to them if they want to leave racing. They are not all the type you see in so called "Jockey School"

 

[pip6]

Welfare of horses is frequently compromised when driven by money & the need to win. Look as the rolkur debate, group vii countries abusing endurance horses, training techniques in sj such as rapping, glass in boots etc. It doesn't mean all yards are bad, & it's good you acknowledge that. We are currently in discussion with a trainer about possibly buying one of their failures at only 4 years old. They have come across as very honest, caring people with only the horses interests driving their decision. To be frank we are very impressed with them. They are not a big name, but are very genuine.