Grand National Fatalities - World Horse Welfare comment

Over2You said:
Any animal owner who genuinely loves their charges would NEVER put them in such perilous situations!! You are the ones who are losing the plot if...
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Really??????? Never, ever, never?????

What about equine operations? Pretty perilous situation for horses, recovery from GA has a high mortality rate. Would you assume that those owners genuinely don't love their charges?

How about turning a laminitic prone horse out to grass with no muzzle etc, is that putting the horse in a perilous situation? Do the owners not love their horse? or are they just uneducated?

And another one...everytime a horse is sold on or changes hands you are putting it in a potentially perilous situation...unless you can see into the future. It could end up on that slaughter truck to europe.
 
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Over2You said:
Here we go again. Anybody who is anti-racing must be un-knowledgeable. Please enlighten me as to why you think it is okay to put into horses into such dangerous situations? Where are the justifications in killing twenty-seven horses over the course of just a month-and-a-half?

As for racing funding extremely cruel experimentation programmes (including vivisection). Take a look at this. If it were untrue, then Animal Aid would have been legally obliged to remove all mention of it. However, the information has been on the site for years!

What's disgusting is that you racing lot think your "sport" is wonderful. Despite it being glaringly obvious that about the only thing it's good for is killing animals!!

There was nothing "sickening" about my comments whatsoever. My analogies were spot on. Any animal owner who genuinely loves their charges would NEVER put them in such perilous situations!! You are the ones who are losing the plot if you think your "sport" should still have its place in the 21st century. It continues to kill an alarmingly high number of horses, but all you can do is defend it. You should be ashamed - very ashamed!!
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Animal aid is about as eccentric as your posts !
 
Everytime I release a horse onto the track I expect it to die. In fact I am very upset if the damned thing has the cheek to survive! I mean at the end of the day we will just get another one in to take it's place.

Yeah bloody right!!!!!

By the way there is 3 days racing at Perth this month - 25th, 26th & 27th! Followed up by Fife Point To Point on Saturday. Over2You please do come along and introduce yourself to me. I am sure we shall have a merry chat and I can point you in the direction of a few other who would be interested in your views.
 
sidsmum said:
But how can 27 deaths on British racecourses since March of this year be justified?
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Umm how can 2222 deaths in car accidents in the UK (2009 latest figures available) be justified? Perhaps we should ban car driving too, since there is a really forseeable risk of death and people take their kiddies out in the cars too, and the kiddies have no choice like the horses. So no more children in cars at the very least!......from today!

It is the demands of so called welfare organisations like RSPCA (thankfully not many listen to the loopier ones) to endlessly lower the fences, put gaps at the edge etc that have made the Grand National way more of a headlong sprint in the first circuit and way more dangerous. Synchronised for one I believe would be still with us if the racing authorities had not gone down the line of introducing 'escape' lanes at the side of fences under pressure from RSPCA et al and so would one a couple of years back who did exactly the same thing.

These people, I believe, should be far more ashamed than any of the horse lovers on this forum, since they mistake grandstanding politicking and stoking up the masses for knowledge and sober analysis of the fact that the GN needs to be a slower run race on softer ground with blinkin big fences that horses think twice about tackling if they are not a real GN type ie they refuse to jump them rather than trying and falling).

NB Ironic to have a username of a famous eventer when presumably you'd want to see that banned too......
 
sidsmum said:
But how can 27 deaths on British racecourses since March of this year be justified?
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How can 80,000 equines destined for the slaughter houses of europe, travelling in unaccetable conditions be justified?

It is tragic because none deserve to be in that situation and their owners should have been responsible enough to ensure they never ended up on that meat wagon. By passing them on they put them in the ultimate perilous situation! Garanteed death, having already suffered hours/ days and weeks of appauling abuse.

You are perfectly entitled to crusade against racing if that is where you think your efforts for change to equine welfare issues are best utilised. Others might believe that racing do a good enough job and there are bigger fish to fry.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
Umm how can 2222 deaths in car accidents in the UK (2009 latest figures available) be justified? Perhaps we should ban car driving too, since there is a really forseeable risk of death and people take their kiddies out in the cars too, and the kiddies have no choice like the horses. So no more children in cars at the very least!......from today!
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Deaths from day to day driving is a silly comparison to make. :confused:

lachlanandmarcus said:
NB Ironic to have a username of a famous eventer when presumably you'd want to see that banned too......
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Are you referring to my name or someone else?! That's the name of my horse! :D And no I wouldn't want to see eventing banned unless the percentages of deaths were similar to that of racing.

Dab said:
How can 80,000 equines destined for the slaughter houses of europe, travelling in unaccetable conditions be justified?
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They can't. :confused:

Dab said:
You are perfectly entitled to crusade against racing if that is where you think your efforts for change to equine welfare issues are best utilised. Others might believe that racing do a good enough job and there are bigger fish to fry.
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I'm not crusading against racing I simply don't like it and will say so - same as hunting.

What is wrong with clearing up our own back yard too? Something that is wrong no matter how little or big the wrong is still wrong. Why should it be ignored?
 
Deaths from day to day driving is a silly comparison to make.

No, not really that silly. An activity which has a known risk of death to living creatures who have no 'say' in whether they take part ie children carried in motor cars, but which we do anyway because the benefit overall outweighs the risk in the minds of those who look at it rationally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lachlanandmarcus
NB Ironic to have a username of a famous eventer when presumably you'd want to see that banned too......

Are you referring to my name or someone else?! That's the name of my horse!
Was referring there to Over2Yous contribution.....
 
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Over2You said:
Here we go again. Anybody who is anti-racing must be un-knowledgeable. Please enlighten me as to why you think it is okay to put into horses into such dangerous situations? Where are the justifications in killing twenty-seven horses over the course of just a month-and-a-half?

As for racing funding extremely cruel experimentation programmes (including vivisection). Take a look at this. If it were untrue, then Animal Aid would have been legally obliged to remove all mention of it. However, the information has been on the site for years!

What's disgusting is that you racing lot think your "sport" is wonderful. Despite it being glaringly obvious that about the only thing it's good for is killing animals!!

There was nothing "sickening" about my comments whatsoever. My analogies were spot on. Any animal owner who genuinely loves their charges would NEVER put them in such perilous situations!! You are the ones who are losing the plot if you think your "sport" should still have its place in the 21st century. It continues to kill an alarmingly high number of horses, but all you can do is defend it. You should be ashamed - very ashamed!!
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I assume you are an extremist with no experience of working in racing.
Welfare cases like Spindles Farm are causing unnecessary and illegal suffering of horses and ponies, these are the people who should be the target of your anger.
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lachlanandmarcus
NB Ironic to have a username of a famous eventer when presumably you'd want to see that banned too......

Are you referring to my name or someone else?! That's the name of my horse!
Was referring there to Over2Yous contribution.....
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I did wonder! My bad! :D

I do disagree about your comparison to driving, driving is not a sport and not 'for fun' it is a totally different scenario.
 
Dab said:
Who is saying they should be ignored? Most appear to agree that in terms of the GN, an unbiased review is required and then the appropriate actions taken.
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You are right in the majority people are saying that and I 'hope' that things will change for the better. Call me cynical I just can't help but think that when large amounts of money and prestige are involved change is hard.
 
But change to the GN has happened year in and year out. Some good - better cool down facilities and the like, and some that have not achieved as much as hoped. What makes you think they won't make changes this time?
Sadly for the other issue mentioned ie transport of horses to europe for slaughter hasn't changed even after a huge campaign in the last year :(
 
But horses are still dying so the changes have not had the desired effect. Because the GN is such a high profile race (if not the most high profile) then public pressure/coverage almost forces changes. But in my opinion because horses are still dying the changes are not good enough. Less runners would be a good start though.

ETA I'm not a big follower of racing and although I used to watch the GN as a kid it's not something I follow. It's more something that is on and makes my stomach knot up hoping that they all get round.

That is my experiance of the race - I don't claim to know much about it, I just don't like the results. :-/
 
Dab, I think we cross posted and sort of said the same thing from different sides there!

Yes, horse transport sadly isn't in the public eye enough. Not the general public eye anyhow. It's a terrible and prolonged way to end an equines life. :(
 
A bit of food for thought:

This years National was ran in a time of 9m5s. On Good to Soft ground. The first circuit was completed in 4mins36s.

Red Rum's 1st National was ran in a time of 9mins1s. On Firm ground. The first circuit was completed in 4mins40s.

So Red Rums first lap was 4 seconds slower than Neptunes but they finished the entire race 4 seconds faster. Over bigger, stiffer fences.
 
Please answer my question!! How can you justify almost thirty horses dying in under two months?? Do not reply with questions!!

For the record - I am against cruelty - full stop!! I am all for putting an end to live transport to Europe. It's a disgustingly vile practice that makes my blood boil!! I have signed numerous petitions, and donated to charities that campaign against it. Do not get me started on Spindles Farm!!

As for the comparisons to risky surgeries, and not letting laminitic horses/ponies graze, etc, etc. Those things are done to HELP the animals!! Racing horses to the point of them dripping with sweat, and struggling to catch breath does NOT help them!! It's a horrible thing to do to them!! Racing them at two-years-old is barbaric!! As is sending them hurtling over gargantuan obstacles (knowing there is a very good chance they'll suffer catastrophic injuries).

So, come on, why do you readily do those things to the horses you profess to love??
 
Over2you, you would seem to have fairly extremist views. I wonder how informed you are? Have you ever been to Lambourn open day and visited the horses, the stables, talked to the grooms, seen the care that goes into looking after these beautiful animals? Somehow I doubt it.
 
Over2You said:
Here we go again. Anybody who is anti-racing must be un-knowledgeable.
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But you so clearly are......

As said by another poster - have you actually spent time with trainers, lads & lasses, owners etc??

Have your views by all means, but at least make them informed views rather than the odd snippet of often inaccurate information picked up from the internet (plus your own rather narrow minded view of things).

Why not take some time to spend a month or even more going round the various yards and educating yourself on the goings on of the racing industry. You may still come out not liking racing, but at least you will be more informed rather than making some of the ridiculous sweeping statements that you do.
 
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Well said Amymay.

The Grand National is a day when all eyes focus on racing, it becomes the shop window for racing.

Perhaps lessons can be learnt, but one shouldn't condemn a huge industry on one race.
 
Over2You said:
For the record - I am against cruelty - full stop!!
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Yet by your own admission you are happy to confidently watch and possibly maybe even enjoy SJ. Where some rather cruel practices have been known to be employed to encourage the horses not to touch the poles. Such as over-tightening of boots, or putting a little something inside them.

Standards and double spring to mind but not necessarily in that order!
 
And another thing O2Y why do you never respond to people when they point out your inaccuracies (blood on the quarters of the winning horse in the GN)? Or to those who make a point of reassuring you about the lives of retired racehorses (my post to you about several ex-racers and their lives off the track)?

Is it because it only suits you to be so negative, or because you simply can't be arsed????
 
Dab said:
Yet by your own admission you are happy to confidently watch and possibly maybe even enjoy SJ. Where some rather cruel practices have been known to be employed to encourage the horses not to touch the poles. Such as over-tightening of boots, or putting a little something inside them.

Standards and double spring to mind but not necessarily in that order!
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Yep, can't have it both ways.

Also dressage - Rollkur.........
 
lachlanandmarcus said:
Synchronised for one I believe would be still with us if the racing authorities had not gone down the line of introducing 'escape' lanes at the side of fences under pressure from RSPCA et al and so would one a couple of years back who did exactly the same thing.
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I thought that in the video you could see Synchronised get up and jump the fences at the back of the field so escape lanes arent relevant?

I dont think that escape lanes can really be blamed for any of the four deaths in the last two years. According to Pete's fall came after a missed fence and maybe it was a bit harder to sort themselves out, especially as the loose horse that maybe caused On his own to fall was stopping them from spreading out more, but these things do happen. Looking further back, the three deaths between 2006 and 2008 were all caused by horses running loose, at least officially, and it was my understanding that the escape lanes would hopefully mean that the horses were less likely to jump the fences when loose.
 
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I am still waiting on you answering my questions. Where are the justifications in killing twenty-seven horses since March?? Why do you continue to do those horrific things to the horses you profess to love?? Answers please!!
 
Look, I’m no lover of the BHA, I think they’ve made a Horlicks of a few things recently, but they do keep good records and attached is a link to its injuries and fatalities page. I think approx. 14000 horses are in NH training and according to the BHA stats, approx. 4 in every 1000 suffer fatalities, which equates to approx. 56 horses a year. Clearly everyone would prefer that number to be no horses, but as a %age it works out at about 0.2% of all runners. there are others who break down in training, but proportionally probably less than SJers, dressage horses and eventers and certainly considerably less than the average leisure horse. I know those comparisons are a bit woolly because I don’t have any figures for other sports, but the one thing racing does very well is measure itself and publish its results so it is transparent.

At the moment I can’t find any details relating to 30 horses dying since March, so I would be interested to know where that figure came from, if O2Y could enlighten that would be helpful.

I don’t think anyone is happy for any horse to die in any sport, but we need to distinguish between cruelty and accidents. There is a very big difference.

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp
 
Quote: Winston Churchill - A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject...

Whilst there is possibly room for improvement with regards to this race, especially the start. What a 'cock up!' The whole of the hugely successful British race industry should not be condemned upon the result of the most well known race in the world.

But one cannot always change or open some people's blinkered views...
 
Over2you ... maybe you should email a few racing yards & ask them your question about justification. It's very very sad & to say Jockeys, owners & trainers have no feelings for the horses is what i found sickening about your rather large post before, & you state it's the "TRUTH" but it is just your opinion. I'm sure everyone at the yards of any horse that has died recently must still feel the lose of such amazing animals everytime they pass the empty stable that used to have a great character in it.
 
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