Grand National so many failed to finish!

In my original post my sadness was directed initially to the low number of finishers.

This isn't a first round SJ class where the course builder wants to have 10 in the jump off!

Of course I am very sorry that 2 suffered fatal injuries, but surely something is wrong if half a field fail to complete the course?

I know nothing about racing at this level, so stand ready to be corrected.
 
xspiralx said:
RIP According to Pete and Synchronised.

It is very sad for any horses to die, and of course to have such a high profile death in the Gold Cup winner is an absolute PR disaster for racing as much as anything else.

It's a tremendous shame, and devastating for the all the connections of the horse.

But that said, these horses are bred to do a job. They are kept in peak physical condition while they are alive. If they do have an accident they are put out of their misery quickly and painlessly.

There are millions of animals in this country that are not so lucky. Not just horses and other pets, but millions and millions of factory farmed animals.

So yes, whilst it is sad when any horse dies unnecessarily, I think it is important to keep a sense of perspective.
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While i agree with some of what you say, i believe that the grand national is a race that has an unacceptable amount of injury and deaths, and to ignore that or " not bother "to comment on, or try to lobby to change, it because other acts of cruelty and negligence go on elsewhere is not acceptable to me, and the reason i will speak out against it, and other aspects of animal welfare that give me cause for concern
 
Dovorian said:
In my original post my sadness was directed initially to the low number of finishers.

This isn't a first round SJ class where the course builder wants to have 10 in the jump off!

Of course I am very sorry that 2 suffered fatal injuries, but surely something is wrong if half a field fail to complete the course?

I know nothing about racing at this level, so stand ready to be corrected.
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I dont think you need to know anything about racing to know that your comment is right, its unnacceptable that not even half the field make it to the finish.
I also agree that the field should be halfed
 
I was at Aintree yesterday and whilst I love the race I do think that they need less runners. Even if they drop the number down to 30 that will make a HUGE difference.

Both Synchronised and Pete looked fantastic yesterday and it is such a shame that they lost their lives. R.I.P. lovely horses.
 
punk said:
I SSSOOO agree with you!! I do think it is the number of runners that is the problem IMHO - the horses (and riders) get anxious by being crowded, and there are some very tight turns and very large fences!!! Am no expert , being an eventer at heart, but how many of our Badminton riders would like to come into a 5' fence surrounded by other horses (some of them quite possibly riderless!!) I know it is the norm in racing, but the fences and the course are not the norm of steeplechasing.

I would hate to see the GN become a walk in the park - it should test to the limit - but to see so many horses 'brought down' by others doesn't do the sport any good in the long run.
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The largest number to be killed in the race was 4 in 1954 the race had one of the smallest fields in it's history, just 29.
Speed kills, the RSPCA is partly responsible for the fatalities as it put so much pressure on the authorities to lower the jumps. that's why they are blustering now.
 
Has it got that much quicker, looking back 15 years ago, same times, same going. If you go back much further then yes, but would you expect to see some improvement due to breeding and feeds etc?

1997 Lord Gyllene 09-10-00 Tony Dobbin Steve Brookshaw Stan Clarke 14/1 9m 5.8s Good 36
1996 Rough Quest 10-10-07 Mick Fitzgerald Terry Casey Andrew Wates 7/1 F 9m 0.8s Good 27
1995 Royal Athlete 12-10-06 Jason Titley Jenny Pitman Gary & Libby Johnson 40/1 9m 4.0s Good 35


Rough Quest 1996 9m on Good - 1 fatality after the race
Party Politics 1992 9m 6 on good to soft - no fatalities (?)
Mr Frisk 1990 8m 47 s on Firm - no fatalities
Red Rum 1973 9m 1 s on Firm - 1 fatality after the race


Think last two years have run around 9m 6 mark on good to firm. So is it the speed that is the issue?

95, 96 & 97 did have smaller fields.
 
millitiger said:
I love racing but still struggle to see why they allow 40 horses in the GN?

It is far too many and imo the sheer number of horses NOT the fences is what causes so many falls.

Poor According To Pete who was PTS was brought down by another horse.

Why not limit it to a more sensible number of runners like 20?
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^^ This, far too many runners
 
One interesting thing is that since they had the ballot system & limited it to 40 runners there has nearly always been the full number. Prior to that the numbers fluctuated between the high twenties & high 40s.
It's status has grown & with the modifications faster & higher rated horses have taken part. In the post war years not that many Gold Cup horses took part until the latter years. Alverton, L'Esgargot, Garrison Savannah & Master Oats towards the end of the century. Prior to that it was a race for specialist staying chasers who in many cases failed to excel on park tracks due to lack of speed. Perhaps a move should be made to re-create these conditions again & let it retake it's place as that specialist race. No race can be made safe & there will always be fatalities in NH racing.
Possibly the 1954 result was one of those freakish events that occurs, one of those horses died after running loose too. Narrowing the fences to make the run outs has led to crowding, not many horses are taking advantage of the run outs. Hard to know what to do to reduce the loose horses, they have always been the real problem with this race.
 
Honeylight said:
One interesting thing is that since they had the ballot system & limited it to 40 runners there has nearly always been the full number. Prior to that the numbers fluctuated between the high twenties & high 40s.
It's status has grown & with the modifications faster & higher rated horses have taken part. In the post war years not that many Gold Cup horses took part until the latter years. Alverton, L'Esgargot, Garrison Savannah & Master Oats towards the end of the century. Prior to that it was a race for specialist staying chasers who in many cases failed to excel on park tracks due to lack of speed. Perhaps a move should be made to re-create these conditions again & let it retake it's place as that specialist race. No race can be made safe & there will always be fatalities in NH racing.
Possibly the 1954 result was one of those freakish events that occurs, one of those horses died after running loose too. Narrowing the fences to make the run outs has led to crowding, not many horses are taking advantage of the run outs. Hard to know what to do to reduce the loose horses, they have always been the real problem with this race.
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That is really interesting, i didnt think about the narrowing of the fences. Loose horses are a big problem, always remember watching that Rummy win when he was flanked by those two loose horses and praying that they didnt bring him down.

With the growth of the status of the race, do owners look for rated horses just to get in the race without considerastion as to whether it is a National horse or not?
 
It seems to me that in previous years the horses who were lost had usually fallen badly & broken necks. However now even on the flat horses are breaking legs.... :confused:
Whatever the arguments in favour of racing, losing two good horses like that takes the gloss from the race & the joy from winning!
And how long before owners don't want to enter their horses?...
 
Honeylight said:
It's status has grown & with the modifications faster & higher rated horses have taken part. In the post war years not that many Gold Cup horses took part until the latter years. Alverton, L'Esgargot, Garrison Savannah & Master Oats towards the end of the century. Prior to that it was a race for specialist staying chasers who in many cases failed to excel on park tracks due to lack of speed. Perhaps a move should be made to re-create these conditions again & let it retake it's place as that specialist race. No race can be made safe & there will always be fatalities in NH racing.
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My husband who is a flat racing man, would totally agree with you. He feels it is not only the number of runners, but also the qualification criteria that needs to be looked into.

There will be accidental fatalities in ALL top equine sporting events, as well as stable accidents, field accidents, road accidents, breeding accidents, and many horses will die in the hands of people who should not be let anywhere near a clothes horse, never mind a living breathing one!!!!!

Two weeks ago I witnessed 3 group 1 FLAT horses in the same race all lose their lives due to broken legs (one more than the Grand National), it is NEVER a nice thing to witness and my heart goes out to the connections of all horses that lose their lives on the 'sporting field', but it happens and no amount of added red tape will stop it 100%!! Have posters forgotten about the sad lose of Hickstead in the show jumping arena. Do we now need to have all competitive horses heart rates taken before, during and after a show jumping competition. Call Again Cavalier broke his leg in the express eventing final, Dirk Demeersman promising young stallion Ugano Sitte broke his leg while being lunged. I also know of more than one stallion who has lost his life slipping of either a mare or the dummy. Last month a friend lost her very promising young show jumper while she was transporting it back to the stables after a successful weekend of competition, it kicked in the trailer and broke a hind leg. It happens.

Do I think the GN should be stopped, no I don't, but I do think that there needs to be a rethink regarding the number of runners and the qualification criteria of those horses that do run.

To stop accidents happening in the hands of humans, we would need to stop riding horses, however even if we turned them all out into the lush green pastures, you can be guaranteed accidents will still happen, we just won't get to witness them.
 
wildwhippet said:
It seems to me that in previous years the horses who were lost had usually fallen badly & broken necks. However now even on the flat horses are breaking legs.... :confused:
Whatever the arguments in favour of racing, losing two good horses like that takes the gloss from the race & the joy from winning!
And how long before owners don't want to enter their horses?...
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The two fatalities on the course last year were due to broken necks and spinal injury, this year it was leg injuries. Maybe they didnt do enough road work this year? Is it just coincidence that it was legs this year? AtP was bought down by another horse resulting in his injury.
 
Eventing, show jumping, dressage, polo, lunging, putting in the stable, turning out, etc, never begin with "I wonder how many will survive" so I don't think are comparable. If anyone can find a stat that compares to over 20 horses being killed racing in March alone, maybe I'll change my perspective, I don't mean through cruelty, neglect, etc, I mean by another equine activity labeled sport.
 
I.M.N. said:
Eventing, show jumping, dressage, polo, lunging, putting in the stable, turning out, etc, never begin with "I wonder how many will survive" so I don't think are comparable. If anyone can find a stat that compares to over 20 horses being killed racing in March alone, maybe I'll change my perspective, I don't mean through cruelty, neglect, etc, I mean by another equine activity labeled sport.
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If they are accidents, then why are they not comparable! To not compare them would only suggest that you consider the fatalities as intentional!
 
I don't consider them intentional but I do think they are somewhat expected, which they aren't when it comes to other sports. This is only my opinion not a fact.
 
I.M.N. said:
Eventing, show jumping, dressage, polo, lunging, putting in the stable, turning out, etc, never begin with "I wonder how many will survive" so I don't think are comparable. If anyone can find a stat that compares to over 20 horses being killed racing in March alone, maybe I'll change my perspective, I don't mean through cruelty, neglect, etc, I mean by another equine activity labeled sport.
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So what equine event does start with 'I wonder how many will survive'? If you are refering to the National, maybe others may say, 'i wonder who is going to win'?

Others out there may say, 'that novice who hasn't got a clue, i wonder how long it will be before that horse is ruined, and its life turned to misery'?

or 'that horse who is over weight and just been turned out onto lush grass, it will get lami and suffers because his owner is ignorant'?

Just wonder why you don't want to apply cases of cruelty and neglect, and expection of injury to the general horse owning population but more than happy to do so with racing?
 
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Dab said:
So what equine event does start with 'I wonder how many will survive'? If you are refering to the National, maybe others may say, 'i wonder who is going to win'?

Others out there may say, 'that novice who hasn't got a clue, i wonder how long it will be before that horse is ruined, and its life turned to misery'?

or 'that horse who is over weight and just been turned out onto lush grass, it will get lami and suffers because his owner is ignorant'?

Just wonder why you don't want to apply cases of cruelty and neglect, and expection of injury to the general horse owning population but more than happy to do so with racing?
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Sorry I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. First off, I'm not having a go at racing, I think the horses must be looked after very well as they always look excellent, and any athlete that is pushed to it's limit has to be in top physical form, so in many ways I think the horses are look after better then many others.

People say 'I wonder who is going to win?' with every equine sport, but I feel only racing caries the constant question of 'how many will make it?'. I could be wrong, this is just how I feel, maybe everyone else out there thinks 'I wonder how many will make it?' when they watch other equine sports.

The reason I don't apply cases of cruelty and neglect, and expectation of injury to the general horse owning population is because I'm only talking about activities that fall under the heading sport. I'm sure the number of fatalities due to neglect far out way that of racing, but fatalities are expected when it comes to neglect, not when it comes to sport.

I understand it is a ratio game as well, there are twice (only a guess) as many horses racing then there are competing in other sports, so maybe if you add up all the other sports fatalities and double it it might be the same as racing.

Unfortunately because racing is so in the public eye, and people always get so passionate about animals it will always come under criticism, I only form my opinions of what I know and how I feel, and am always interested in being presented with new information.
 
Hate the grand national. Ridiculous that it is still allowed to continue. Several horses seem to die every single year, if that happened in a single event in a single disipline elsewhere it'd be banned! Imagine if horses died at Badminton all the time, dont think it'd continue very long.
 
I.M.N. said:
People say 'I wonder who is going to win?' with every equine sport, but I feel only racing caries the constant question of 'how many will make it?'. I could be wrong, this is just how I feel, maybe everyone else out there thinks 'I wonder how many will make it?' when they watch other equine sports.
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Thanks for taking the time to reply, i'm really interested to see what peoples thoughts are on the subject and how they justify various issues.

With regard to feeling that 'only racing carries the constant question of 'how many will make it?' Does this feeling arise when you consider all racing or just the National? Do you think 'how many will make it' when you consider a flat race or hurdles? Just wondering where 'the constant' comes from? And if it is more risk adverse.



I.M.N. said:
The reason I don't apply cases of cruelty and neglect, and expectation of injury to the general horse owning population is because I'm only talking about activities that fall under the heading sport. I'm sure the number of fatalities due to neglect far out way that of racing, but fatalities are expected when it comes to neglect, not when it comes to sport..
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Sorry, not sure i follow this reasoning. Fatalities are expected when it comes to neglect but not sport?

Does that also mean that horse fatalities that are dervived from entertainment generated in sport are less acceptable then fatalities that are generated by the entertainment gained from general horse owning (non-prof, hobby owners etc).
 
xspiralx said:
RIP According to Pete and Synchronised.

It is very sad for any horses to die, and of course to have such a high profile death in the Gold Cup winner is an absolute PR disaster for racing as much as anything else.

It's a tremendous shame, and devastating for the all the connections of the horse.

But that said, these horses are bred to do a job. They are kept in peak physical condition while they are alive. If they do have an accident they are put out of their misery quickly and painlessly.

There are millions of animals in this country that are not so lucky. Not just horses and other pets, but millions and millions of factory farmed animals.

So yes, whilst it is sad when any horse dies unnecessarily, I think it is important to keep a sense of perspective.
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Couldnt have put it better myself...!

I am a fan of racing and always will be.
 
How many top eventers would enter the same horse for badmington and burghley if they were only 4 weeks apart and what would the public outcry be if they did!
I too think the number of runners should be culled less runners more space to avoid fallers and loose horses, also sorry this one is going to be unpopular but the drop fences should go or at least lessened , I think statistics will show this is where most deaths indirectly or directly occur, leave the size of the fences alone of even increase it would still be a great race!
 
I agree with Noodle as well. I didn't know that both the fatalities were caused when running loose/being brought down - even sadder I think. Of all the horses running you would have said that Synchronised would have got round.

I don't think the course can be modified any more. The going was OK. Lots didn't finish because they were pulled up, surely much better than to keep on with a horse with no chance.

And as for owners being upset -of course they are upset, but they must know that every day is a hazard for a TB.

The race has always been a bit of a lottery, and it still attracts so many runners because it has the biggest prize money of the year.
 
lannerch said:
How many top eventers would enter the same horse for badmington and burghley if they were only 4 weeks apart and what would the public outcry be if they did!
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What makes you think that? Plenty of top eventers are competed more than once a month - and its not even hard to find examples of horses that have done a 3 star and a 4 star within 3 weeks of each other. ie. Belton just before Badminton.
 
Walked the course about 2 weeks ago and I can assure people the course is a shadow of it's former self having walked it about 25 years ago. Maybe have a think about number of runners and the start. The course rode very well in the Topham and I was confident we'd have over 20 finish the race, how wrong I was. The delayed start perhaps made both horses and jockeys more anxious than usual which resulted in a manic pace for the 1st circuit. I'd be interested if anybody knew the split times. Neptune who I actually backed (been a fan of his for many years) was all but last over the 1st fence...anybody else notice that? Gone are the days of hunting the 1st circuit and racing the 2nd altho that's sort of what Neptune did. The reduced sizes of the fences has stopped horses backing off and more speed resulted. I didn't know about the fatalities until after I'd won but I didn't enjoy the race due to so much mayhem/manic pace. Obviously I was gutted to hear about Synchronised (history repeating itself, I remember Alverton all to well) but he actually fatally injured himself 5 fences after Beecher and it was so sad about According to Pete, being brought down in any race often results in serious injuries.Personally I have seen far worse "cruelty" at P T Ps with aged unsound horses, rock hard ground and crap jockeys but then these events aren't watched by millions.
 
Dab said:
Thanks for taking the time to reply, i'm really interested to see what peoples thoughts are on the subject and how they justify various issues.

With regard to feeling that 'only racing carries the constant question of 'how many will make it?' Does this feeling arise when you consider all racing or just the National? Do you think 'how many will make it' when you consider a flat race or hurdles? Just wondering where 'the constant' comes from? And if it is more risk adverse.
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Yes I apply it to flat and hurdles, I don't know why I just always feel a bit uncomfortable watching racing, in the same way I feel uncomfortable when I watch certain top riders going cross country. There is one event rider who whenever I watch I wonder if the horse will be the next of (event riders) fatalities.


Dab said:
Sorry, not sure i follow this reasoning. Fatalities are expected when it comes to neglect but not sport?

Does that also mean that horse fatalities that are dervived from entertainment generated in sport are less acceptable then fatalities that are generated by the entertainment gained from general horse owning (non-prof, hobby owners etc).
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I meant more that fatalities /should not/ be expected when it comes to sport, like they are when it comes to neglect. I don't think I'm making it any clearer. I really don't know how to explain it, sorry.
 
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