Grand National - yay or nay?

[npage123]

They've started talking about the Grand National in the media and I'm sure for those working in the horse-racing industry, they're probably already counting the days to the big race.

I personally have stopped watching the Grand National because I've seen a view too many poor horses breaking their legs (not only in that particular race). I'm more interested in seeing the walking up before-hand and how they treat the horses afterwards.

To be honest, I don't know much about racing at all, but feel that the horses become exhausted fairly early on in the race, but regardless of that, the organisers put in some jumps that are just too enormous, and I think there's no need to ask an already exhausted horse to jump every one of those big ones till the very end.

Are there people that maybe work with National Hunt horses who feel that it's necessary to have the jumps to such a high degree of difficulty, in order to really separate the wheat from the chaff? Is it really necessary to have the jumps so massively big in order to determine which horse should be crowned the winner?

 

[KautoStar1]

If you don't watch it how can you 'feel' that the horses become exhausted so early on.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

They have actually made the fences smaller and "safer" over the years. Not many people agree with this, I for one, as it encourages the jockeys to go faster. They know that the top 2-2.5ft of each fence is just fluffy green branches that you can go through, pull to the floor and not miss a stride. The older fences made you really sit back, get your horse jumping and were scary!

If you look at the times of the race - it's not changed much since Red Rum's day. What had changed is the each circuit is ran in pretty much an equal time. In Red Rum's era they went much slower the first circuit then went much quicker the second. The general rule of thumb was - you hunted for a circuit then raced for a circuit. Who ever was still standing at the end of the first circuit was a good jumper who was capable of racing over the fences for the next circuit.

The National is unique in it's fences. People only kick up such a fuss about it because it is the most watched race of the year. The year that Syncronised died how many people knew, or cared, that 2 horses fell and died at Sedgefield a few days later? Identical falls at the same fence at exactly the same time and completely unconnected with each other.

A run down of the day of the National for a horse goes a little something like this - Usual flumf before they arrive at the races. At some point before they are brought out to be saddled each horse will be trotted up and have it's heart listened to by a vet. Horses will be pulled out about 45mins before the race and start walking round to the pre-parade ring to be saddled. Once saddled they carry on to the main parade ring - which by this point will be absolutely packed with people - in number order-ish. Once the jockeys are up they sort out the final order and they parade in front of the stands. Then off they toddle to race.

Once back in every jockey has been pre-instructed to get off as soon as possible to allow water to be poured over the horse. There is a massive team of people and more water than you could ever dream of waiting for these horses. There are big fans that spray cold water over them too. Any horse deemed not fit to return to the winners enclosure - if it has attained a place - will not go there, simple as. Their welfare comes first. Vets will check over each and every horse and give any horse any treatment it requires. The horses are then walked off for about half an hour to cool down before heading back to their boxes.

These horses are trained to peak fitness. Each jump now has a get out option so you can go round it. There are outriders everywhere to catch loose horses and put them in holding pens until the end of the race so they are safe. Jockeys aren't stupid. They aren't going to keep going on a horse that is too tired to continue. Not only are they putting the horse in danger they are putting themselves in danger if the horse falls and thats before you get to the wrath of the stewards! Any jockey found to be continuing on a horse that should have been pulled up will be come down on like a tonne of bricks!

 

[j1ffy]

Isn't there a stat somewhere (EKW you may know) that shows there have been more equine fatalities since the fences were made 'safer'? As you said, the smaller fences have encouraged faster riding and also encouraged owners / trainers to put weaker jumpers into the race.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...intree-racecourse_uk_5703cb93e4b0884065f1519a
A link which shows the most 'dangerous fences' the reasons why they are dangerous and other facts and figures,.according to Animal Aid there have been 1,370 horse deaths in 3,312 days on british racecourses.
Apparently there have been no fatalaties on the Grand National since fences were reduced in size.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

A run down of the day of the National for a horse goes a little something like this - Usual flumf before they arrive at the races. At some point before they are brought out to be saddled each horse will be trotted up and have it's heart listened to by a vet. Horses will be pulled out about 45mins before the race and start walking round to the pre-parade ring to be saddled. Once saddled they carry on to the main parade ring - which by this point will be absolutely packed with people - in number order-ish. Once the jockeys are up they sort out the final order and they parade in front of the stands. Then off they toddle to race.

Once back in every jockey has been pre-instructed to get off as soon as possible to allow water to be poured over the horse. There is a massive team of people and more water than you could ever dream of waiting for these horses. There are big fans that spray cold water over them too. Any horse deemed not fit to return to the winners enclosure - if it has attained a place - will not go there, simple as. Their welfare comes first. Vets will check over each and every horse and give any horse any treatment it requires. The horses are then walked off for about half an hour to cool down before heading back to their boxes.

that's really interesting.

 

[ester]

Oh, glad to see you sorted your keyboard out HB, and still referring to some of your favourite websites :rolleyes3:.

 

[Girlracer]

I am no expert on facts and figures, but it's still a 'nay' from me.

I just don't feel comfortable watching it, although I used to.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Oh, glad to see you sorted your keyboard out HB, and still referring to some of your favourite websites :rolleyes3:.

I have no idea what you are ranting on about but I believe there are over 2000 + people who are registered on this forum, I am sure there are many that have mentioned the huffington Post and links to it.I will be having a bet for certain on the National I love horse racing and always have.If you want to continue to make silly remarks about me then continue to do so, do any of us really care.I think not.

 

[ester]

Ranting? How can a single comment be deemed a rant? pretty sure you need more than one sentence for that definition.

I'm not the one pretending to be someone I'm not so I don't think I look too silly at all.
and it wasn't the huff post that I was making a point about.

Again many congratulations on your keyboard sort out.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Ranting? How can a single comment be deemed a rant? pretty sure you need more than one sentence for that definition.

I'm not the one pretending to be someone I'm not so I don't think I look too silly at all.
and it wasn't the huff post that I was making a point about.

Again many congratulations on your keyboard sort out.

I am not pretending to be anyone.you could not be more wrong but whatever Ester.And like I said before my keyboard was sticking.Cant be arsed to argue life is to short and to much else to wory about.

 

[Orangehorse]

Generally the number of deaths of horses has reduced considerably compared to 20 years ago, all this was put out when Many Clouds died at Cheltenham. I watch racing most Saturdays and think that there are fewer fallers now than in the past.
I don't know why this is - is it better training or better racecourses?

I didn't know that in the GN the vet listens to the horse's heart before the race - does that happen at every race or is it only the big ones?

The handicapper for the GN was on TV last week and said that the field is the highest quality ever, so more and more owners and trainers are willing to run their horse in the race - although I do agree that I have reservations about the smaller fences leading to faster races.

 

[AdorableAlice]

It is speed that brings horses down. You can guarantee that the first fence in the National will bring down far more horses than the largest fence, The Chair will, purely because they will be tanking at the first as opposed to setting up for the Chair. Another major factor to falls and injury is the going. Deep heavy going blunts the speed, you will see far more pulled up, tired horses than you will see high speed crunching falls. The loss on the track is high profile, what you don't see so readily are the irreparable break downs and injuries that are not commercially or ethically repairable. It is also worth remembering that the final decision as to what happens to the horse lies with the owner.

The racecourse vets work extremely hard on all tracks. There are vets in the stables, on the track, both start, finish and following the runners, and in the paddock. All the vets are fully equipped to both save and end lives as necessary and this level of care is provided at the lowliest track right up to the glittering festivals.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

In the national I think there are vets at every fence due to the large volume of horse likely to fall. normal everyday races they follow in a car on the outside of the track.Its my understanding that horses that jump at speed jump flat and this causes them to fall but I might be wrong.I would not go and watch personally but like to have a bet on the day.I think any horse/jockey that goes round the G National is a very brave.

 

[humblepie]

Higher rated horses are running in the Grand National now as well since the fences were changed - Many Clouds was rated 160 and I think the top 5 were all 140 plus so the type of horse and the race itself has really evolved recently.

 

[Notimetoride]

Yay ! Love it !!!

 

[amandaco2]

no, I don't like it. im not a racing fan.

 

[Luci07]

In the national I think there are vets at every fence due to the large volume of horse likely to fall. normal everyday races they follow in a car on the outside of the track.Its my understanding that horses that jump at speed jump flat and this causes them to fall but I might be wrong.I would not go and watch personally but like to have a bet on the day.I think any horse/jockey that goes round the G National is a very brave.

You are wrong about the jumping at speed, think of how the top eventers run. While they will be set up for the more technical fences, they tackle the big straightforward fences at quite a speed!. Racehorses are taught to jump fairly flat so they don't waste time in the air. This can make it interesting when you want to retrain a chaser (been there, bought that t-shirt).

I enjoy chase races but not very keen on the National. More because I can't enjoy a race where I really have to hold my breath hoping all the horses will get back uninjured. I will watch it later when I can focus on the race and not worry about the horses and jockeys. As a matter of interest for those better informed, what is the criteria for entry? I presume I couldn't suddenly decide my horse could be competitive and just enter?

 

[smja]

I was at the national last year and it was incredible. The whole crowd willing the horses on and home safe, the cheers as they galloped past. Brilliant.

I watch every year. I confess that I'm always anxious when horses fall and want to know they're ok - that's something the commentary has become much better at recently. I've also spent a bit of time at Leahurst this year, and they have articles about their care of Balthazar King up; the support he received after being injured was amazing.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

To be eligible for The National a horse must have completed 5 races over chase fences. They must be at least 5 or 6yo (can't remember which, think it may be 6), have won or been placed over at least 3miles and have achieved a rating of at least 120. So that sorts the halfway decent horses out from the generic every day horses.

These days you need a mark of at least 145 to even contemplate getting in the National. So it really is for the good horses. The horse that runs in it from our yard this year is rated 147, he needs 5 horses to come out of the top 40 before he gets a run. This will happen as Gigginstown have pulled their top 3 in a disagreement with the handicapper already. Another has come out through injury. So only 1 more horse needs to come out in the next 6 weeks for him to get a run. I'd say 6-10 will come out of the top 40 before final declarations.

As to vets - horses in all the major races will be trotted up and checked when they arrive at the racecourse stables on the day of the race. From the National to the Derby. They all get looked over. At a normal every day race meeting the vets will only look at a horse before the race if it has been off the track for a long time or you request them too. Yes they make a special effort on the big race days because they can't have anything go wrong. There's too many people watching and waiting to find an excuse, and excuse.

Like Synchronised in the National a few years ago. He got loose before the start. Cantered around a bit before being caught. Now the same happened that day as it would for a generic beach donkey derby meeting. The vets checked the horse over and took the horses heart rate. If the heart rate is above a certain level the horse is not allowed to race. If it within certain parameters then the horse can run with the permission of the trainer and provided the jockey is OK and has been given the all clear to ride by the doctor. Synchronised had a wee jaunt, nothing more than an easy lob for him so his heart rate wouldn't have been too high as he hasn't really exerted himself more than he would have cantering to the start with his jockey.

What happened to him was a cruel twist of fate. Another horse brought him down to the ground.

As to there being more deaths now than in yesteryear? No. It averages out the same. The difference now is that more people watch, more people notice, there is more press involved and more animal rights people about than ever before.

Whether you like the National or not let's just all hope and pray they come back safe.

 

[Bright_Spark]

The Grand National is probably one of the most watched races, so any deaths are going to be seen and reported by more people. Horses die in other races/ competitions/ on the road/ in the field but most people are not aware of them because it's not reported.

I am probably wrong, but I am not sure if there are any other races that do two circuits of the track? This, and now having the field go round fences means there is sometimes the sight of a tarp covered body or a screen up. I think this makes it hit home all the more. I stopped watching the Grand National (all racing actually) when Synchronized and According To Pete died. I do not have anything against racing, but for some reason it really affected me that day.

 

[shadeofshyness]

I'm from Liverpool and it's a huge thing for us, I've always watched it but have to say I don't really enjoy watching it (or any racing) as much as I used to - but I don't think it's any more or less dangerous than it ever was. My heart has always been in my mouth hoping they're all safe.

 

[wench]

I will be watching it

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

The Grand National is probably one of the most watched races, so any deaths are going to be seen and reported by more people. Horses die in other races/ competitions/ on the road/ in the field but most people are not aware of them because it's not reported.

I am probably wrong, but I am not sure if there are any other races that do two circuits of the track? This, and now having the field go round fences means there is sometimes the sight of a tarp covered body or a screen up. I think this makes it hit home all the more. I stopped watching the Grand National (all racing actually) when Synchronized and According To Pete died. I do not have anything against racing, but for some reason it really affected me that day.

Plenty of races do two circuits or more of the track. Its just that one circuit of the National course is longer than a circuit of any other racecourse. Take the Scottish National 2 3/4 circuits of Ayr over regulation chase fences. Most tracks are less than 2miles round. The National course is just over 2miles round.

The shortest jumping track is Cartmel. It is 1mile 1and a bit furlongs round. A 3 mile chase round there is nearly 3 circuits. That makes you dizzy watching that!

I was at Aintree the year those two died. According To Pete was the yard pet going for his last run before retirement. We were standing next to the scute in when his two lasses were told by radio that their horse wasn't returning as he had been put down on the course. They crumpled. As would I have done. It still makes me well up thinking of it now. They never got the chance to say goodbye. That's the worst thing that could ever happen to those that look after them. Only 1 of mine in my 14years in the job has been lost on the course. She died on impact but I still had to take her bridle off and said goodbye.

 

[stencilface]

Have to say I prefer watching the rerun these days once everyone is back home and we know the outcomes.

I have been to the national as a spectator and worked there in hospitality (Liverpool student) and have to say the atmosphere is immense.

I'll watch but I probably won't bet, I case I curse any them

 

[PaddyMonty]

It's a No from me and not just for the National.

 

[Sukistokes2]

I do not watch it on TV but have been on four occasions and it was simply fantastic. The atmosphere and the noise is amazing. I have always been in a box at the start , which is just around from the finish.The cheer when the runners come out is deafening and so exciting. The weather can be really warm to freezing cold. On the warm days teams of grooms wait for the runners and they are sloshed down with buckets as soon as they are caught. No one cares whose horse is whose, they work together to sort those animals out and work out who belongs to who after they are cool. It was amusing to watch. Even the trainers were carrying buckets one year, when it was really warm. The care and attention to welfare was clear, yes horses are killed but horses are killed eventing, show jumping, hunting, and die of starvation standing around in fields. My sister's friends pony died at a local show, while being cantered in the ring, his leg just shattered. Horses die and its sad, I think its more important how they live and the care and attention they are given while alive. At the National its second to none. If you do not like it, don't watch it and yes lets all wish the runners and riders a safe trip .....

 

[mcnaughty]

Love it!!

 

[AdorableAlice]

You are wrong about the jumping at speed, think of how the top eventers run. While they will be set up for the more technical fences, they tackle the big straightforward fences at quite a speed!. Racehorses are taught to jump fairly flat so they don't waste time in the air. This can make it interesting when you want to retrain a chaser (been there, bought that t-shirt).

I enjoy chase races but not very keen on the National. More because I can't enjoy a race where I really have to hold my breath hoping all the horses will get back uninjured. I will watch it later when I can focus on the race and not worry about the horses and jockeys. As a matter of interest for those better informed, what is the criteria for entry? I presume I couldn't suddenly decide my horse could be competitive and just enter?

I doubt there are many event horses allowed to or capable of, travelling at the same speed to a fence that a 2 mile chaser is travelling at.

 

[npage123]

If you don't watch it how can you 'feel' that the horses become exhausted so early on.

I used to watch it but don't any more.
I used the words 'I feel' but should probably have written 'in my humble opinion'.
I was just trying to get a conversation going about the Grand National and thought I made it quite clear that I don't know much about the racing industry. Just wanted some input and thoughts from people who do.