Grasping at straws...

BronwenSurf

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Can anyone help explain my gelding's shift in behaviour?
To set the scene: owned my now 14 year old OTTB for 4 years now, 3 years ago we moved to a new yard (we're in Ontario Canada) where the quality of care he gets is much better than the place we were at before. In the summer he is out in a bigger half acre field on a big hill with 2 buddies and in the fall/ winter when the grass gets low he goes in a much much smaller paddock so it's easier for the staff to bring them hay and also the paddock is flat so its safer in the winter (still with his 2 buddies). The smaller paddock isn't necessarily a dry lot, it is still covered in grass that I've seen him grazing on but simply because of the smaller area, there is less available forage. The smaller paddock is close to the barn and he watches all the other horses get brought in past him before he is brought in last or nearly last. I think this upsets him as he comes in with mud all the way up his legs from running around for the last 15 minutes he's outside. For the 3rd year in a row now, immediately after he starts getting turned out in the smaller paddock his behaviour changes completely. He bites at me more often, he is nervous, not relaxed and anxious under saddle and is more stressed when it is time to come in from the paddock. At first I thought it was the change in weather but this year he was moved to the small paddock much earlier than previous years and the same bad behaviour symptoms came back while the weather is still mild. He continues to spiral and get worse under saddle until it seems the weather improves and he can go back to his big paddock. The first year I had him he only got turn out maximum 5 days a week (sometimes less if the weather was "bad") in a dry paddock about the size of a round pen. We made it through that winter at that horrible stable with no incident of these behaviour changes.

The first two years this happened at the new yard I convinced myself it was a pain thing so this year we tried many precautions: he was on omeprazole during the move to the new paddock, he has been on previcox for some arthritis that may be bothering him in his neck since this spring, his back was inject this spring after we x-rayed and found some kissing spine, he was on cyproheptadine for the last month... Just before he moved to this paddock he was PERFECT (and I cannot stress perfect enough) under saddle. No spooks, no anxiety, no signs of lameness, no tension getting tacked up, perfect on the lunge line, happy, calm and happy to do his little job of packing his amateur mom around for a few hours a week. But in the last week (approx 3 weeks he's been in the small paddock now) he is spooking out of nowhere which is out of character, he is not stretching down into the bridle like he normally does, he is always going at a faster pace than normal and wont slow down and just seems over all anxious under saddle. The ONLY thing that changed in the last month was moving to this smaller paddock. The issues I've listed he's presenting are the exact same that happened the last 2 years. The more I ride him during this period, the worse and more anxious he gets... I just cant put together how moving to this small paddock translates to bad behaviour under saddle and anxiety...

It isn't an option to be in the large paddock for the winter because its a big hill that wouldn't be safe with the snow and ice.. the care we receive at this barn is really great so I hate to be nit-picky and tell them how to do their job or ask them to bring him in first every day if it does in fact bother him to watch every other horse get brought in before him. He can't really go to another paddock because they say he chews the fences if there is no electric fencing and the small paddock he is in now is the only one with electric wires. I've tried everything I can think of to manage and fix any pain he is in because I thought that was the underlying issue but after all the treatments and precautions I took, I don't think it is pain related.
I introduced him to clicker training thinking I could changes his outlook on work and make it a positive experience but once he starts these bad behaviours, even the clicker training cant get him to relax and there has been no way to get him out of the spiral until the good weather comes back. He is on a balanced feed, mad barn visceral supplement and a hoof supplement.

I know these facts are so random and specific but if anyone has any clue or advice as to what might be going on in his little brain please let me know! I just want him to be the happy calm horse I know he is and I hate to cause him unnecessary anxiety.
 

Arzada

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The smaller paddock is close to the barn and he watches all the other horses get brought in past him before he is brought in last or nearly last. I think this upsets him as he comes in with mud all the way up his legs from running around for the last 15 minutes he's outside.
Have you asked the staff to bring him and his buddies in first to see if it makes a difference to his behaviour?
 

Squeak

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Have you asked the staff to bring him and his buddies in first to see if it makes a difference to his behaviour?

I wonder if he feels the other two horses are in too close proximity to him in the smaller paddock? Or resource guarding with the lack of food perhaps

These were my first thoughts too. Possibly being left until the end or near the end to be bought in is upsetting him and possibly being in the smaller pen with the others could be upsetting him.
 

ycbm

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However well you think he's looked after at this barn, he is telling you that it doesn't suit him.

Please find him somewhere with safe turnout that's bigger. You refer to half an acre as "big" . That's only about 70mx35m and I would consider that very small for 3 horses. Yet in winter he is moved to something smaller that must be really tiny.

He is clearly telling you that he needs more space.
.
 

BronwenSurf

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Have you asked the staff to bring him and his buddies in first to see if it makes a difference to his behaviour?
I haven't because I dont want to be nitpicky since the staff are really good in every other regard and I can't understand how that anxiety translates to bad behaviour under saddle... but I think I will have to at least ask
 

Squeak

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I think it would translate as - for example, think when you get stressed by something at home how much it can impact your work or make you too tired or not feel like exercising. It's not as obvious a link as a horses back hurting and so it bucking but when looking at the whole picture, a stressed horse wouldn't work as well as a relaxed happy one.
 

BronwenSurf

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However well you think he's looked after at this barn, he is telling you that it doesn't suit him.

Please find him somewhere with safe turnout that's bigger. You refer to half an acre as "big" . That's only about 70mx35m and I would consider that very small for 3 horses. Yet in winter he is moved to something smaller that must be really tiny.

He is clearly telling you that he needs more space.
.
I visited 10+ barns in my search for a new place. I went as far as an hour from my house and this was the only stable that fit all my needs (room for 3 horses, water in the winter, access to hay all the time, stalls maintained to a proper standard, grass paddocks, well maintained indoor arena, no automatic waterers, no riding school, no children staff, etc.). Do you suggest I separate him from my other horses and move him 2+ hours away?
 

Arzada

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I haven't because I dont want to be nitpicky since the staff are really good in every other regard and I can't understand how that anxiety translates to bad behaviour under saddle... but I think I will have to at least ask
I think asking in year 3 of the very small paddock affecting your horse's behaviour is perfectly reasonable.

He's stressed. eg he might not be getting sufficient sleep. You know that the routine is stressing him. SEL's suggestions of others in too close proximity and resource guarding. Others will suggest other possible reasons. Add riding on top and it's too much for him.
 

BronwenSurf

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I think it would translate as - for example, think when you get stressed by something at home how much it can impact your work or make you too tired or not feel like exercising. It's not as obvious a link as a horses back hurting and so it bucking but when looking at the whole picture, a stressed horse wouldn't work as well as a relaxed happy one.
for sure I definitely agree it's possible! It is just odd because his living arrangements at our first barn were DIRE. maybe 3 small hay feedings a day, often no water outside or periods of time inside with no water too, no grass in his paddock, turnout only 5 days a week, wasn't getting fed his supplements... terrible situation for any horse and yet he was perfectly happy there in a place that I can only assumed caused stress. one big difference was despite his tiny inadequate turnout, he was out by himself because he has back shoes. He's definitely the lowest of his pack but he likes playing with his friends and I think he likes going out with them and having social interaction is very important. but maybe he is a nervous guy and being in close proximity causes him stress and being alone is easier on his brain...
it is hard for me to weight the pros and cons of individual turn out where he may be less stressed and getting to go out with his buddies to get the social interactions he needs
 

BronwenSurf

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I think asking in year 3 of the very small paddock affecting your horse's behaviour is perfectly reasonable.

He's stressed. eg he might not be getting sufficient sleep. You know that the routine is stressing him. Others will suggest other possible reasons. Add riding on top and it's too much for him.
Thanks.. I will ask to see what they suggest and hope we can find something to help my guy
 

BronwenSurf

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In the very small winter paddock how much hay do the 3 of them get and how often is it put out to them?
the barn doesn't use round bales so they get a few flakes each in the morning.. they're not out super long unfortunately and I think it's probably not enough hay.. again I hate to be nit picky and don't want to mirco manage them but I guess I should speak up for the welfare of my horse
 

BronwenSurf

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If he was fine before in bad conditions on individual turnout then I feel it could be the fact he's too close to the others and prefers his own space.
he is a lil sensitive boy so very well could be... would it be better for him to be by himself rather than have access to social interactions
 

Parrotperson

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I visited 10+ barns in my search for a new place. I went as far as an hour from my house and this was the only stable that fit all my needs (room for 3 horses, water in the winter, access to hay all the time, stalls maintained to a proper standard, grass paddocks, well maintained indoor arena, no automatic waterers, no riding school, no children staff, etc.). Do you suggest I separate him from my other horses and move him 2+ hours away?

with all due respect you can't ignore his problems either. Or be too afraid to speak to the livery yard manager about them.

I would also say the area/s he is in (with other horses to boot) are way too small. He's coping in the slightly bigger summer area but. not in the much smaller winter area. It obviously stresses him out. Especially if the hay being put out isn't enough. That alone would cause his anxiety because he'd have to fight to get enough food.

Can he have an area to himself in winter? Near/next to the others so he doesn't feel alone? If nothing else it'd be worth trying this for month just to see if it makes a difference

If you feel you can't move him then his management must change otherwise he'll be unhappy for 6 months of the year and so will you.
 

GrassChop

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he is a lil sensitive boy so very well could be... would it be better for him to be by himself rather than have access to social interactions
I'm not sure if it would be better for him, only you would know if you tried but as long as he can see others or has company near the fence line then he wouldn't be completely alone.
 

BronwenSurf

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with all due respect you can't ignore his problems either. Or be too afraid to speak to the livery yard manager about them.

I would also say the area/s he is in (with other horses to boot) are way too small. He's coping in the slightly bigger summer area but. not in the much smaller winter area. It obviously stresses him out. Especially if the hay being put out isn't enough. That alone would cause his anxiety because he'd have to fight to get enough food.

Can he have an area to himself in winter? Near/next to the others so he doesn't feel alone? If nothing else it'd be worth trying this for month just to see if it makes a difference

If you feel you can't move him then his management must change otherwise he'll be unhappy for 6 months of the year and so will you.
good points.. either I try something new or we both suffer for the winter which isn't fair to him
 

TPO

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the barn doesn't use round bales so they get a few flakes each in the morning.. they're not out super long unfortunately and I think it's probably not enough hay.. again I hate to be nit picky and don't want to mirco manage them but I guess I should speak up for the welfare of my horse

It sounds like they aren't getting enough to eat. Depending on where your horse is on the pecking order he may be getting even less.

Hopefully the yard are putting out at least 4 piles with distance between them so that the lowest horse can always get something.

Sounds like hunger (possibly affecting digestive system/ulcers) could be affecting him mentally and physically.

How long are they turned out for?

I know different countries do things differently, but less than half an acre for 3 horses wouldn't be considered acceptable in the UK. I appreciate due to different weathers different systems are in place but at the very least as close to adlib forage as possible should be available.

If they aren't out long that's more time standing in stabled. What do you do with your horses? How much time is spent "doing" things?

Given you have 2 other horses, I'm assuming on the same routine, it'll be hard to have enough hours to do things with all 3 horses to make up for the amount of time stabled.

I think you have to speak to the yard to get more forage for turnout, your horse brought in first and linger turnout if possible, to see if that makes a difference

Otherwise I'd go for vet and if thst doesn't find anything it would be a other yard that's more horse-centric but that does sound like it's an exhausted option already
 

Widgeon

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he is a lil sensitive boy so very well could be... would it be better for him to be by himself rather than have access to social interactions

I don't think anyone can answer this for you - under the circumstances he may feel happier "alone" with friends to talk to on his terms over the fence. It's just about making the best of what you have. I certainly wouldn't judge you for trying him "out on his own", so long as he has others close by to talk to.

Half an acre is awfully small for three - mine is out on 0.6 acres of his own (with neighbours) and I wouldn't say that was particularly big, just adequate.

As an alternative could you try him with just one buddy, or a different buddy? Perhaps he doesn't get on with his current companions, as @Gloi says.

I think you might need to experiment a bit to find the best way out of this one - good luck.
 

magicmoments

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You've done the hard part of working out it is change of paddock. I would change one thing at a time, to help give a clue to what is causing it, although it could well be a combination of things. Why not ask the yard what they would find easier to do, in respect of the suggestions you've been given by other posters, and start with that, give it a few weeks, etc, and move on.
Stress at any time can cause problems ridden as tension builds in their body which can make ridden work uncomfortable because their muscles or tummy could be painful.
I was struggling to work out why a horse I had on loan was desperate to get out of the stable in bad weather when others went out, but was ok in nice weather. Finally it clicked in my head that he felt safe in his stable if the weather was calm, but only felt safe when out with his pals if the weather was turbulent.
Your horse is telling you something, please try to work out what it is.
 

ycbm

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I visited 10+ barns in my search for a new place. I went as far as an hour from my house and this was the only stable that fit all my needs (room for 3 horses, water in the winter, access to hay all the time, stalls maintained to a proper standard, grass paddocks, well maintained indoor arena, no automatic waterers, no riding school, no children staff, etc.). Do you suggest I separate him from my other horses and move him 2+ hours away?

If he continues to tell you that he hates being where he is and you can't change things where he is, then I'm afraid yes. He doesn't need an indoor school, you do. He needs more space, how clear can he make it? You've had the same thing happen every time he's been placed in too small a paddock.

His behaviour under saddle is likely to change because the stress is giving him ulcers which hurt while he is ridden. Has he ever been scoped for ulcers?
.
 

Meredith

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An example of horse telling you what they like.
A friend of a friend had loads of money and sent her horse to the very smart full livery stable with horse walker indoor and out door schools, the best care, good grazing etc etc, you couldn’t fault it but
the horse was difficult to handle, difficult to ride and generally not himself as he’d been at a previous yard.

The owner moved house and the nearest yard was a country farm with barns converted to stables, few ‘facilities’ but with great hacking and a huge variety of horses and ponies. The horse was a changed character, willing, easy to do and returned to competing and winning.

Unfortunately often we get it wrong trying to get it right.
Horses tell us everything as best they can, it’s up to us to read the signs.
I think your horse is telling you things need to change. I hope you can make him happy.
 

BronwenSurf

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If he continues to tell you that he hates being where he is and you can't change things where he is, then I'm afraid yes. He doesn't need an indoor school, you do. He needs more space, how clear can he make it? You've had the same thing happen every time he's been placed in too small a paddock.

His behaviour under saddle is likely to change because the stress is giving him ulcers which hurt while he is ridden. Has he ever been scoped for ulcers?
.
He gets nervous ridden outside and is much more comfortable in an indoor school for most of the time I ride him, the indoor arena is for him, not me.
 
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